Atlantic DAC - Incoming

Oh gee, thanks Ben.:huh:

I'll keep it short and simple. Most of the session was with the Tortuga as the preamp. We listened to the B7 with the Tak300b's first for a bit before we switched to the Atlantic. After several tracks the Atlantic really came into its own and on certain songs I preferred it to the B7. Listening to several jazz tracks had me tapping my foot and really thought the tone and musicality of the Atlantic was shining through. I also thought the bass was better on the Atlantic with it being more punchy and full sounding. It was a matter of preference at this point as far as what was considered better or preferred. I thought both had a similar size soundstage and depth.

Where things changed for me was when the WE 101d's got put in on the B7. I thought the detail and imaging improved while still being musical. Listening to the same track back and forth between dacs I definitely noticed instruments were popping out from everywhere in the soundstage. With the Atlantic it still sounded good but compared to the 101d B7 it almost sounded hazy or fuzzy.

Overall I thought the Atlantic held its own and faired much better than I thought it would but in the end the B7 still ruled.
 
Ha, well, what can I say? I respect your opinion... :popcorn: :D

Yeah, a big surprise for me was when we put in the WE replica 101D's, and I didn't hate them like I had earlier. About a week ago, I uncovered a major weak link in the system, some small signal tubes I didn't think were still in the signal path on the Line Magnetic, but actually were. So when I put some higher quality tubes in that position, the sound of the whole system really took a leap forward. But I had the Tak 300B's in the system because they were way better with the old shitty 12AX7's. So, hadn't given the WE replica 101D's another chance since disqualifying them with the old config. I spent a couple more hours listening on the 101D's after Tom left and am liking what I'm hearing. Unfortunately, the Lampi anni EML 45's didn't arrive yesterday - they'll be delivered tomorrow. So, no ability to comment on them. I do suspect they might be the closest analog to the tubes in the Atlantic, but we may never know unless we're able to do another get together comparison sometime.

So, big lesson #1 for me reaffirmed: Big7 tube selection makes a huge difference in terms of system synergy. And the flexibility to tune to taste is a big potential plus for prospective owners -as long as you're up for the challenge and cost of finding the right tubeset for you - neither of which is at all insubstantial.

After first swapping the Atlantic into the system, I did really enjoy how much airier the presentation was than with the Big7 on Tak 300B diet. Instruments had more crispness to them as well, which was good for some music, but also lost some magic for me on other types of music like Madeleine Peyroux's first album. Not quite as much complexity of individual instrumental sounds that make them sound more real. But, I agree the Atlantic had firmer bass foundation, and clearer too. Attributes I have heard solid state rectification brings to the table compared with tube rectification. But this also was likely due to the different attributes of 300B tubes vs the ones in the Atlantic. Overall, I'd say the Atlantic has a great balance of detail, crispness, tone, meatiness/weight, drive, and air. Honestly, it's pretty awesome.

I didn't get as close a listen comparing the two DACs after we put in the 101D's. I let Tom have the captain's chair for those sessions, and I was listening off-center and out-of-plane. But what I did hear in those comparisons was a more insightful and realistic presentation of instruments. I'd agree with Tom's assessment of that comparison.

So, overall comparison, I'd say the Atlantic is really great, very well balanced DAC, and extremely musical. I love it. But the Big7 can go deeper into the depths of instrumental/musical realism, and has tremendous tube flexibility to cater to individual tastes. Whether those additional abilities/qualities is worth the price gap will certainly be a matter of individual tastes/interests. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Atlantic, and a whole helluva lot right.

I'd also say the comparisons of the various passive attenuators was pretty interesting. Some aspects of each were very appealing, but I think we all preferred the built-in Lampi volume control the best.

All in all, a very interesting day! Many thanks to Tom for driving all the way down to Tucson from Phoenix and coming prepared with not just the Atlantic, but also cabling and his Hattor passive that made our comparisons truly apples to apples.
 
