Are subwoofers bad for music?

I remember I first bought a sub...I was used to listen to a cheap small common speakers and when I bought a subwoofer and first time using it, it felt heaven. I was like a child discovered something awesome for the first time...like everything is new to my ears. :)

On the downside, I later on realize that there is something lacking with the quality of sound. Subs, for me, is more of like max bass and max treble...something is lacking. It's hard to balance the sound in general.
 
In my opinion I would say: “Definitely, NO!”, but it requires some investment and time to optimize. When I bought my Velodyne DD-18 many, many years ago I was really surprised by the overall impact on my musical experience. Not only the low frequencies were positively affected, but also mid and high frequencies clearly improved. As the DD-18 is an active subwoofer, I was actually experiencing the effect of bi-amping. Note: more response in the low, also means more troubles with roomacoustics, so you need DSP here. Furthermore, you need to be able to enable a ‘flawless’ integration between subwoofer and main speakers, otherwise it might not bring you what you want. In my current front speaker system, which by design has two subtowers with 4 x 15” woofers each, for the lowest frequencies, I have a similar configuration. Four mono amplifiers for driving each of the four towers (2 xsub and 2 x main) all controlled via central DSP. I still however have my DD-18 which Inow only use during movies.

Best regards, Jan
 
I've owned a number of very good speakers in my life, but only one actually produced bass that got my attention. That was back in the 1980's with the Infinity Beta system that had separate bass and separate mid-high frequency towers. It's been way too long to remember how good the overall sound presentation was, but I very much doubt if it could match the system I have now.

I recently installed a JL Audio F212v2 and CR-1 Active Crossover in my audio system. The bass is now not only prodigious, but after adjusting for phase alignment using the crossover has a timbre rivaling the main speakers. The Raidho D3 imaging has always been spectacular in my acoustically designed listening room, but now the mids and highs have airiness and definition that makes the instruments and voices sound more lifelike.

JL Audio customer service has been phenomenally patient and knowledgeable helping me integrate the subwoofer with the main speakers. Subwoofer positioning and an active crossover are critical to integration as is phase aligning the subwoofer to the main speakers. There's an excellent series of articles on subwoofers by a retired JL Audio senior technical support engineer here. http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

Some very knowledgeable people believe there are few speakers at any price point that wouldn't benefit from a well integrated subwoofer AND crossover. Relieving the stereo amplifier and main speakers from having to produce deep bass reduces distortion that allows both to produce better quality mids and highs. And the subwoofer produces bass most speakers simply cannot.

I'm now a believer.
 
The last few years I was buying full range speakers and getting frustrated when my room would roll off steeply around 80 hz with a recovery down 10 db at 60 then down 40db by 25hz. Some 'Full range' speakers were -40 db by 70 hz! anyhow I got my dolly and shlepped my massive dual 12" powered sub from the tv room into my basement listening room and I was able to get really smooth even bass down to 20 hz in less than a half hr of positioning. I hated it! seriously, my house rattles and creaks, heat ducts were wailing, furniture was rattling. it sucked PERIOD

My experiment cured me though and i'm quite happy with how musical a pair of speakers with smooth roll off after 50-60hz sounds. Maybe you guys living in bomb shelters can handle subs but I don't like listening to how crummy my house was built when i'm trying to enjoy music.
 
steve59 said:
The last few years I was buying full range speakers and getting frustrated when my room would roll off steeply around 80 hz with a recovery down 10 db at 60 then down 40db by 25hz. Some 'Full range' speakers were -40 db by 70 hz! anyhow I got my dolly and shlepped my massive dual 12" powered sub from the tv room into my basement listening room and I was able to get really smooth even bass down to 20 hz in less than a half hr of positioning. I hated it! seriously, my house rattles and creaks, heat ducts were wailing, furniture was rattling. it sucked PERIOD

My experiment cured me though and i'm quite happy with how musical a pair of speakers with smooth roll off after 50-60hz sounds. Maybe you guys living in bomb shelters can handle subs but I don't like listening to how crummy my house was built when i'm trying to enjoy music.
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Simple solution that should cure at least a significant amount of the problems you describe, and provides even better bass:

ASC SubTrap
 
Hhello everyone. IMHO well integrated subwoofers are awesome for music. OTOH poorly integrated subwoofers are a disaster. Using subs to fill in or augment the bottom octave (20-40Hz) really makes the music blossom. The sense of space goes up by at least an order of magnitude. If you hold your hands out pointing that edge of the soundstage with just two speakers and then switch the subs on your arms will move out another 20 degrees.

