Yep. At low frequencies it's less about the speaker(s) and much more about the room. Multiple subs allow some room smoothing of the lowest octaves to reduce the worst of the nulls and peaks created by room modes.
2-Channel Subwoofer Integration
- Thread starter LenWhite
- Start date
Yep. At low frequencies it's less about the speaker(s) and much more about the room. Multiple subs allow some room smoothing of the lowest octaves to reduce the worst of the nulls and peaks created by room modes.
TheGemState
New member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2018
- Messages
- 42
The method described in the tread is as much about the mid range frequency as it is the low frequency. When connecting the subs to the high level input using speaker terminals the full frequency range is going thru the amp and the main speakers. The proposed method in this thread says by only sending the mid to high frequency to the mains and letting the subs handing the lows you improve the mid range on the mains.
When I first heard of this method of sub integration using a crossover to only send mid/high to the mains I disagreed with it. My thoughts were is no way am I not using the full frequency range on my speakers when I spend so much money on them. I was wrong.
I have tried several methods to integrate subs and I have been successful using different methods. However when I used a high pass filter to the main speakers there was a significant improvement in the mid range which you can not get by connecting subs to the speaker terminals.
The draw back is adding additional equipment (crossover) to the signal path which was a concern of mine. I tested with and without crossover in place, no subs, just main speakers to see if the crossover was changing the sound. I could not tell a difference using the JL Audio CR-1.
My current setup:
Main Speakers: Aerial Acoustics 20T V2
Subs: JL Audio F212
Crossover: JL Audio CR-1. 78 Hz. 24dB/octave.
Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
u-sound
Active member
that sums it it up pretty well.
in a ideal world there is only one way:
active xo with 2 passive subs in the front and 2 passive in the back, all driven by the same type of amps as the main speakers.
put an active bassabsorber in all 4 corners to make things perfect.
simple as that. unfortunately a very expensive way.
then we can go easier ways such as active subs or less subs or different connections and it might still provide a pleasant outcome. just keep in mind it is a compromise.
chops
Active member
I'll say it again... a LOT of mis-information flying around here.
u-sound
Active member
just as a lot of frequencies are flying around doubled without xo.
hey it makes it a little woofier wich was the intention somehow, so who cares
hey it makes it a little woofier wich was the intention somehow, so who cares
chops
Active member
Again... Wrong
u-sound
Active member
you woke up today and after 30 minutes everything turned out to be flying around wrong, lol.
what else is wrong? let it out, give it a name!
what else is wrong? let it out, give it a name!
chops
Active member
Whatever man. I'm not wasting anymore time with you and your mis-informed nonsense.
u-sound
Active member
hey good morning
you were calling everything and everyone wrong for this and other threads long before i wrote anything.
you should articulate your concerns, so everyone can think about.
otherwise everybody is accused out in the wind.
naturally there is multiple opinions about how to put things together.
you like active binding posts, you are not alone!
you were calling everything and everyone wrong for this and other threads long before i wrote anything.
you should articulate your concerns, so everyone can think about.
otherwise everybody is accused out in the wind.
naturally there is multiple opinions about how to put things together.
you like active binding posts, you are not alone!
a.wayne
Well-known member
Apologies for not responding , i had lost track of this thread until now ..!
a.wayne
Well-known member
Thanks for posting the links , multi subwoofers is nothing new or recent back in the 70’s many played around with multiple subwoofers in an attempt to get quadraphonic sound “right” , i much later learned such multi sub discoveries or swarms ” were invented by “Geddes”
Do agree a sub per channel is the way to go , a single sub needs to be placed equidistance from mains best is dead center to avoid localization ..
Regards
As was made clear by the link AJ posted, multiple subs work well (probably even best) fed a mono signal. The purpose is not to provide separate bass “channels”, it is to try to provide the most even frequency response throughout the listening space.
Whether your system works best using high and low pass filters or just a high pass filter on the sub(s) depends on many factors and there is no universal answer; this is a situation where one should trust one’s ears and perception.
Whether your system works best using high and low pass filters or just a high pass filter on the sub(s) depends on many factors and there is no universal answer; this is a situation where one should trust one’s ears and perception.
a.wayne
Well-known member
If subjectively..!
many different ways to approach the cat, everything works until it doesn't ..!
Technically, bandwidth limiting of drivers for proper integration is essential and necessary ..
Regards
many different ways to approach the cat, everything works until it doesn't ..!
Technically, bandwidth limiting of drivers for proper integration is essential and necessary ..
Regards
My preamp has a subwoofer output.
