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  1. #1

    MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Granted, I only have two days with my new Discrete. I got both modules from dealer, with the understanding that I will eventually keep only one.

    The regular USB Quad / MQA module, and the current v2 Renderer module.

    I know the Renderer is supposed to sound better, as everyone (including the dealer) say so, but for some reason I prefer the USB module.

    My USB configuration: Using my Innuos ZENith MK3 as Roon server and streamer, Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference USB cable out to MSB Discrete. Sablon Ethernet cable from my fiber media converters to ZENith.

    For The Renderer module, identical Ethernet cable to MSB. And Innuos only being a Roon server.

    What gives?

  2. #2

    MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by thyname View Post
    Granted, I only have two days with my new Discrete. I got both modules from dealer, with the understanding that I will eventually keep only one.

    The regular USB Quad / MQA module, and the current v2 Renderer module.

    I know the Renderer is supposed to sound better, as everyone (including the dealer) say so, but for some reason I prefer the USB module.

    My USB configuration: Using my Innuos ZENith MK3 as Roon server and streamer, Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference USB cable out to MSB Discrete. Sablon Ethernet cable from my fiber media converters to ZENith.

    For The Renderer module, identical Ethernet cable to MSB. And Innuos only being a Roon server.

    What gives?
    Add a Gigafoil between your router/switch and MSB renderer module, you’ll flip 180’.

  3. #3
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    Add a Gigafoil between your router/switch and MSB renderer module, you’ll flip 180’.
    Agreed.


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  4. #4

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Well... I already have dual fiber media converters implemented for a while now, powered by a SOtM sPs-1000 linear power supply. Should accomplish similar thing with the GigaFoil.

    My plan is to get the Uptone Audio etherRegen when it launches in a couple of months. It has been delayed a few times though

  5. #5

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by thyname View Post
    Well... I already have dual fiber media converters implemented for a while now, powered by a SOtM sPs-1000 linear power supply. Should accomplish similar thing with the GigaFoil.

    My plan is to get the Uptone Audio etherRegen when it launches in a couple of months. It has been delayed a few times though
    Did you happen to also look at SOtM sNH-10G switch? I’m considering that one.

    I also power my Apple Airport Express with Teddy Pardo power supply. But when I added Gagafoil + Keces, the improvement is not subtle.

  6. #6

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    Did you happen to also look at SOtM sNH-10G switch? I’m considering that one.

    I also power my Apple Airport Express with Teddy Pardo power supply. But when I added Gagafoil + Keces, the improvement is not subtle.
    I did look at the new SOtM switch, but it's too expensive. The etherRegen is supposed to be cheaper. Rumors are about $600-$650

    As I said before, I do have dual fiber media converters from TPLink that I use for electric isolation of Ethernet lines, similar in concept with what the GigaFoil does

  7. #7
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    Did you happen to also look at SOtM sNH-10G switch? I’m considering that one.

    I also power my Apple Airport Express with Teddy Pardo power supply. But when I added Gagafoil + Keces, the improvement is not subtle.
    I’m planning on purchasing the SOtM switch and using the clock output from my Select DAC to clock the switch. Someone is already doing this and says it sounds phenomenal. A bigger improvement than even adding the Ethernet Filter.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  8. #8

    MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    I’m planning on purchasing the SOtM switch and using the clock output from my Select DAC to clock the switch. Someone has already doing this and says it sounds phenomenal. A bigger improvement than even adding the Ethernet Filter.

    Ken
    Hi Ken, the same reason I’m also considering this switch. But your Select clock may be vastly different than my Discrete clock from word sync output.

  9. #9
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by kzhtoo View Post
    Hi Ken, the same reason I’m also considering this switch. But your Select clock may be vastly different than my Discrete clock from word sync output.
    I have the Femto 33 clock but I would suspect that any clock MSB utilizes would be superior to the SOtM clock.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  10. #10

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by thyname View Post
    I did look at the new SOtM switch, but it's too expensive. The etherRegen is supposed to be cheaper. Rumors are about $600-$650

    As I said before, I do have dual fiber media converters from TPLink that I use for electric isolation of Ethernet lines, similar in concept with what the GigaFoil does
    Not even close. I had a similar setup...The Gigafoil does much,much more. Forget the switch and get a Gigafoil first

  11. #11

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    Not even close. I had a similar setup...The Gigafoil does much,much more. Forget the switch and get a Gigafoil first
    That may be 100% right. And I realize that. I was very close to purchasing the GigaFoil, but I decided to wait for etherRegen, which is supposed to do much more than what gigaFoil does.

  12. #12

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    TP Link converters sound bad. 10Gtek much better. And u cannot use 1000mb on the V2 renderer. Its 100
    How r u powering them? Stock wall wart is bad, iFi better, Sbooster types much better still....all easily heard with MSB. What ethernet cable after the TP Links? Thats important also.
    Many over at Audiophile Style take a different light on things.....caveat emptor my friend......