There are lots of ways to try and integrate the subs. The higher in frequency you go the harder it is to get the subs to blend properly. if the speakers are being ran full range (no X-over) then I suggest keeping the sub X-over below 60Hz but YMMV. If you use the CR-1 to cross over the mains then you can go higher. Last year the at the Lone Star Audiofest I used a two way speaker crossed over at 75Hz with the JC-1 to a pair of JL F113's. The bass was crazy good in that small hotel room. You could play something with stand up bass and no one could detect that he subs were on. Then we could switch to something like Depeche Mode and vibrate the walls.

Good luck with your subwoofer adventure.
 
Sbnx said:
Hhello everyone. IMHO well integrated subwoofers are awesome for music. OTOH poorly integrated subwoofers are a disaster. Using subs to fill in or augment the bottom octave (20-40Hz) really makes the music blossom. The sense of space goes up by at least an order of magnitude. If you hold your hands out pointing that edge of the soundstage with just two speakers and then switch the subs on your arms will move out another 20 degrees.

There are lots of ways to try and integrate the subs. The higher in frequency you go the harder it is to get the subs to blend properly. if the speakers are being ran full range (no X-over) then I suggest keeping the sub X-over below 60Hz but YMMV. If you use the CR-1 to cross over the mains then you can go higher. Last year the at the Lone Star Audiofest I used a two way speaker crossed over at 75Hz with the JC-1 to a pair of JL F113's. The bass was crazy good in that small hotel room. You could play something with stand up bass and no one could detect that he subs were on. Then we could switch to something like Depeche Mode and vibrate the walls.

Good luck with your subwoofer adventure.
Click to expand...

Well said and welcome. Can’t believe how many people encounter on a daily basis who think subs are bad and a sign of weakness in a system. Rubbish. Subs do more for the midrange and evening out the bass in a room than most can imagine. But yes, subs need to be dialed in carefully. Thankfully, the B&W subs and world class Magico subs make it easy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I'm interested in getting better integration with subwoofers on the new Rivals.

When Greg was over on Friday, we both worked with the JL Audio e112 for about an hour, trying different settings (crossover on the sub between 40-60Hz, the Rivals go down to 32Hz at -10dB).

No matter what we did, there was always the sense that there was a separate speaker there providing LF detail and presence. It was pretty distracting in most cases, but there's no doubt that those low frequencies add to the overall weight of the sound.

We were running the Rivals with Greg's stock crossover points, full range (separate pre out to the JL).

At this point I'm thinking of running an experiment with my SVS SB16 Ultra, which is connected to my Anthem pre-pro. Possibly running optical out from the M Scaler into the Anthem's DAC and using the room correction on the full system (correct up to 300 Hz), then re-connecting the Rivals to the tube amp and turning off my Monolith so the Anthem is sending the corrected bass from the pre/pro and the Rivals are getting unaltered full-range signal from the tube amp.

There are 2 obvious problems with this, one being that the DSP is going to filter the subwoofer based on the upstream EQ it applies to the Rivals, so integration is NOT going to be the same when running the Rivals sans-DSP between 32-300Hz. The other is that I'll have 2 pre gain structures to sort out between the tube amp and the Rivals and the Anthem and the subwoofer.

It's things like this that make me want to just enjoy the system as 2 channel only, but I know how much a well-integrated sub can add to the overall sound.

I wish Greg would make an ELF for the Rivals!
 
