What components most influence sound stage depth?

GSOphile

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In your experience what components - speakers, amps, pre-amps, sources, cables, conditioners, iso products, etc - contribute most (and least, or not at all) to a deeper apparent sound stage? Obviously the room and setup will have a huge influence, but I'm most interested here in component contributions... since we frequently hear claims of this or that component contributing to a deeper sound stage.
 
1) Setup
2) Room
3) Speaker DESIGN (dipole, omnipole, planar magnetic, electrostatic, horn, cone & dome, etc.)
4) Source
5) PreAmp
6) Amp
7) Cables
 
That is tough to answer. It all matters. Certainly, preamp and source and then maybe amp but for some gear it may be in a different order. Speakers play a big part but they are down stream from the electronics and without a good signal, it does not matter how good the speakers are except maybe for speakers like Martin Logans. Every ML speaker I have heard sounds holographic no matter the electronics. But as usual, YMMV.
 
Great thread. I am also interested in knowing what others think.

One question - can a setup create both a deeper and a bigger (like 3d holographic) soundstage at the same time ? I have seen setups which create an astonishing front to back (thus deeper) soundstage but the image height is limited. Vice-versa, a big 3d holographic soundstage lacks a front to back depth. By a setup, I mean a combination of room, speaker, electronics, etc.
 
IMO, the speakers are the primary contributor of the soundstage that we listen to a particular setup - the room, positioning, treatments and electronics (in order) only maximizes it's effect.
 
1) Setup
2) Room
3) Speaker DESIGN (dipole, omnipole, planar magnetic, electrostatic, horn, cone & dome, etc.)
4) Source
5) PreAmp
6) Amp
7) Cables

Mike, when you highlight speaker “DESIGN” are you implicitly saying that certain DESIGNS are likely to provide better soundstage? And if so, in what order would you rate the speaker DESIGNS from the soundstage point of view?
 
Mike, when you highlight speaker “DESIGN” are you implicitly saying that certain DESIGNS are likely to provide better soundstage? And if so, in what order would you rate the speaker DESIGNS from the soundstage point of view?

Nicoff - I can make some generalization concerning design and their overall affect on soundstaging.

I always prefer to look at a speaker in terms of its design rather brand A is better than brand B. Once we decide on a design, then we can have discussions regarding our preference for brand A vs brand B. At the outset, each design has its pro's and con's and some designs are jack of all trades, master of none. It's amazing to me how often we get caught up in arguments like: "Rockport is better than Wilson or Wilson is better than B&W or Tidal speakers are better than YG or Harbeth is better than Spendor or Martin Logan is better than Raidho and so on." One need only compare the design of the new Borensen speakers to Raidho speakers to understand what I'm trying to say.

Instead, I think we advance as audiophiles once we begin to look at different designs and understand what they do well and what their short falls are and their strengths are. I don't look at Magenepan's and think "Magnepan vs B&W". I look at Magnepan and think "planar magnetic" and start thinking about that design. How does that design interact with the room? How does that design interact with the listener? How is that design off-axis? How is that design with accompanying equipment, cables and sources? How does that design deliver ultimate dynamics? And so on...

There are so many wonderful designs to deliver music. Cone & dome is by far the most popular and quite honestly, offers many wonderful advantages and is probably why it's so popular, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate, understand and experience other designs.

Back to your question....when we are defining soundstage, it's important to look at a number of factors (3D/depth, width and height to name a few). I think the soundstage champion, that I've heard, has to be omnipolar designs by the simple nature of their intended design and the more the speaker incorporates more omnipolar design principles and technology, the greater the affect on soundstaging. What do I mean? Speakers which use a dipole tweeter, such as the old Mirage speakers can't compare to a speaker which incorporates omnipolar tweeter, midrange and midbass (down to 100hz for example).

Dipoles, which can include planar magnetic and electrostatic would come in second. Horns and Cone & Domes would come in third. This does not mean that a cone & dome speaker can't be setup to achieve greater soundstaging than a dipole. We have all heard incredible soundstaging by many traditional box speakers. What it means is that different designs attempt to achieve different and superior results in certain areas. For example, by the sheer nature of their design, horns can offer the greatest level of dynamics without sacrificing time domain issues like some line arrays for example. However, even with horns, proper care must be taken should the bass horns be separate from the midrange and tweeter.

I find speaker designs absolutely fascinating and there are many areas of exploration. We could start a whole new thread about the integration of different driver designs within a single speaker (plasma tweeter with traditional cone drivers for example or cone drivers with or without wave guides with horns). This is where the issue of coherency comes into play. A plasma tweeter might be the greatest thing in the world, but if it doesn't integrate well with the other drivers, then who cares? Then we can look at speakers with external crossovers, active speakers vs passive and so on.
 
Nicoff - I can make some generalization concerning design and their overall affect on soundstaging.

I always prefer to look at a speaker in terms of its design rather brand A is better than brand B. Once we decide on a design, then we can have discussions regarding our preference for brand A vs brand B. At the outset, each design has its pro's and con's and some designs are jack of all trades, master of none. It's amazing to me how often we get caught up in arguments like: "Rockport is better than Wilson or Wilson is better than B&W or Tidal speakers are better than YG or Harbeth is better than Spendor or Martin Logan is better than Raidho and so on." One need only compare the design of the new Borensen speakers to Raidho speakers to understand what I'm trying to say.

Instead, I think we advance as audiophiles once we begin to look at different designs and understand what they do well and what their short falls are and their strengths are. I don't look at Magenepan's and think "Magnepan vs B&W". I look at Magnepan and think "planar magnetic" and start thinking about that design. How does that design interact with the room? How does that design interact with the listener? How is that design off-axis? How is that design with accompanying equipment, cables and sources? How does that design deliver ultimate dynamics? And so on...