And I have the possibility to cut or to let the full frequency range to reach the main speakers.
Without any doubt, I like it much more when I don't cut and let the full frequency pass.
I don't know if the perception of better mid-band can result from a feeling of greater detail that can be misleading
Just my 1/2 cent
u-sound
Active member
Wilson Audio ActivXO & WATCH Dog Subwoofer | Review - Part-Time Audiophile
interesting read, reflects a 100% my opinion. my dealer has the very same set up and also the rel-stack to compare.
interesting read, reflects a 100% my opinion. my dealer has the very same set up and also the rel-stack to compare.
TheGemState
New member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2018
- Messages
- 42
Thanks for sharing your experience. What sounds best is certainly preference and depending what speakers and subs you are using may get different results. This is why I listed my equipment.
However speakers are designed around a frequency range, as the frequency moves outside of the optimal range the total harmonic distortion increased. Assuming the speakers and subs are of similar quality, meaning at their optimal frequency they have similar THD, an 8" driver is not going produce low frequency bass as clean at the 12 driver in most applications.
This is not even mentioning the improvements when sending designated frequency ranges thru separate amplifiers. Check out Vandersteen's System Nine. I heard this system and it is fantastic. It applies the same concept as discussed here.
To quote from his website, "When Richard Vandersteen heard the dramatic reduction in distortion realized by his patented Perfect-Piston[emoji769] drivers (US patent #8320604) in the original Model Seven, it was clear that the next frontier of performance would only be achieved by designing a completely new beyond-the-state-of-the-art high-pass amplifier from the ground up.
Integrating the high-pass in the power amplifier is the ultimate realization of Richard Vandersteen’s approach to powered-bass system performance. Where many systems merely add “more bass” with subwoofers, a high-pass system in which the frequencies above 100Hz go to the power amplifier while the low frequencies only are passed to powered subwoofers is far more ideal. This creates the flattest frequency response at the crossover between speakers and subs for unsurpassed musical continuity, and it also improves the performance of the main amplifier by relieving it of the duty of reproducing the deepest bass frequencies. The result is beautifully improved midrange and treble performance from the main amp, coupled with unsurpassed dynamic clarity and bass authority."
Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
My experience with subwoofers is as follows:
1. Two subs are better than one. Always.
2. Manufacturers will tell you that their speakers don’t need subs. Yet every one of those speakers will sound better when using subs. (Remember that if a manufacturer tells you that you need subwoofers, they may lose a sale!)
3. Properly integrating sub/subs with the mains require technical knowledge and patience. The reality is that many folks don’t have either and the results are poor! (But they don’t know because they only rely on their ears!)
4. Active crossovers work best. They relieve your main amps and speakers of the low frequencies and let the subs do their job. (Don’t listen to the “purists” who complain about the extra box; more than likely those are the same guys who only rely on their ears - see above).
Think of speakers as if they were electronic components. An integrated amp works in many situations but separates (preamp, stereo amp or mono amps) can always work/integrate better. Getting a speaker to do everything with just one box is the equivalent of having an integrated amplifier.
1. Two subs are better than one. Always.
2. Manufacturers will tell you that their speakers don’t need subs. Yet every one of those speakers will sound better when using subs. (Remember that if a manufacturer tells you that you need subwoofers, they may lose a sale!)
3. Properly integrating sub/subs with the mains require technical knowledge and patience. The reality is that many folks don’t have either and the results are poor! (But they don’t know because they only rely on their ears!)
4. Active crossovers work best. They relieve your main amps and speakers of the low frequencies and let the subs do their job. (Don’t listen to the “purists” who complain about the extra box; more than likely those are the same guys who only rely on their ears - see above).
Think of speakers as if they were electronic components. An integrated amp works in many situations but separates (preamp, stereo amp or mono amps) can always work/integrate better. Getting a speaker to do everything with just one box is the equivalent of having an integrated amplifier.
a.wayne
Well-known member
1. Not every loudspeaker benefit from powered subs ..!
2. Active Xover have their warts , many times Passive into mains and active into subs are proven to be the best way forward ..
3. Integrating subs , into room and speakers be it active or passive is a very complex deal and IMO not easily discuss in such shallow discussions, your above over simplifications is just that
In no way does one path fits all situations and sadly we all have to use our ears to listen regardless of how many test instruments are used ..
Balancing the audio scale can be very elusive ...!!!!
Regards
In case you missed my first sentence, that has been MY experience. Whatever your opinion is, it doesn’t change my experience and quite frankly is immaterial to me.