DSD, The last thing we need....

[Mark Jones]

Is another damn format, what's wrong with us audiophiles. It's new I gotta have it.

Now I can't say the info in the following link is correct as I am no digital engineering guru, far from it. But based on hearing similar stuff from many experts in the industry, I think it is a good read.

Sorry if this is old news.

John Siau: Benchmark Audio Guru | Real HD-Audio

[annapolis Raider]

thx Mark, interesting article

[rbbert]

It is true that despite the many vocal proponents of DSD that we have on this (and other) forum, not all audiophiles prefer DSD to hires PCM, just as not all prefer LP's to hires digital. It's often kind of difficult to tell by numbers of posts, though...

[Myles B. Astor]

Problem is how many have heard "real" DSD and at what speed eg. DSD, 2X DSD or 4X DSD? And how many have truly compared both in the their own systems?

[kiwi_1282001]

Problem is how many have heard "real" DSD and at what speed eg. DSD, 2X DSD or 4X DSD? And how many have truly compared both in the their own systems?

Not many i'd guess.

How much material is really recorded in DSD to start with? Some production houses are honest and will tell you that the DSD stereo-layer contains 24bit master sources converted to DSD usually on a Meitner DAC. Most however appear silent on the issue and so one possible assumption is the recording is really PCM before quantizing to DSD.

2L (Norway) do a nice job. Possible to pick up packages / files from them which contain CD/SACD and Blu Ray formats and DXD, DSD64, DSD128. They like DXD (4 x DSD) and often record at source in both 1 bit DSD and multi-bit PCM.

[Myles B. Astor]

Not many i'd guess.

How much material is really recorded in DSD to start with? Some production houses are honest and will tell you that the DSD stereo-layer contains 24bit master sources converted to DSD usually on a Meitner DAC. Most however appear silent on the issue and so one possible assumption is the recording is really PCM before quantizing to DSD.

2L (Norway) do a nice job. Possible to pick up packages / files from them which contain CD/SACD and Blu Ray formats and DXD, DSD64, DSD128. They like DXD (4 x DSD) and often record at source in both 1 bit DSD and multi-bit PCM.

Most i'd proffer is converted somewhere in the chain unless it's from an an analog master (excepting if they're remixing in PCM).

DXD is PCM. 24/358.2
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit...eme_Definition

[rbbert]

Problem is how many have heard "real" DSD and at what speed eg. DSD, 2X DSD or 4X DSD? And how many have truly compared both in the their own systems?

I'm pretty sure both John and Marc (from the article) have heard all those formats, and possibly in some cases of the same recordings. As an aside, it was interesting to hear Marc at THE Show discuss the business aspect of being a small hires recording label, in this case hawking his own products in the Marketplace there.

[Myles B. Astor]

I'm pretty sure both John and Marc (from the article) have heard all those formats, and possibly in some cases of the same recordings. As an aside, it was interesting to hear Marc at THE Show discuss the business aspect of being a small hires recording label, in this case hawking his own products in the Marketplace there.

I was referring to audiophiles and commercial products.

As far Benchmark goes, they are kinda the mavericks out there.

[mep]

I couldn't disagree more with the premise of this thread. While there is no universal consensus on whether DSD sounds better than PCM, since when do we ever have consensus on anything in this wacky hobby? The answer: never. However, I'm seeing more and more people talk about how they like DSD and prefer it over PCM and I certainly fall into that camp as well. When all of the chips have fallen and the dust has settled, it might come down to something as simple as people who detest analog and only listen to digital prefer PCM over DSD and people who listen to both analog and digital prefer DSD because it sounds the most like analog of any current digital format.

Does DSD sound as good as analog either in LP format or tape? No, it doesn't. There is still a gap in sound quality in my opinion. The good news is that with DSD, you can let yourself relax and listen to music for prolonged periods of time and enjoy it. I have never found this to be true with PCM regardless of sampling rate and bit depth. Even though PCM has what I call 'wowie zowie' bass, it still manages to sound too thin and sharp over the long term to my ears. I can only take it so long (and not real long) before I feel compelled to get up and put on an LP so I can relax and float into the music.