[FONT=&quot]I've owned a number of very good speakers, but only one actually produced bass that got my attention. That was back in the 1980's with the Infinity Beta system that had separate bass and separate mid-high frequency towers. That is until I recently installed a JL Audio F212v2 and CR1 Active Crossover in my system.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The bass is now not only prodigious, but after adjusting for phase alignment at the crossover point (80 hz.) has a timbre complimenting the main speakers. The Raidho D3 imaging has been spectacular from the beginning, but now the mids and highs have an airiness and definition that makes the instruments and voices sound like they're suspended in air and in the room.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]JL Audio customer service has been phenomenally patient and knowledgeable helping me integrate the subwoofer with the main speakers. It's been too long ago to remember any real detail of the Infinity Beta, just a general impression of awesomeness. But I think the setup I have now has a full range impressiveness not unlike what I remember with the Beta's.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When the room was being designed I was advised there are few speakers at any price point that wouldn't benefit from a well integrated subwoofer with a good crossover. The JL Audio F212v2 and CR-1 have made me a believer.[/FONT]
 
Do you have your subs on the floor? Raising them with ASC SubTraps may help:

http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/subtrap

I wouldn't want to listen to my system with JL subs without those SubTraps supporting them and removing colorations from floor resonance. I also DSP those subs with the microphone calibration.

Integration with my main speakers is virtually perfect; the combined speaker system sounds with a single voice.
 
LenWhite said:
I've owned a number of very good speakers, but only one actually produced bass that got my attention. That was back in the 1980's with the Infinity Beta system that had separate bass and separate mid-high frequency towers. That is until I recently installed a JL Audio F212v2 and CR1 Active Crossover in my system.

The bass is now not only prodigious, but after adjusting for phase alignment at the crossover point (80 hz.) has a timbre complimenting the main speakers. The Raidho D3 imaging has been spectacular from the beginning, but now the mids and highs have an airiness and definition that makes the instruments and voices sound like they're suspended in air and in the room.


JL Audio customer service has been phenomenally patient and knowledgeable helping me integrate the subwoofer with the main speakers. It's been too long ago to remember any real detail of the Infinity Beta, just a general impression of awesomeness. But I think the setup I have now has a full range impressiveness not unlike what I remember with the Beta's.


When the room was being designed I was advised there are few speakers at any price point that wouldn't benefit from a well integrated subwoofer with a good crossover. The JL Audio F212v2 and CR-1 have made me a believer.
Click to expand...

This could be a good option for me. So the CR-1 does not redigitize the signal or in any way degrade your upstream digital components?
 
Getting subs integrated into a stereo or any system can be problematic. I chased my small SVS1000s in my stereo for months. I have them on risers adjusted the cross-over and output levels etc. Ultrafast was over early last summer I think and listened to my system just to hear the Magico A3 speakers. And he preferred the subs turn off. But, I kept playing and adjusting. One Sunday morning I was looking at my two subs next to the wall behind the A3s and started to look at them like just any speaker with a driver. And I started to think about the first reflection point on the wall adjacent to the driver. I had some extra ridged foam strips about 10"x20"x1" and placed them on the walls. The subs just fell into the soundstage. Total integration. So, sometimes just thinking about basic speaker placement and their setup can solve basic subs issues. This may or may not help you. But, something to a least consider.
 
i would try to lower the crossover frequ. If they are 6 db down at 32 then try somewhere between 30-40 no higher than 40. And it from what I understand what you wrote, turn the subs down a little.

If you can hear the subs - they are at a too high of volume. It's a subtle feel you want in a music system - video, no you want slam bam.

JSQT said:
I'm interested in getting better integration with subwoofers on the new Rivals.

When Greg was over on Friday, we both worked with the JL Audio e112 for about an hour, trying different settings (crossover on the sub between 40-60Hz, the Rivals go down to 32Hz at -10dB).

No matter what we did, there was always the sense that there was a separate speaker there providing LF detail and presence. It was pretty distracting in most cases, but there's no doubt that those low frequencies add to the overall weight of the sound.