For those of you comparing, Lampi DACs, a question:
What usually stands out in reviews of Lampizator DACs is that people say they are the most emotionally satisfying and involving of any DAC they've heard. So I'm wondering, does the Atlantic also give you this sense of emotional involvement as the Big 7 and GG?

That interests me much more than the question of minute differences in various aspects of playback.
 
For those of you comparing, Lampi DACs, a question:
What usually stands out in reviews of Lampizator DACs is that people say they are the most emotionally satisfying and involving of any DAC they've heard. So I'm wondering, does the Atlantic also give you this sense of emotional involvement as the Big 7 and GG?


That interests me much more than the question of minute differences in various aspects of playback.
 
Sorry maybe I missed this. Was anything orchestral compared, with 101d and the Atlantic?
 
firedog said:
For those of you comparing, Lampi DACs, a question:
What usually stands out in reviews of Lampizator DACs is that people say they are the most emotionally satisfying and involving of any DAC they've heard. So I'm wondering, does the Atlantic also give you this sense of emotional involvement as the Big 7 and GG?


That interests me much more than the question of minute differences in various aspects of playback.
Click to expand...

Welcome Firedog
 
bonzo said:
Sorry maybe I missed this. Was anything orchestral compared, with 101d and the Atlantic?
Click to expand...

Would be keen to know too.

tomy2 mentioned that with the WE 101D on the B7, the Atlantic sounded, in comparison, relatively fuzzy and hazy.
 
bonzo said:
Sorry maybe I missed this. Was anything orchestral compared, with 101d and the Atlantic?
Click to expand...

We mostly played a number of cuts from a test compilation a friend of ours shared from back in 2006 from the NY audiophile Rave group. A few other key tracks I like to listen to critically and know really really well. A range of music types. Some of the songs we keyed into most were:

Wynton Marsalis - Feeling of Jazz
The Bad Plus - Keep the Bugs Off Your Glass and the Bears Off Your Ass
Mino Cinelu - Oncoming Horizons
Nils Lofgren - Keith Don't Go
Madeleine Peyroux - (Getting Some) Fun Out of Life
Martin Sexton - The Beast In Me (Live Wide Open recording)

There were others, but these were the ones we came back to for repeated listening close comparisons.

In addition, in the middle, when the Atlantic was in the system for the first time, I had about 30 min in the sweet spot and listened through a wide range of other favorite test tracks quickly. Since I know my Big7 really well and have done a lot of close listening over the past six months as I've been tuning my system to a new home and lots of tube swapping, it was probably easier for me to hear differences fairly quickly between B7 and Atlantic.

During this mini-session of mine, I did play Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man - the only orchestral piece, but no real strings - sorry. Compared to the B7 with 300B tubes, this song had more air, and more precise sound. Again, the Atlantic has a well-balanced crispness to the sound in my hearing of it. And Atlantic also probably had more delineated and controlled bass. Probably better resolution of the tympani's echo and reverberent field of sound. I didn't hear any immediate weaknesses on this track. But, we didn't replay this to my memory with the WE101D tubes in the B7, and I haven't replayed that since. Probably best to say this song might have been a toss-up between the two.

Basically, I doubt anyone who has bought an Atlantic will feel like they're missing anything. You would have to really listen closely side by side, or have had extended experience with B7 or another top top DAC to know that there's more to be had than what Atlantic is bringing to the table. If you have this experience, though, I think you can hear that the crisp sound of the Atlantic is actually a truncating of the inner detail of instruments.

But I strongly caution people not to read too much into this "crispness" issue I'm raising. This is not like the crispness you might hear in a detail-champ analytical DAC, an emphasis on leading edge sounds at the expense of tone and organic warmth. I might sum it up with an example from that Madeleine Peyroux track. It has this great piano solo in the middle of it. With Atlantic, the piano sounds like a real piano. It has a great combination of that initial strike of the note, along with the natural tone that comes from harmonics in the decay of the note. Very realistic sounding and balanced sound. But with the Big7, in addition to this, you would also hear some of the actual sound of the key action itself on the keyboard, in addition to the sound of the note itself. This may be oversimplifying a bit, but I think this gives a sense of the differences I heard at least, across a wide range of music. The Big7 could just get into this deeper inner world of the instruments and musicians better than the Atlantic. At least, that's what I was hearing.