So, instead of saying DSD is "The last thing we need", I would say that it's exactly what digital needs in order to sound less artificial, painful, thin, bright, and more like real live music. And I say all of this knowing there are some people who will swear that MP3s sound just like a master tape and PCM sounds even better than a master tape and the worst sounding digital sounds better than the best sounding analog. Why? Because we don't hear the same, we love to argue, and we seldom agree on anything.

[NorthStar]

The merrier the music is the better life is.

[mep]

The merrier the music is the better life is.

Why Bob, I'm always amazed at the profoundness of the statements you make.

[rbbert]

I've been waiting for your contribution, Mark

[NorthStar]

Why Bob, I'm always amazed at the profoundness of the statements you make.

Why not Mark, it's peaceful, and it is after all the joy of our hobby.

By the way, the thread's title is funny, because DSD is a very welcome addition, and it has been for few years now.
- With the latest Oppo players you can "scream" (stream) it directly from the USB port (direct DSD download). Personally I love that, a whole lot.

[Mark Jones]

Yes I love the Oppo products too

[NorthStar]

...Made by smart people.

[wisnon]

DSD2x sounds superb. Nuff said.

[Mike]

DSD2x sounds superb. Nuff said.

Agreed. I've tested DSD2x on the new Lumin S1 and used files recorded in double DSD (see Blue Coast Records) and others taken direct from master tape to double DSD. The results were impressive.

But the volume of DSD2x recordings is very very small. Only a handful and many of those have their source as the main tape or PCM. So, kind of pointless if PCM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[audio.bill]

I couldn't disagree more with the premise of this thread. While there is no universal consensus on whether DSD sounds better than PCM, since when do we ever have consensus on anything in this wacky hobby? The answer: never. However, I'm seeing more and more people talk about how they like DSD and prefer it over PCM and I certainly fall into that camp as well. When all of the chips have fallen and the dust has settled, it might come down to something as simple as people who detest analog and only listen to digital prefer PCM over DSD and people who listen to both analog and digital prefer DSD because it sounds the most like analog of any current digital format.

Does DSD sound as good as analog either in LP format or tape? No, it doesn't. There is still a gap in sound quality in my opinion. The good news is that with DSD, you can let yourself relax and listen to music for prolonged periods of time and enjoy it. I have never found this to be true with PCM regardless of sampling rate and bit depth. Even though PCM has what I call 'wowie zowie' bass, it still manages to sound too thin and sharp over the long term to my ears. I can only take it so long (and not real long) before I feel compelled to get up and put on an LP so I can relax and float into the music.

So, instead of saying DSD is "The last thing we need", I would say that it's exactly what digital needs in order to sound less artificial, painful, thin, bright, and more like real live music. And I say all of this knowing there are some people who will swear that MP3s sound just like a master tape and PCM sounds even better than a master tape and the worst sounding digital sounds better than the best sounding analog. Why? Because we don't hear the same, we love to argue, and we seldom agree on anything.

Great post! I agree that well recorded DSD when properly decoded sounds more like analog than PCM and is a step in the right direction for music lovers.

[rbbert]

Great post! I agree that well recorded DSD when properly decoded sounds more like analog than PCM and is a step in the right direction for music lovers.

or not...

Up to this point in time (15 yrs into the SACD era) I can't say I've noticed (for me) a clear preference for DSD vs. hires PCM

[socfan12]

Most i'd proffer is converted somewhere in the chain unless it's from an an analog master (excepting if they're remixing in PCM).

DXD is PCM. 24/358.2
Digital eXtreme Definition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's the mastering side that muddies the water (I like Acoustics Sounds as they generally are pretty clear where their files are cut from) but playback as well. Some DACs, like my CH Precision C1 and the TAD SACD player, convert DSD to PCM signals for playback.

