5m interconnects

sharkmouth said:
Good advice, as is the general consensus.
Click to expand...

Lets dispel this myth once and for all. There is no basis for these statements scientifically or subjectively. Conductance on cables, 2m or 50m will be indistinguishable. EXCEPT if improperly shielded..in which case either length is bad.

2 cables, properly shielded against EMF AND RFI/ distance will not matter

2 cables not properly shielded. The shorter cable will sound better because it is in effect a shorter antenna. It is picking up noise but in comparison to a 50m antenna? Get the picture.

I don't make this crap up. Its science. Its sort of like cable break in. Some call it a myth. Others swear by it. Well, its not actually the wire but the field on the shielding. Some call it the skin effect. The copper or silver wire does not change. What changes is the field.
 
By the way, from the main power grid to our electrical systems in our homes, miles and hundreds of miles of separation.
What they do; power transformers every some distance.

If we do that with our wires @ home, can we not improve efficiency?
And what is efficiency in electrical audio parlance?
 
NorthStar said:
Should we ask them; the audio experts? ...With links, names, measurements, all that jazz.
Click to expand...

been there - done that - the "audio experts" will believe what they have determined to be in keeping with the audiophile doctrine. Short cables. Matched speaker wires. etc. Well, I believed or followed too. And then the electrical experts (also audiophiles) took me to school. Wow..

Now don't get me wrong...if something causes signal loss, it will be audible. No argument. cheap 18ga lamp cord run 100ft is going to sound like crap compared to 10q wrapped and shielded speaker cable. Why ? 90% is noise picked up in the run which can translate to loss of high frequency and or added noise ratio.

Anyway, I will stop before I ruffle too many feathers. Do the blind tests though. Run a 10ft speaker cable (shielded) and another 100ft. DO NOT COIL THE 100ft line...that creates an electromagnetic field and invalidates the test. Just run it. keep the speakers where you normally do. there will be no imbalance. Audible or measurable.
 
Alright Rob, lets get the scientific/electrified people experts on the matter and hear what is preferable; short interconnects and long speaker cables, or long interconnects and short speaker cables.

I want to know for sure, and I know a whole bunch more who also want to know.
{Right now I believe that longer interconnects with short speaker wires/cables are best. That is if you don't have the choice to have both of them short.}

* Give me some time to research my audio bible, plus the audio forums where I participate and where some of the best audio designers are also present.
This is great subject; it has great beneficial merit for everybody.
 
Hey, just so you guys know...This is DISCUSSION, not argument. The forum doesn't give voice inflection, etc. I don't deny anyone their beliefs or opinion. I am just sharing things I have learned and am learning. I have learned "stuff" here like using quality cables, equipment, burn in, etc. All valid and I appreciate the wealth of info. I am just sharing my learnings and why it should not matter. NOW..in practice, stranger things are true in audio. equipment burn in, power cables (some cheapies don't consider it valid and I know first hand from you guys and trying it - it matters).

So just wanted to clarify !
 
NorthStar said:
Alright Rob, lets get the scientific/electrified people experts on the matter and hear what is preferable; short interconnects and long speaker cables, or long interconnects and short speaker cables.

I want to know for sure, and I know a whole bunch more who also want to know.
{Right now I believe that longer interconnects with short speaker wires/cables are best. That is if you don't have the choice to have both of them short.}

* Give me some time to research my audio bible, plus the audio forums where I participate and where some of the best audio designers are also present.
This is great subject; it has great beneficial merit for everybody.
Click to expand...

Couple of things to read
Dielectric Absorption in Cables Debunked | Audioholics

Speaker Cable Length Differences: Do They Matter? | Audioholics

Prepare to be geeked out...

Given that electrical impulses travel down the speaker wire at near the speed of light (982,080,000 ft/sec), it takes 8ns (.000000008 seconds) for the LFE signal to travel down an 8ft cable, and 50ns to travel down a 50' cable.

Now, one cycle of a 200Hz sine wave (the highest frequency produced by most subs) takes 5ms (.005 seconds) to produce. This means that once the sub on the 8' cable starts to produce this cycle, the one on the 50' cable won't produce this signal until 42ns later. (it took 8ns for the signal to reach the first sub, and will take an additional 42ns to reach the second sub).

To figure out the phase error produced, we take .000000042 and divide it by .0125. We get .00000336. Multiply this by 360 (degrees) to get our phase error: .00000336 * 360 = .00121 degrees.

