$700 Amplifier that sounds identical to SOTA amplifierIf

CGabriel

CGabriel

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Dec 13, 2013
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Location
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We love to argue about the superiority of tube versus solid state, class A versus A/B or class D, brand X versus brand Y. We are all so certain of our opinions.

What if there existed a sub $1000 amplifier that was the equal of ANY SOTA amplifier regardless of its brand, design or cost? What if we subjected this miracle amplifier to subjective tests by the finest golden eared experts in all of audiophilia? Surely, THEY could identify the imposter.

If such a feat were truly possible, wouldn't the creator of the modest amplifier be one of audio's greatest geniuses? And what would the implications be regarding our firmly held beliefs?

And what if this actually happened more than 30 years ago? I remember it. Do you?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge#iMXCETXRtyvXQYxF.97
 
I remember it very well , BC was always part genius, part showman , part marketing show , Rumor has it the FTC pre conditioning test of 1/3 power for 30 mins before bench testing was devised to kill his phase linear amplifiers which were part amplifier , part molotov cocktail and would melt during pre conditioning .. :)

I can whole heartedly confirm they were, err, a wee bit unstable and had SOA issues...

That aside, we did multiple comparisons with 2 of his models back then and they were subjectively superior sounding to a ML9 costing significantly more , this much later led to getting one of his New at the time Sunfire reference amp, where again it sent the highly rated BAT Vk500 packing...

So yeah .....

Bob can Make it happen, not without a show thou :)



regards
 
Since Bob 'retired,' he decided to build and sell tube amps. I still have a pair of Phase Linear 400 Series Two amps sitting on a shelf. I believe the Series Two came out after Bob sold Phase Linear and the Series Two addressed the instability issues that plagued the original design. People used to refer to Phase Linear as Flame Linear. When Bob first started Carver, his first products looked exactly like Phase Linear amps and preamps.
 
Over the years I had several different Carver or Sunfire amps. My favorite one was the Sunfire Signature II 625x2. It was head and shoulders above the rest of the Carver or Sunfire lines in sound quality. It was in my system for quite some time. I put many amps against it and the Sig II either held its own or came out on top. It was not the same sounding as the other Sunfire like the 300x2. The only reason I sold it was to get the McIntosh mc402 otherwise it would have still been in my system.

Only one one small thing on some of the Carver or Sunfire amps, need to watch the caps or have them recap especially the Sunfire power supply.
 
For the Carver line, my fave was the 500T. I thought the 500T at the time was very musical and I am a sucker for a VU. He has a 500 also but the T was more to my liking.
 
Are new Carver amps (Cherry and Black Beauty) still available? I remember Bob designed some new amps a couple of years ago and then Emotiva bought the rights or the company or something like that. Then the whole deal fell apart.
 
I've always had a thing for Carver gear and have sworn to myself years ago to eventually recreate my oldest brother's Carver system TX-11, C-1, DTL-100, M-400t) one day including the JBL L112's he had. That system had the biggest impact on me and my love for not only music, but stereo equipment as well.

Now that I have the TX-11a and enjoy its sound very much, I've been wondering about something else... I've always fancied the M-500t and have been wondering if the sound quality of that amp would surpass the sound quality of my Wyred 4 Sound ST-250. Obviously, the 500t has more power, but I'm not worried about that at all. It's the overall sound quality that I'm interested in. That and the great looks of that particular amp with those meters.

Without the blue LED's though...

1212-7.jpg
 
This brings back memories for me too... In the 1980s, my roommate in college had one of these carver amps. I was impressed and it was my first intro to "hi-fi." In the late 1990s, I owned 2-Channel Sunfire (2 x 300W) amp for many years enjoyed. Around 2004, I bought a Sunfire 5-channel amp (Signature 5 x 400w) for surround sound/stereo in a 2nd system. It has been in continuous use since then and still runs "cool" and sound good... I have really enjoyed all of these Bob Carver designs.
 
Dizzie said:
Are new Carver amps (Cherry and Black Beauty) still available? I remember Bob designed some new amps a couple of years ago and then Emotiva bought the rights or the company or something like that. Then the whole deal fell apart.
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Yes they are and being built in the US. Bob took control back after the Emotiva deal collapsed and now sells his amps and speakers direct and through selected dealers. http://www.bobcarvercorp.com/for-your-listening-room
 
Thanks Bill.