There are so many wonderful designs to deliver music. Cone & dome is by far the most popular and quite honestly, offers many wonderful advantages and is probably why it's so popular, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate, understand and experience other designs.

Back to your question....when we are defining soundstage, it's important to look at a number of factors (3D/depth, width and height to name a few). I think the soundstage champion, that I've heard, has to be omnipolar designs by the simple nature of their intended design and the more the speaker incorporates more omnipolar design principles and technology, the greater the affect on soundstaging. What do I mean? Speakers which use a dipole tweeter, such as the old Mirage speakers can't compare to a speaker which incorporates omnipolar tweeter, midrange and midbass (down to 100hz for example).

Dipoles, which can include planar magnetic and electrostatic would come in second. Horns and Cone & Domes would come in third. This does not mean that a cone & dome speaker can't be setup to achieve greater soundstaging than a dipole. We have all heard incredible soundstaging by many traditional box speakers. What it means is that different designs attempt to achieve different and superior results in certain areas. For example, by the sheer nature of their design, horns can offer the greatest level of dynamics without sacrificing time domain issues like some line arrays for example. However, even with horns, proper care must be taken should the bass horns be separate from the midrange and tweeter.

I find speaker designs absolutely fascinating and there are many areas of exploration. We could start a whole new thread about the integration of different driver designs within a single speaker (plasma tweeter with traditional cone drivers for example or cone drivers with or without wave guides with horns). This is where the issue of coherency comes into play. A plasma tweeter might be the greatest thing in the world, but if it doesn't integrate well with the other drivers, then who cares? Then we can look at speakers with external crossovers, active speakers vs passive and so on.

Thank you Mike! Very enlightening information!
 
I'll throw in my 2 cents. Everything is important without a doubt. But IMO speakers have the greatest impact on SQ. All speakers have a house sound to a point. Find the sound you like the most from speakers. From there you tailor the sound with everything else to improve on that house sound.

That said I have to agree with Lars K said at the last Axpona demo regarding cables. Start with a foundation - that being from the wall to distribution or components. I was amazed how much better my system improved adding layers of resolution I never knew were there. What I still can't figure out is when I had a Bryston and Dyn C1 speakers the speaker cables made the biggest difference with power cords needing to squint to hear the difference. Now it's just the opposite. Once that is straightened out I would say source followed by the amp (although a pre may have a bigger impact compared to an amp). I've always had integrated's. But in my mind the pre is closer to the source for SQ.

With all that in mind remember everyone has different expectations and tastes when it comes to SQ. Again everything makes a difference but I still say speakers have the greatest impact in SQ IMO. It's all about total system synergy not just 1 component.
 
Good thread. :thumbsup:

From my experience it all starts with the recording.
If that isn't done properly, you can have the best components but will still have mediocre sound.

Our room was treated recently, and speakers' placement meticulously adjusted, and it had a massive impact.

So source material, room, speaker placement (and of course quality), it all has to be good. Start with that.
Only then I would consider upgrading the rest.
 
Good thread. :thumbsup:

From my experience it all starts with the recording.
If that isn't done properly, you can have the best components but will still have mediocre sound.

Our room was treated recently, and speakers' placement meticulously adjusted, and it had a massive impact.

So source material, room, speaker placement (and of course quality), it all has to be good. Start with that.
Only then I would consider upgrading the rest.

I agree with the recording, as it will make great systems not sound their best and leave you scratching your head.

This does take away from proper power and electrical and mechanical grounding supporting speaker and component selection.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Good thread. :thumbsup:

From my experience it all starts with the recording.
If that isn't done properly, you can have the best components but will still have mediocre sound.

Our room was treated recently, and speakers' placement meticulously adjusted, and it had a massive impact.

So source material, room, speaker placement (and of course quality), it all has to be good. Start with that.
Only then I would consider upgrading the rest.

IMO, by far the most important aspect - and the one that MUST be addressed before moving speakers around, and pretty much anything else - is locating the best listening position first. Locating the optimum listening seat position is the Anchor Point for all else that follows. If you don’t do that, you will NEVER experience what your system can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
IMO, by far the most important aspect - and the one that MUST be addressed before moving speakers around, and pretty much anything else - is locating the best listening position first. Locating the optimum listening seat position is the Anchor Point for all else that follows. If you don’t do that, you will NEVER experience what your system can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you Jim. I have been saying the same since the early 80s. Along with a "good chair" (I don't like high backs or recliners if I am optimizing) nothing in my opinion will effect soundstage as much. Couldn't agree more.
 
Good thread. :thumbsup:

From my experience it all starts with the recording.
If that isn't done properly, you can have the best components but will still have mediocre sound.

Our room was treated recently, and speakers' placement meticulously adjusted, and it had a massive impact.

So source material, room, speaker placement (and of course quality), it all has to be good. Start with that.
Only then I would consider upgrading the rest.

Bart
I am going to disagree a bit here. In general the recording has little to do with my enjoyment of a piece of music. Let me clarify my position. I would never purchase music only because it is well recorded. On the other hand I own and listen to music that is really poorly recorded because the performer or performance grabs my attention.
 
Bart
I am going to disagree a bit here. In general the recording has little to do with my enjoyment of a piece of music. Let me clarify my position. I would never purchase music only because it is well recorded. On the other hand I own and listen to music that is really poorly recorded because the performer or performance grabs my attention.

Really there’s no choice in recordings, essentially you get what you get, otherwise you will limit yourself on artists, albums and songs.

Great recordings bring the best out of the system especially as each of the system and room attributes are addressed to ones ability over time.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
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