So, is a .00121 degree phase error audible? I'm pretty sure it is not.

thinking about it from a different angle. Given the speed of sound is roughly 1027fps (depending on temperature, humidity, and pressure), lets say one sub is 8 feet away from our ear. Lets say the other is 8 feet one inch away from our other ear.

Time for one 200Hz cycle to travel 8 feet: 7.79ms.
Time for one 200Hz cycle to travel 8.08 feet (8' 1"): 7.87ms.

This gives us a .00008 second phasse error.

.00008 / .0125 = .0064. .0064 * 360 = 2.3 degree phase error.

So, my point is that having one speaker misplaced by just one inch will generate almost 2000 times the phase error that the extra 42' of cable will.

Edit: Think about THAT the next time certain cable companies try to sell you "time corrected" cable.

Ask Dr. A! Does Speaker Cable Gauge Matter? | Audioholics

More proof that IC's should be shorter than speaker cable
Is it better to have short interconnects and long speaker cables or visa-versa? : Empirical Audio


Know why some audio dealers want you to run longer IC's and shorter speaker cables ? Price ! A roll of 12awg is cheap. What do quality IC's cost at 15ft or better? Make sense?
 
Okay !!!

from a PERSONAL standpoint, I would keep my IC's as short as I can (and do) and use good quality 10awg or 12awg speaker cable.

Mine are 10ft long and have better specs than these

12AWG Zip Cord
Cardas Quadlink-Five C*
Kimber Kable 4TC*
Kimber Kable 8TC*
Goertz MI 1*

So easy to make, its not even funny and they look cool...heavy too...

Low-Inductance DIY Braided Hi-Fi Speaker Cables
 
BlueMcIntosh said:
Where r u Steve?
Click to expand...

wow!!! here i am .this thread blew up ,what happened, i was working all day.lol.
lot of sound advise and things to think about. truth is for the kind of money it would cost to do a 15-20ft run of the interconnects i want to use, i could buy
1. a nice phonostage
2. a grado reference 1 and arche headshell
3. used pair of absolute copper zens, and another silver ref2 interconnect
4. sophia royal princess 300b's and shuguang we 300b replicas
5. a pair of zu speakers.

the list goes on lmao!!! but thanks for the advise everyone, and i have the room to set the equip back and put the speakers out far enough that there is nothing in between them anyway. and bob(absolares) advise i would definitely listen to . i seen all the long runs and cabling he has in his studio . im sure he has tried it all. thanks again.
 
Absolare said:
Steve,

Be careful. If you run rca's longer than say 2M you run the risk of losing both high frequency and low frequency (mostly high) information. I used to do it all the time until I realized that there is definitely a loss of information when running long single ended cables. If you are running long runs balanced is the only way to go. If you have to run rca's then just bite the bullet and keep all the runs short, (under 2M), even if you have to keep all of your gear between the speakers.
Click to expand...

sharkmouth said:
Good advice, as is the general consensus.
Click to expand...

ohbythebay said:
Lets dispel this myth once and for all. There is no basis for these statements scientifically or subjectively. Conductance on cables, 2m or 50m will be indistinguishable. EXCEPT if improperly shielded..in which case either length is bad.

2 cables, properly shielded against EMF AND RFI/ distance will not matter

2 cables not properly shielded. The shorter cable will sound better because it is in effect a shorter antenna. It is picking up noise but in comparison to a 50m antenna? Get the picture.

I don't make this crap up. Its science. Its sort of like cable break in. Some call it a myth. Others swear by it. Well, its not actually the wire but the field on the shielding. Some call it the skin effect. The copper or silver wire does not change. What changes is the field.
Click to expand...

Well done, that is the general consensus, as in shielding can & does make a difference, whatever you read into that, not quite! Every cable I buy I am aware of the gauge composition & shielding. I'd go to bat & say all who have excessively long interconnects, have them either on a hard wood floor or on cable elevators that remove them from anything that could have a harmful effect. Hell, at times past I have had my speaker cables suspended from the floor with nylon fishing line as well as having the cables & power chords held apart with the same. Anyone that is lost to what I have just referred to well............I'm open to new things, thats how scientists learn, they have to rationalise the attainable
 
Sharkmouth !! Good post...