We were running the Rivals with Greg's stock crossover points, full range (separate pre out to the JL).

At this point I'm thinking of running an experiment with my SVS SB16 Ultra, which is connected to my Anthem pre-pro. Possibly running optical out from the M Scaler into the Anthem's DAC and using the room correction on the full system (correct up to 300 Hz), then re-connecting the Rivals to the tube amp and turning off my Monolith so the Anthem is sending the corrected bass from the pre/pro and the Rivals are getting unaltered full-range signal from the tube amp.

There are 2 obvious problems with this, one being that the DSP is going to filter the subwoofer based on the upstream EQ it applies to the Rivals, so integration is NOT going to be the same when running the Rivals sans-DSP between 32-300Hz. The other is that I'll have 2 pre gain structures to sort out between the tube amp and the Rivals and the Anthem and the subwoofer.

It's things like this that make me want to just enjoy the system as 2 channel only, but I know how much a well-integrated sub can add to the overall sound.

I wish Greg would make an ELF for the Rivals!
Click to expand...
 
Thanks to all of you who replied with feedback & advice.

I worked pretty extensively with this over the afternoon and finally have the Rivals dialed in with dual subs to the point the subs are invisible in the soundstage, which is to say "exactly as they should be!"

Originally Greg & I were working with the JL Audio e112 which, my experience has been, has somewhat wonky manual/analog control dials. We were guesstimating the crossover between 40 & 60 Hz (the dials are ticked in 20dB increments) and we had the volume set around "0" which I assumed was unity. I am convinced now we weren't even in the ballpark with these settings.

This afternoon I started by working with my SB16 Ultra, which has DSP and an app for digital settings. Once I dialed the LPF down to 30Hz and set the slope at 24 dB, I started working the volume way down, to -25 dB (I use -14 for home theater on that sub). This was an excellent start, though it may be placebo I still felt the bass favored the left side of the room just a bit.

Since I only have 1 SB16 Ultra and 1 JL e112, and my dual SB2000s have a bottom crossover setting of 50Hz, I had to place the JL on the opposite side of the SB16, and dialed that in to best approximate the volume and crossover on the SB16. The volume is now between 8 & 9 o'clock; when Greg and I worked with it we were straight up at 12 o'clock. Both the SB16 and JL have the 24 dB rolloff slope so that was a good match.

Finally I turned off the tube amp and only played music through the preamp, set the balance hard left and measured SPL at around 75dB when right up against the grill on the SB16, panned hard right and did the same on the JL (brought the volume down a hair) and matched the 75dB.

Bottom line is now the bass source is invisible in the mix. But it is definitely there providing those lower octaves of presence. Listening to a few songs with a center-panned bass synth and it was dead center in the middle of the field, below the vocal. So ALL IS GOOD.

I think eventually I may ditch the JL Audio and get another SB16. I know the higher end JL Audios are phenomenal but this is the 2nd e112 I've owned, the first one I had to replace because the volume knob went haywire. I did notice on this while adjusting the volume the jumps in dB did not correlate with the very slight changes I made on the knob. I think the SB16 just is a better sub and easier to work with (with the digital settings and mobile app).

So now I guess I'll have to recalibrate the home theater with the dual SB2000s... anyway thanks everyone and to answer the question posed in the OP, NO subwoofers are not bad for music - they do enhance most systems as long as they are used properly!
 
Jeremey

Instead of another SB16 you might want to look into a pair of Rythmik F-12G's for less than the price of the SB16 then you can put the one you have back to it's intended use. I have two pair of them. One pair in each system. When you put two in the cart it will discount them both.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G.html
 
Thanks Jack, that sounds like a great deal. I'll definitely look into the Rhythmik for sure when the time comes.
 
Whatever sub you get will need to be very quick to keep up with the Volti. I would think JL was up to the task but sounds like that model may not be their best example. If the sub lags it will make integration that more difficult, if at all.

JSQT said:
Thanks Jack, that sounds like a great deal. I'll definitely look into the Rhythmik for sure when the time comes.
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