  13. #13

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingsrule View Post
    TP Link converters sound bad. 10Gtek much better
    How r u powering them? Stock wall wart is bad, iFi better, Sbooster types much better still....all easily heard with MSB. What ethernet cable after the TP Links? Thats important also.
    Many over at Audiophile Style take a different light on things.....caveat emptor my friend......
    I am using a SOtM sPS-1000 linear power supply to power them.

    The Ethernet Cable is Sablon Panatela : http://www.sablonaudio.com/index.php/signal but I am thinking of upgrading to a Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference Ethernet Cable, after the great experience I had with same line USB cable from SR.

  14. #14

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    I’m planning on purchasing the SOtM switch and using the clock output from my Select DAC to clock the switch. Someone is already doing this and says it sounds phenomenal. A bigger improvement than even adding the Ethernet Filter.

    Ken
    I check with Jonathan from MSB. They are not compatible. Select DAC will not reclock the switch. This is his wordings

    No, the Select cannot generate a 10MHz clock. A 10MHz clock is not useful for audio conversion as audio is not recorded at a division of 10MHz.

    I assume you got the SOtM switch? This seems to be popular with the need for a 10MHz clock.

  15. #15
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    F
    Quote Originally Posted by Adyc View Post
    I check with Jonathan from MSB. They are not compatible. Select DAC will not reclock the switch. This is his wordings

    No, the Select cannot generate a 10MHz clock. A 10MHz clock is not useful for audio conversion as audio is not recorded at a division of 10MHz.

    I assume you got the SOtM switch? This seems to be popular with the need for a 10MHz clock.
    No, I have not purchased the SOtM switch yet. I have spoken with Alex from Alma Audio. He is currently using the SOtM switch and clocking off the Word Sync Output (44/48) on his Select II DAC. He cannot explain why it works because the frequencies don’t match, only that it does and it sounds phenomenal.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  16. #16
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Don’t think you need a GigaFoil with an Innuos with isolated Ethernet.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ 47 Labs MC Bee cart, MSB Premier DAC --> Music First Baby Reference v2 --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> YG Acoustics Hailey 2.2

  17. #17

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithR View Post
    Don’t think you need a GigaFoil with an Innuos with isolated Ethernet.
    ‘Can you please elaborate? I think my ZENith MK3 still benefits from full isolation from electrical noise.

  18. #18
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    MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    I had the pleasure of sitting next to an Innuos employee on the shuttle one morning here in Munich. We talked at length for about 20 minutes and at the end, concluded, in an Ethernet only environment, the GigaFoil/Keces did the same thing as the Innuos from an Ethernet filtering standpoint. Their main competition is Aurender and Melco.

    I still want to get one to try though.


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  19. #19

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I had the pleasure of sitting next to an Innuos employee on the shuttle one morning here in Munich. We talked at length for about 20 minutes and at the end, concluded, in an Ethernet only environment, the GigaFoil/Keces did the same thing as the Innuos from an Ethernet filtering standpoint. Their main competition is Aurender and Melco.

    I still want to get one to try though.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    So Mike you are saying if one has an Innuos ZENith or ZEN, there is no need for putting a GigaFoil v4 on the Ethernet line feeding the Innuos? Even when the Innuos is used as both streamer and renderer (feeding a DAC via USB cable)?

    Thanks!

  20. #20
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by thyname View Post
    So Mike you are saying if one has an Innuos ZENith or ZEN, there is no need for putting a GigaFoil v4 on the Ethernet line feeding the Innuos? Even when the Innuos is used as both streamer and renderer (feeding a DAC via USB cable)?

    Thanks!
    That we never discussed. I was looking at it the other way: “what benefit would the Innuos provide if one is using the GigaFoil/Keces to the MSB Roon Renderer module?” The answer we concluded was none. But you know, I still want to try.


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  21. #21

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    That we never discussed. I was looking at it the other way: “what benefit would the Innuos provide if one is using the GigaFoil/Keces to the MSB Roon Renderer module?” The answer we concluded was none.
    I understand. But you need something to run a Roon Core (server), right? And an Innuos does a great job at that, even if only used as a server, and NOT a renderer. Obviously, it can be used for both, as Roon Core and Roon Endpoint (renderer, streamer, call it what you want).

    And yes, I do believe from my own experience that servers matter. Be it an Innuos or the Roon's own Nucleus.

    So, since I already have an Innuos (the ZENith MK3) that I use with Roon, and therefore there is no decision to be made whether I should buy one, the question becomes: when using an Innuos as a Server and Rendererer, does adding a GigaFoil on the Ethernet line feeding the Innuos improve anything? Honest question, as I don't know.

