What's with the trend in amp design?

Mike

Mike

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I am seeing, or should I say, hearing, so many new amps that have voicing that is very tipped up in the upper range. Bright. Sibilant. Aggressive.

Now, I realize some people may actually like "bite", but most do not.

I do not understand this trend. Where did it come from? Is it coming from a particular reviewer who likely can't hear above 10Khz? Is it coming from customers? Where is it coming from?

I'm afraid all this does is lead back to the infamous Toole's Circle of Confusion.
 
GSOphile said:
Mike,
Are you seeing this in any particular price category or market segment - or across the board?
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More in redesigns. “We need a new version, let’s tip it up.” What’s guiding these decisions? I’m trying to figure out - is this through market research? Influence from reviewers? I mean, JV is constantly praising top end extension. Is it coming from there?

Am I alone in this? Maybe others aren’t hearing it.


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I've heard and owned a lot of amps. Some of the newest were certainly more "open" and "clean". I am not a fan. I can't stand the truth, or too forward a sound. :)

I always prefer sweeter and slightly rounded highs. A lot of the newer amps, to my ear, seem more aggressive.
 
BlueFox said:
Maybe the amps are doing their job, and exposing something downstream.
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You might be correct. A more accurate interpretation of the music.

As I stated elsewhere swapping out my original Momentum's (part of the first 35 pair produced) for new M-400's has been great except they can be very unforgiving with a poor or hot recording. Everything is more accurate but that has changed what I hear in the highs so far.
 
Hi Jim,

I’m sure a little break in might help the situation. My amps are well broken in and while I agree the M400 amps are clear and open, they are the opposite of harsh or aggressive. A few of my previous amps were very uncomfortable. These D’Agostino amps are stunning, in my opinion. I’m a little sensitive to sibilants and my amps have none of it. They truly are the best amps I’ve ever owned .


still-one said:
You might be correct. A more accurate interpretation of the music.

As I stated elsewhere swapping out my original Momentum's (part of the first 35 pair produced) for new M-400's has been great except they can be very unforgiving with a poor or hot recording. Everything is more accurate but that has changed what I hear in the highs so far.
Click to expand...
 
Mike said:
I am seeing, or should I say, hearing, so many new amps that have voicing that is very tipped up in the upper range. Bright. Sibilant. Aggressive.

Now, I realize some people may actually like "bite", but most do not.

I do not understand this trend. Where did it come from? Is it coming from a particular reviewer who likely can't hear above 10Khz? Is it coming from customers? Where is it coming from?

I'm afraid all this does is lead back to the infamous Toole's Circle of Confusion.
Click to expand...

Mike,

Do you have some amplifier models in mind you could share?

What conditions the objects of this trend was observed under? (speakers,preamp, sources, etc.)

Dre
 
It seems like most positive reviews say something like, "all of the resolve but without the harsh digital edge." Maybe this is the mark that every manufacturer is trying to hit, but very few actually do.
 
Mike said:
I do not understand this trend. Where did it come from? Is it coming from a particular reviewer who likely can't hear above 10Khz? Is it coming from customers? Where is it coming from?
Click to expand...
Well, if the designer of said amp can't hear above 10k, that might provide some clues. It might be going unnoticed where it needs to be noticed most.
That said, the specific mystery amp may be misbehaving in a particular setup, rather than across the board. Name some names ;-)
 
Dre_J said:
Mike,

Do you have some amplifier models in mind you could share?

What conditions the objects of this trend was observed under? (speakers,preamp, sources, etc.)

Dre
Click to expand...

I don’t want to pick out any particular amps, because there’s likely people here who own them. But Joe and I have talked extensively about particular amps in private. We are in agreement.

We have seen people buy amps and flip them very fast. Uh hum...

I’ve just noticed a real trend for treble extension, increased sibilance and “bite” across SOME new SS amps and I’m trying understand why. What on earth would drive such voicing changes?


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Mike said:
I don’t want to pick out any particular amps, because there’s likely people here who own them. But Joe and I have talked extensively about particular amps in private. We are in agreement.

We have seen people buy amps and flip them very fast. Uh hum...

I’ve just noticed a real trend for treble extension, increased sibilance and “bite” across SOME new SS amps and I’m trying understand why. What on earth would drive such voicing changes?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I don't know Mike. Without scenarios and names it's hard to know a specific perspective for sure.

What I can say is there is just as much variety in sonic choice (pick your favorite attribute and insert it here) as there has been in recent years. I'm uncertain if this is a trend given the choices available.

System matching seems to be the case (or not) for some situations that gives the results we notice. At this day and age, I'd expect any amplifier to be free from egregious distortions. Voicing is one thing but I don't expect a quality amplifier to have distortion causing/related issues you mentioned.

Finally, there are so many variables with each individual system that it's hard to pin down when things are not functioning well -at least not in unfamiliar systems. The again, sometimes the new equipment just doesn't work in the system the way the new owner thought it would.

Dre
 
I am one that doesn't particularly care for rounded sound, I do like extended highs and air, however, if the overall sound is out of balance, for example the highs draw my attention, that's a turn off and especially if the highs aren't smooth or have a bite. So maybe I'm even harder to please, LOL

Mike I'm sure hears more gear then mme to say, I have not noticed the trend. I'm confident in your assessment though. I personally was under the impression an industry trend in amps was to move to the warm side of neutral.

I'm also wondering how much, if any, is attributed to newer tweeter material. Not that brillium is bad, just as an example,, a lot of manufacturers are using it, I suppose as a selling point. I see more ribbons than ever before, more horns. It's all in application as to if it crosses a line. Even done well, the higher the resolution the better the upstream has to be.
 
You raise some excellent points. I was speaking more of v1 to v2 for an amp. If 1.0 sounds great, why dramatically change the house sound in the 2.0? Just refine it a little, but don’t make a BMW into a Kia just for the sake of change.


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Mike said:
You raise some excellent points. I was speaking more of v1 to v2 for an amp. If 1.0 sounds great, why dramatically change the house sound in the 2.0? Just refine it a little, but don’t make a BMW into a Kia just for the sake of change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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That's being more specific. I've observed voicing changes going in both directions before. It's a valid observation.
 
Dre_J said:
That's being more specific. I've observed voicing changes going in both directions before. It's a valid observation.
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Perhaps the subjective taste of the designer? For example like Pass. He said a few times in that he voices his amps to sound like tubes. That is one of his design goals.

Or perhaps maybe you have something downstream coloring the sound? As another member posted.
 
For my taste, splitting the difference between the Pass Labs .5 and .8 amps might be perfect. I think the new 611/1.25 McIntosh amps may have overshot the 452/601/1.2 amps too much.

I loved my CJ ART amps, but I have not heard the new 40th anniversary series. I read comments like “extended highs” on the new gear and it makes me a little nervous. I confess to wanting an ART 150 for the heck of it, but I’d absolutely need a demo before buying.
 
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joeinid said:
For my taste, splitting the difference between the Pass Labs .5 and .8 amps might be perfect.
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Pass has already done this with the XS series. And they are. ;)

It would be interesting to find out which speakers and cables were used for voicing these overly bright sounding amps. Nowadays it seems there's a bigger difference than ever between those that are revealing and those that are "rounded".
 
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