[wisnon]

Agreed. I've tested DSD2x on the new Lumin S1 and used files recorded in double DSD (see Blue Coast Records) and others taken direct from master tape to double DSD. The results were impressive.

But the volume of DSD2x recordings is very very small. Only a handful and many of those have their source as the main tape or PCM. So, kind of pointless if PCM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

People are KORG-ing their Vinyl collections. Native DSD and a few other sites are just commencing selling stuff online from the Original DSD master files.

[wisnon]

or not...

Up to this point in time (15 yrs into the SACD era) I can't say I've noticed (for me) a clear preference for DSD vs. hires PCM

Or not what though? He said he AGREED...I think he should know his own mind...You and others are free to disagree.

[wisnon]

or not...

Up to this point in time (15 yrs into the SACD era) I can't say I've noticed (for me) a clear preference for DSD vs. hires PCM

Look, the article the OP pointed to is old and has been thrashed on many fora. The author of the piece has a vested commercial interest to naysay DSD, and that is fine, as long as that fact is not hidden.

Some like Matej and Myles suffer from digititis, needle in the head syndrome, when listening to PCM for too long. Matej says Daniel Hertz Masterclass playback engine solves this for $650.

One indisputable fact is that it is easier to get our hand on a pure DSD recording to playback chain than it is to a pure PCM chain. There are enough PURE DSD recordings/analog transfers available that an be played back on 1 bit converters, multibit DSD converters and Chipless solutions like Lampi/Direct Stream that preserves the chain of custody right until the analog output. This is VERY rare with PCM, which needs to source old material which happened to be recorded on devices like the Pacific Microsonics 2 and then played back on a R2R Multibit NOS dac like CH, Phasure, AMR DP777, Trinity, Metrum Octave, Killer dac, etc.

This whole debate is pointless to me, arguing over whether chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla. Almost everyone loves ice cream, so there...

[rbbert]

If you mean "pure DSD" with no analog generations, that is much more rare than "pure PCM (24-96 or better)". If you mean a PCM recording also played through a ladder-type DAC, then that is indeed a rare bird today. And of course it's all opinion, I was just giving mine, which I admit (by this time) is probably well-known to you and probably to Mark as well.

[Mark Jones]

This has finally gotten fun, surprised it took this long to get everyone fired up on this thread.

[Paul]

Sorry Mark. I can't join this thread. I have a no clue what this is all about

[Mike]

Pick the music, not the format and enjoy. I love DSD, but I look at the music first, second and third. The format is a distant fourth. Redbook, fine. 24/96, fine. 24, 192, fine. DSD, fine. DSDx2, fine. It's all good - but focus on the music and the mastering first. If you have a network music player or DAC that allows all formats or most formats, then you won't worry yourself with the dreaded format wars. Pour yourself a drink, click play and sit back and relax.

[Audioseduction]

Pick the music, not the format and enjoy. I love DSD, but I look at the music first, second and third. The format is a distant fourth. Redbook, fine. 24/96, fine. 24, 192, fine. DSD, fine. DSDx2, fine. It's all good - but focus on the music and the mastering first. If you have a network music player or DAC that allows all formats or most formats, then you won't worry yourself with the dreaded format wars. Pour yourself a drink, click play and sit back and relax.

I 2nd that!

[NOLG4EVR]

Pick the music, not the format and enjoy. I love DSD, but I look at the music first, second and third. The format is a distant fourth. Redbook, fine. 24/96, fine. 24, 192, fine. DSD, fine. DSDx2, fine. It's all good - but focus on the music and the mastering first. If you have a network music player or DAC that allows all formats or most formats, then you won't worry yourself with the dreaded format wars. Pour yourself a drink, click play and sit back and relax.

I absolutely agree with you Mike. As long as you include vinyl in the equation. Haha.

[kiwi_1282001]

Pick the music, not the format and enjoy. [...]

Amen!

I'd further add that if 16 bit PCM is unlistenable in any audio system then the owner should seek professional help - perhaps from a trusted local dealer or a more experienced audiophile.