And it would make sense given the design choices. Both units use the same digital input boards. And the same R2R DAC board. The differences are in the power supply, and the output tubes. Atlantic is solid state rectified, with the DHP output tubes. Big7 is tube rectified with a bunch of chokes on the power supply, and with DHT tubes. I suspect the heavily choked power supply filtering is what is largely responsible for this performance gap, cleaner power yielding deeper inner resolution in the Big7. But that's just me.
 
firedog said:
For those of you comparing, Lampi DACs, a question:
What usually stands out in reviews of Lampizator DACs is that people say they are the most emotionally satisfying and involving of any DAC they've heard. So I'm wondering, does the Atlantic also give you this sense of emotional involvement as the Big 7 and GG?


That interests me much more than the question of minute differences in various aspects of playback.
Click to expand...

Yes, Atlantic is a very emotionally involving DAC. But the greater degree of inner resolution of the Big7 has the potential to be even more emotionally involving if the rest of your system is up to bringing out this resolution as well, and if that's what you really thrive on as a listener.

But in terms of overall character, they are definitely cut from very similar cloth. See my above comments on the similar nature of the design between the two DAC's - same input boards and DAC boards, just different power supplies and output tubes.
 
Thanks for the insights.

With the tube rectifier option on the Atlantic, I suppose that the Atlantic could close the distance to the B7 in the areas you mentioned unless, of course, that gap is entirely due to the inherent sound of the 4P1L output tube.
 
nicoludio said:
Thanks for the insights.

With the tube rectifier option on the Atlantic, I suppose that the Atlantic could close the distance to the B7 in the areas you mentioned unless, of course, that gap is entirely due to the inherent sound of the 4P1L output tube.
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Also keep in mind the additional chokes the B7 has in the power supply. These are a significant factor in the cost differential as well. I will add that my unit has had the optional anode choke added, as well as the normal chokes included in a B7. I'm really not at all sure how much contribution that might have, as I had the R2R board added at the same time, and the unit was gone for multiple weeks. Between break-in of the new boards and fickle auditory memory, as well as evolving system variables in my new room, I can't say how much the extra choke contributes.

Anyway, better power supply filtering very well SHOULD result in greater microdynamic resolution.
 
Genjamon, thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts. Looking forward to more... I would also be interested in what the two of you think about the HDPlex PS as I've been considering this purchase. I like the idea of multiple output voltages as this makes for a much better value if the results are similar.
 
Greg F said:
Genjamon, thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts. Looking forward to more... I would also be interested in what the two of you think about the HDPlex PS as I've been considering this purchase. I like the idea of multiple output voltages as this makes for a much better value if the results are similar.
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Well, HDPlex is pretty much off-topic. But I'll give a short reply since it's relevant to getting the full experience with the DACs. I have found the microRendu (and my previous Auralic Aries) to be quite sensitive to improvements in their power supplies. They sounded good with basic power supplies, but there is much more refinement to be added by a quality LPS. My first PS with the microRendu was the cheap iFi unit. By contrast, the iFi is a quite bleached and strident sound. I am confident that if the iFi had been used in yesterday's audition, we would not have been able to tell the differences in my accounts above between the DACs, or at least not nearly to the same degree. The HDPlex by comparison allows the music to relax, hear a real body and warmth to instruments, and improves soundstage depth and realistic air. It's just more real sounding. Though initially in comparison the iFi might sound exciting, that excitement is based on that more incisive sound, but is really a product of noise causing an emphasize on leading edge sounds and a certain amount of grunge obscuring all that natural tone and microdynamics to the music.