    As for the MSB Discrete, it happened to be that the unit I have comes with both modules (USB and Renderer) with an understanding that I would keep only one. As my original post says, I am leaning towards keeping the USB module, as my USB streaming setup is already in place through my Innuos ZENith MK3 and my USB cable (so no decision to be made here), and SQ wise, I hear a slightly better sound, albeit subtle, vs. the Renderer module on my MSB. Perhaps adding a gigaFoil will improve the things with the Renderer module on my MSB. However, maybe adding the same GF on the Ethernet line to my Innuos unit will also improve things? I don't know...

  22. #22
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Yes, Roon Nucleus+


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  23. #23
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adyc View Post
    I check with Jonathan from MSB. They are not compatible. Select DAC will not reclock the switch. This is his wordings

    No, the Select cannot generate a 10MHz clock. A 10MHz clock is not useful for audio conversion as audio is not recorded at a division of 10MHz.

    I assume you got the SOtM switch? This seems to be popular with the need for a 10MHz clock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    F

    No, I have not purchased the SOtM switch yet. I have spoken with Alex from Alma Audio. He is currently using the SOtM switch and clocking off the Word Sync Output (44/48) on his Select II DAC. He cannot explain why it works because the frequencies don’t match, only that it does and it sounds phenomenal.

    Ken
    I spoke with Alex again and your point is a valid one. The clocking may not be working off the Select DAC’s Word Sync Output. It may be defaulting to the switch’s internal clock module. Trying to figure out what drove the improvement. Stay tuned.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  24. #24
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by thyname View Post
    ‘Can you please elaborate? I think my ZENith MK3 still benefits from full isolation from electrical noise.
    Built-in isolated ethernet is doing something similar to a Gigafoil.

    As Mike said, you can still try one and see which works better. I'm of the simpler is usually better mentality so didn't bother.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ 47 Labs MC Bee cart, MSB Premier DAC --> Music First Baby Reference v2 --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> YG Acoustics Hailey 2.2

  25. #25

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    I spoke with Alex again and your point is a valid one. The clocking may not be working off the Select DAC’s Word Sync Output. It may be defaulting to the switch’s internal clock module. Trying to figure out what drove the improvement. Stay tuned.

    Ken
    Thanks Ken. I will be looking forward to your additional findings.

  26. #26

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    I spoke with Alex again and your point is a valid one. The clocking may not be working off the Select DAC’s Word Sync Output. It may be defaulting to the switch’s internal clock module. Trying to figure out what drove the improvement. Stay tuned.

    Ken
    So far the only data point is from Alex. If you finally decide to buy SOTM switch with clock, please let us know your impressions. Love to have more data points.

  27. #27
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adyc View Post
    So far the only data point is from Alex. If you finally decide to buy SOTM switch with clock, please let us know your impressions. Love to have more data points.
    Will do, Adyc. I’m still weighing my options as far as the SOtM switch is concerned. When you add the power supply and external Cybershaft clock, it ends up being a lot of boxes and space on the rack. It could be well worth it though.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  28. #28

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    Will do, Adyc. I’m still weighing my options as far as the SOtM switch is concerned. When you add the power supply and external Cybershaft clock, it ends up being a lot of boxes and space on the rack. It could be well worth it though.

    Ken
    Will all extra boxes, the cost adds up quickly. ProUSB seems theoretically better and it is cheaper and occupies much less space!

  29. #29
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adyc View Post
    Will all extra boxes, the cost adds up quickly. ProUSB seems theoretically better and it is cheaper and occupies much less space!
    I’ve read the Pro USB is really good and eliminates the need for the optical ethernet filter. I’m really happy with the sound quality of the Renderer V2 in conjunction with the GigaFoilv4 Ethernet Filter. Adding the two Keces LPS has also made a nice difference. I’ll hold out for the Renderer V3, which should have an optical connection like the Pro USB.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

  30. #30

    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinist View Post
    I’ll hold out for the Renderer V3, which should have an optical connection like the Pro USB.

    Ken
    Are there rumors for this? If so, when is it expected to launch?

  31. #31
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    Re: MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

    Quote Originally Posted by thyname View Post
    Are there rumors for this? If so, when is it expected to launch?
    Nothing that I’ve heard thus far.

    Ken
    "No summit worth climbing is easily attained."
    --------------------------------------------
    Source: MSB Select II DAC with Two Mono Powerbases, Femto 33 Clock, Renderer V2 Digital Input Module and Roon Nucleus Plus
    Amps: Vandersteen M7-HPA Mono Amps
    Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2
    Power: Two AudioQuest Niagara 5000’s with AudioQuest Dragon and Hurricane Power Cords

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MSB Discrete: USB module better than Renderer module!

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