[Mark Jones]

Ayre's PCM and DSD Comparison | AudioStream

[Mark Jones]

Pick the music, not the format and enjoy. I love DSD, but I look at the music first, second and third. The format is a distant fourth. Redbook, fine. 24/96, fine. 24, 192, fine. DSD, fine. DSDx2, fine. It's all good - but focus on the music and the mastering first. If you have a network music player or DAC that allows all formats or most formats, then you won't worry yourself with the dreaded format wars. Pour yourself a drink, click play and sit back and relax.

Agreed.

[John R Leddy]

I'd further add that if 16 bit PCM is unlistenable in any audio system then the owner should seek professional help - perhaps from a trusted local dealer or a more experienced audiophile.

Made me smile; though a dealer or an audiophile wasn't the first person to come to mind...

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum John.

Thank you for joining!

[Mark Jones]

Made me smile; though a dealer or an audiophile wasn't the first person to come to mind...

LOL, my thoughts exactly....;-)

Welcome to AS.

[John R Leddy]

Welcome to the forum John.
Thank you for joining!

Thanks Joe.
The forum, and this thread, has helped me decide to keep pottering-on with PCM.
This is a good thing really as I am heavily committed to FLAC, mostly 16-bit 44.1kHz via EAC.
I have been deliberately cautious with my streamer purchases.
Before selling my final CD player, I tried an outboard DAC with the wife's laptop, but decided against that route.
I had a Pioneer N-50, before purchasing the Stream Magic 6, which reassured me I was heading in the right direction.
The next step over here would have been a Naim or Cyrus - What Hi-Fi? Sound and Vision Awards 2013: Best Music streamers - but I swithered and ultimately bottled-out of spending more money.
The SM6 > VK-3iX > VK-55 > Ninka provides a reasonably beefy American sound which I like, whereas the N-50 was more of a thin and tinny British sound so, as good as it was in defeating most CD players, it had to go. I lost a serious amount of balls-out grunt replacing my 4B-ST with the VK-55, but just had to have the extra clarity for vibraphones, etc.
Now it's just a case of waiting for other people's cast-offs as they upgrade.
All the best.

[John R Leddy]

I'd further add that if 16 bit PCM is unlistenable in any audio system then the owner should seek professional help - perhaps from a trusted local dealer or a more experienced audiophile.

Made me smile; though a dealer or an audiophile wasn't the first person to come to mind...

LOL, my thoughts exactly....;-)
Welcome to AS.

Thanks Mark.

Like me, you will have thought of an otolaryngologist first :) ...of course.

[rbbert]

Ayre's PCM and DSD Comparison | AudioStream

What! Another audiophile and industry professional who makes DSD ADC's and DAC's who prefers PCM?? It must be a conspiracy...

[mep]

What! Another audiophile and industry professional who makes DSD ADC's and DAC's who prefers PCM?? It must be a conspiracy...

Wasn't there some controversy over this comparison? I thought I read something about this before. It really doesn't matter though. If PCM makes your socks roll up and down, enjoy it. The only person you have to please is yourself and your ears.

[rbbert]

I'm still in the agnostic camp; I have great sounding SACD's and great sounding PCM (downloads and Bluray/DVD-A). As I have posted before, I don't really have a preference except to prefer either over CD or LP.

[BlueFox]

I'm still in the agnostic camp; I have great sounding SACD's and great sounding PCM (downloads and Bluray/DVD-A). As I have posted before, I don't really have a preference except to prefer either over CD or LP.

Yes. Perfect attitude. Personally, I doubt if any high-res format (DSD vs 96/24, or higher, PCM) is superior to the other. At least not enough to be concerned about.

For example, the Japanese SHM SACD of Exile on Main Street is much better than the CD. However, my Blue Ray Audio of Exile on Main Street is, to me, just as good as the SACD, plus I can rip it to my music server.

[wisnon]

Yes, but the DSD master downloaded is better than the SACD, given all the processing and compression tech to fit it on as an ISO file in SACD format!