I'm sure there are additional improvements to be heard with the Uptone JS-2, or other higher end LPS units. I am quite interested in adding a LPS-1 to the system to power the microRendu, when they come out. But to me, the HDPlex is a unique unit in the marketplace. It has amazing flexibility and the capacity to be a true multi-use component, and it's relatively affordable at $400. I'm currently using two of its outputs - one to power the microRendu, and one to power the FMC on the DAC side. When the LPS-1 comes out, it will allow me to use HDPlex to power the LPS-1 and microRendu, and both of the FMC's instead of just one. So, I'll be getting a three-fer there. Pretty awesome if you ask me.
 
tomy2 said:
Oh gee, thanks Ben.:huh:

I'll keep it short and simple. Most of the session was with the Tortuga as the preamp. We listened to the B7 with the Tak300b's first for a bit before we switched to the Atlantic. After several tracks the Atlantic really came into its own and on certain songs I preferred it to the B7. Listening to several jazz tracks had me tapping my foot and really thought the tone and musicality of the Atlantic was shining through. I also thought the bass was better on the Atlantic with it being more punchy and full sounding. It was a matter of preference at this point as far as what was considered better or preferred. I thought both had a similar size soundstage and depth.

Where things changed for me was when the WE 101d's got put in on the B7. I thought the detail and imaging improved while still being musical. Listening to the same track back and forth between dacs I definitely noticed instruments were popping out from everywhere in the soundstage. With the Atlantic it still sounded good but compared to the 101d B7 it almost sounded hazy or fuzzy.

Overall I thought the Atlantic held its own and faired much better than I thought it would but in the end the B7 still ruled.
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Great feedback - I can relate. I would say however that in my experience the 101D's are by far the most detailed tubes I've had in my B7's and GG's. Even fatiguing at times but at others equally glorious... Hard for anything to compare if you are assessing dynamics, speed, etc...


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La Dolce Vita said:
Great feedback - I can relate. I would say however that in my experience the 101D's are by far the most detailed tubes I've had in my B7's and GG's. Even fatiguing at times but at others equally glorious... Hard for anything to compare if you are assessing dynamics, speed, etc...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Have you tried the PX4, the special Lampi 45s, and the 242s?
 
I have tried the PX4 yes. Nice tubes but not my favorites in my system. Remember so much of this is system (and room) dependent. I have yet to hear the 242s but know from Mike and others they are like a 101D with the full breath of 300B's. The Lampi 45 mesh globes are my tubes of choice. They've been in for many months now


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La Dolce Vita said:
Great feedback - I can relate. I would say however that in my experience the 101D's are by far the most detailed tubes I've had in my B7's and GG's. Even fatiguing at times but at others equally glorious... Hard for anything to compare if you are assessing dynamics, speed, etc...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yeah, thats where sometimes I'm hesitant to give a recommendation because what I hear in a particular system and or room could be very different from somebody else's with the same dac. If genjamon hasn't already mentioned it, his previous house/room was much more lively and the 101d's weren't a good fit but in the room where everything currently is it's much more dead and we both thought the 101d's brought a lot of the detail out without being analytical or fatiguing.
 
tomy2 said:
Yeah, thats where sometimes I'm hesitant to give a recommendation because what I hear in a particular system and or room could be very different from somebody else's with the same dac. If genjamon hasn't already mentioned it, his previous house/room was much more lively and the 101d's weren't a good fit but in the room where everything currently is it's much more dead and we both thought the 101d's brought a lot of the detail out without being analytical or fatiguing.
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We are on the same page. That's great to hear! Glad the two of you identified an optimal choice given the new listening environment. Enjoy!!


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nicoludio said:
With the tube rectifier option on the Atlantic, I suppose that the Atlantic could close the distance to the B7 in the areas you mentioned unless, of course, that gap is entirely due to the inherent sound of the 4P1L output tube.
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I'm still tempted to get the tube rectifier retro fitted in my Atlantic but after Saturday's session I'm wondering if its really worth it. I like to have options and being able to roll at least one tube in the Atlantic dac would be nice. If I do get the tube recti I would be willing to back to genjamon's house for another go at it. But I think Mike is getting his with tube rectification so it will be interesting to see what he thinks of it in his system.
 
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