Looks like the new model has KT-120 tubes and more power along with a price increase.
 
I find it interesting that Bob Carver claimed he could make a solid state amp with sound that could not be differentiated from the best tube amps, but now has chosen to manufacture and sell tube amps exclusively. :doubtful: All he basically did with his infamous 't' mod which emulated tube amps was to insert a resistor of about one ohm in series with the amplifier's output just before the binding post. That was his method for increasing the output impedance of his 't' amps to be more similar to a typical tube amp which uses output transformers.
 
There was quite a bit more that went on inside those "t" amps than just a resistor at the outputs.

And Bob Carver always had a love and fascination with tube amps. It's just that when he was starting out, solid state was also just coming out and everyone was going that way, hence the introduction of the Phase Linear 700 amp. So in a sense, he was forced into SS amp design because that's where technology was going. Now that he's made his fame and fortune, he can go back to his love of designing and building tube amps, or in his own words, he has come "full circle".

audio.bill said:
I find it interesting that Bob Carver claimed he could make a solid state amp with sound that could not be differentiated from the best tube amps, but now has chosen to manufacture and sell tube amps exclusively. :doubtful: All he basically did with his infamous 't' mod which emulated tube amps was to insert a resistor of about one ohm in series with the amplifier's output just before the binding post. That was his method for increasing the output impedance of his 't' amps to be more similar to a typical tube amp which uses output transformers.
Click to expand...
 
Back in the day I sold Carver. We sold quite a few amps etc., however I was never really a fan. I never liked the sound of Carver amps back then. Tons of power but if I recall correctly I always felt they were very bright and thin sounding. And I do not remember an amp that we had more problems with than his cube.
 
My brother bought his M-400t (cube) brand new in 1983, and sold it in 2003. That was 20 straight years of constant blasting, in stereo mode for about 15 of those years, and bridged mono for the last 5 years. Not once did he ever have a problem with that amp.

In fact, other than the DTL-100 dying on him after about 12 years (maybe longer), he never had an issue with any of his Carver gear.
 
Which is very cool. When you sell them you see the ones that people bring back in. With any decent equipment the failure rate is fairly low. Just in my experience it was higher on the cube (not Carver in general) than other products we carried.

I liked the Carver line in general, especially the tuners, but personally I was not a fan of the sound of their amplifiers, back then. I never had one in my personal system. A couple friends did. I did have many different amplifiers. I built many Hafler's and had them in my system quite often, some McIntosh's, Audionics, Nakamichi (Stasis), Yamaha, etc. It very well could have been that they just did not match well with KEF speakers....

Again, I'm old so my memory could be completely faded
 
audio.bill said:
I find it interesting that Bob Carver claimed he could make a solid state amp with sound that could not be differentiated from the best tube amps, but now has chosen to manufacture and sell tube amps exclusively. :doubtful: All he basically did with his infamous 't' mod which emulated tube amps was to insert a resistor of about one ohm in series with the amplifier's output just before the binding post. That was his method for increasing the output impedance of his 't' amps to be more similar to a typical tube amp which uses output transformers.
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With his production amplfiers , yes ! but not with the amp used in the SP comparisons. Bob has always liked Tooby amps, SS amps is where the business is thou...
 
I guess I'll find out soon enough about how these old Carver amps sound compared to newer designs such as my digital W4S ST-250. Though this in itself is an old amp, it's a totally different technology, and I'm quite happy with the sound I get from this little W4S amp.

What I have coming in the mail (FedEx), is a totally refurbished Carver M-500t signed by the ol'e boy himself, Bob Carver. On top of that, it has what the Carver community calls the "MkII" modification.

Now the M-500t was supposed to be the most musical amp in the M-series lineup. The MkII mods tighten up and extend the bass, provide a fuller mid-bass and midrange, smooth out the highs, better transients, a lot less distortion, a lot less crosstalk, a little more forward sound stage, and a LOT more power output. Stock power is 251w @ 8 ohms, 330w @ 4 ohms. With the MkII mods, it's now rated 395w @ 8 ohms and 420w @ 4 ohms.

The extra power doesn't really concern me too much since I live on the 3rd floor of an apartment complex. What I care about is the overall sound, and to be honest, the looks of the amp in general.

p2192524417-5.jpg
 
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