Funny story to share from another board. We have all heard of cables and such picking up radio frequencies, sometimes actually hearing radio stations faintly through our systems. This guy had an extra long set of phono IC's...and he is picking up a Christian broadcast on them LOUD AND CLEAR hearing the words " God is reaching out to you...are you going to heed his call..etc etc."

He is replacing the cables but I think the message would spook the crap out of me...LOL
 
ohbythebay said:
Sharkmouth !! Good post...

Funny story to share from another board. We have all heard of cables and such picking up radio frequencies, sometimes actually hearing radio stations faintly through our systems. This guy had an extra long set of phono IC's...and he is picking up a Christian broadcast on them LOUD AND CLEAR hearing the words " God is reaching out to you...are you going to heed his call..etc etc."

He is replacing the cables but I think the message would spook the crap out of me...LOL
Click to expand...
lol!! i pick up marine radios from all the boats around here, but just when the preamp is muted or the sound is completely off. as soon as i give it one click of the volume it goes away. i often know the size of the swells or how many knots the wind is blowing before i put on the first record.
 
Rob, I tried to locate online few "cable" articles from my AIG Canadian audio mags but to no avail.
I don't understand why they don't make it avail to the general public. ...I am disappointed by AIG (Audio Ideas Guide - Andrew Marshall).

On of them articles is => Making The Connection, Part Deux: A Closer Look At The Role Of Loudspeaker Cables.
By James H. Hayward

* Retired from Bell Canada Special Services Engineering and Operations Groups, Jim Hayward is a Ryerson Electronics Technology graduate whose professional specialty has been data communications and radio systems. He is also a pianist and longtime audiophile, and taught at Radio College of Canada in Toronto.

Quote: "Keep your speaker cables short! Power loss in a cable is equal to the product of its resistance, R, and the square of the current running through it. Therefore, dynamic range suffers accordingly. If running longer interconnect cables is an option, do it. Just remember to avoid high output impedance preamps when considering that approach.

Another way to minimize speaker cable power loss is to use more cables. That's right, bi-wire or bi-amp your system. Not only does this reduce the current in each cable but it provides significant sonic benefits by reducing intermodulation distortion as well. Bi-amping is expensive but, in my experience, the improvement is stunning."

_______________

- And this short pdf article (Bryston): http://bryston.com/PDF/newsletters/Bryston_Newsletter_V5_2.pdf

- Plus this link with several related books and articles: Jon_Risch's Web Site

P.S. I was being humorous regarding Audioholics' articles by Gene and Clint.
I am very familiar with them both. ...And with their forums as well. ...For many many years.
Some stuff is fine for reference, other stuff is best to discard. ...Pretty much the way life goes in general.

And Rob, I highly appreciate the time and effort spent on your research and sharing with us. It's all beneficial, and my respect towards you as well.
 
Ah...thank you...and it is really up to you (the general you as in the audio person reading) how you want to deal with this but think about the other things that make common sense, okay ? IC's over two meters are recommended to be balanced as opposed to unbalanced, yes? why ? Phono cables should be 1meter max , why ? Signal degradation

a 10awg speaker cable has no discernable signal loss with an 8 ohm speaker load out to 200ft.

Also, think of the signal voltage from a line level device to a preamp (small) vs the higher voltage from a power amp out to the speakers.

Based on that simple logic, would you keep you equipment and IC's close and your speakers out in the room or would you keep your speakers within 3ft of your amp and you components around the room ? Ahhhh...now you get the idea

If you did it the other way around, then this is the ideal system including speaker placement ...LOL

stackinghifi.jpg
 
Yes, it isn't so simple. Many factors come in line; amplifiers' type being used, preamps, sources, etc. We simply cannot generalize as there are many different situations using different electronics and where one option might be preferable over another.

Earlier I was at another audio site and where few members mentioned the various type of electronics requiring this or that and not automatically the same for everyone and everything.

Each case is unique, and in this case here with Steve, the question is what kind of electronics he's using in his own setup.
...5 meters interconnects, bla bla ...
 
And going back to the earlier question my friend...I already said, a 5m interconnect is fine and gave him a cost effective solution :D

15ft pair , with techflex $75.75

Stereo Cables at Blue Jeans Cable

I have the same in 12ft length for low capacitance (phono cables for my phono stage to the amp)

capacitance down to an extremely low 12.2 pF/ft - so his whole cable would be 183pF

Then all are happy !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top