So yes, in disk format or even ripped, you still dont get the full potential of DSD material. Plus when you go to DSD128 and above, you can hear the immediate improvement.

This is why I say I will listen to people gargling in DSD128! LoL

Well recorded PCM is great for me as well, as I dont suffer too much from digititis sensitivity!

[wisnon]

What! Another audiophile and industry professional who makes DSD ADC's and DAC's who prefers PCM?? It must be a conspiracy...

I have had long PM debates with Charles (very nice gentleman). His main objection is BUSINESS. He thinks that PCM is more than good enough and more formats will confuse the issue of an already struggling industry. While I cant refute that. I still think the market has a mind of its own and the real future is with Dacs that can take any input and play back in any format. By this I dont mean just PCM or DSD, I mean any Delta sigma format, say 6/5.6mhz or 24/28mhz...why convert back to single bit format or one of today's "hirez" PCM formats before conversion to analog?

Many manufacturers also love DSD and some have no dogs in this fight.

[Myles B. Astor]

Yes. Perfect attitude. Personally, I doubt if any high-res format (DSD vs 96/24, or higher, PCM) is superior to the other. At least not enough to be concerned about.

For example, the Japanese SHM SACD of Exile on Main Street is much better than the CD. However, my Blue Ray Audio of Exile on Main Street is, to me, just as good as the SACD, plus I can rip it to my music server.

So why did Dave Wilson when he recently began the project to reissue all of his recordings digitally choose DSD? You know Dave is meticulous, listened to all the different digital formats and in the end chose 4XDSD. Not to mention he could have chosen any format he wanted (well with the exception of analog but that's a story for a another day). In fact, Dave supervised every step of the transfer with Bruce Brown.

Let's be honest. The reason most use PCM is because of the ability to edit. (Though I think now there's one work station where you can edit in DSD).

[rbbert]

I thought Bruce ended up using the Grimm (at 2x DSD) because he thought that sounded better, that the 4x ADC's weren't really better sounding (yet)?

[Myles B. Astor]

I thought Bruce ended up using the Grimm (at 2x DSD) because he thought that sounded better, that the 4x ADC's weren't really better sounding (yet)?

I'm not sure, perhaps Bruce can answer that. Even so that doesn't subtract from the original question.

[FlexibleAudio]

A quote from Cyrill Hammer regarding his brand new SOTA $35,000 Soulution 560 DAC:

"As we consider the PCM conversion technology as superior, the DSD signals get converted before its final D/A conversion."

[mep]

A quote from Cyrill Hammer regarding his brand new SOTA $35,000 Soulution 560 DAC:

"As we consider the PCM conversion technology as superior, the DSD signals get converted before its final D/A conversion."

It's just an opinion. If you convert DSD to PCM, you no longer have DSD so why bother? Might as well stick with PCM rather than wasting money buying DSD files only to convert them to PCM. I find that DSD does not sound like PCM which is precisely why I like DSD. Other people claim to hear little to no difference and many have a preference for PCM. Regardless of whether you like or don't like DSD, it makes no sense to me to convert it to PCM.

[FlexibleAudio]

This makes it all very clear.......or not.

To DSD or Not to DSD, That Is The Question: PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC v Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series | AudioStream

The Gordon Rankin (Wavelength) quote in the first comment to the article is telling:

"It would be relevant if DAC chips made today actually did native DSD. Since I think 2001 the TI/BB DSD1700 was the last true DSD chip made and it was only capable of DSD1 speeds.

Today all chip makers including ESS (used here) convert DSD inside the chip so that their digital filters and output stage works. These DAC chips made by ESS, TI/BB, AKM and Wolfson are all optimized for PCM output." Gordon

[Myles B. Astor]

This makes it all very clear.......or not.

To DSD or Not to DSD, That Is The Question: PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC v Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Reference Series | AudioStream

The Gordon Rankin (Wavelength) quote in the first comment to the article is telling:

Q&A with Thorsten Loesch of AMR/iFi | AudioStream