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Thread: Shots fired!

  1. #1
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    Shots fired!

    What happens when the meter readers disagree!

    GR Research LGK 2.0 Speaker Review (A Joke) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

    And

    GR Research X-LS Encore Kit Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

    And the response….

    Our Goals, Trolls and The Distorted Truth - YouTube
    **(Start at 10 minute mark)**


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    Re: Shots fired!

    Hateful discourse and unending strife. I have learned it is best for me as an audiophile to not partake in that dark sector of our hobby. Cancel culture runs deep in some forums.
    Marty

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    Re: Shots fired!


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    Re: Shots fired!

    IMO Amir has shown he did not understand the idea behind this speaker. It is small, desktop speaker meant for nearfild listening, which by design (and the laws of physics) will not have bass. You just can't have any bass from 3" driver. You have to either accept it, as it is the case with all desktop speakers or run a separate subwoofer with them (woofer would probably be a better term here) to get a more full range sound.

    I have watched many GR Research vids and the guy looks like he knows what he is talking about.

    Amir seems to be impressed by the larger GR Research speaker kit he measured (second link).

    I read ASR for Amir's measurements, but don't even bother reading the comments. Just a waste of time. ASR community is a flat earth society of sorts for me.
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  5. #5

    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by Elberoth View Post
    IMO Amir has shown he did not understand the idea behind this speaker. It is small, desktop speaker meant for nearfild listening, which by design (and the laws of physics) will not have bass. You just can't have any bass from 3" driver. You have to either accept it, as it is the case with all desktop speakers or run a separate subwoofer with them (woofer would probably be a better term here) to get a more full range sound.

    I have watched many GR Research vids and the guy looks like he knows what he is talking about.

    Amir seems to be impressed by the larger GR Research speaker kit he measured (second link).

    I read ASR for Amir's measurements, but don't even bother reading the comments. Just a waste of time. ASR community is a flat earth society of sorts for me.
    I thought reading ASR for Amir's measurements was akin to asking the Flat Earth Society for a map to sail around the world.
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Marty

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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Who is projecting onto whom?
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Who is projecting onto whom?
    The "trust eyes", "just look" subjective "empirical observation", earth is as flat as far as the eyes can see folks...calling technically/scientifically literate spherical planets types "Flat earthers".
    Comedy gold.

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    Re: Shots fired!

    AJ, you should send a pair of your speakers to Amir to be measured and tested.


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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    The "trust eyes", "just look" subjective "empirical observation", earth is as flat as far as the eyes can see folks...calling technically/scientifically literate spherical planets types "Flat earthers".
    Comedy gold.
    Despite the name of Amir's website, he is not "scientifically literate", and his technical credentials and abilities have been questioned by some EE's with more education and knowledge. Also remember that while the "upper echelon" of scientific thinkers in the late Middle Ages knew that the Earth was both round and revolved around the sun, there were plenty of self proclaimed "authorities" at the time who did not seem to be aware of this.

    Being dogmatic at either end of the spectrum merely illustrates the Dunning-Kreuger effect.
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Leave us flat earthers out of the ASR confliction.
    Marty

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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Despite the name of Amir's website, he is not "scientifically literate"
    I know, you're obviously oblivious to our history on AVS, HA, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Also remember that while the "upper echelon" of scientific thinkers in the late Middle Ages knew that the Earth was both round and revolved around the sun, there were plenty of self proclaimed "authorities" at the time who did not seem to be aware of this.
    Completely irrelevant to 2022 projectionists. The hilarity of Flat Earther projection remains.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Being dogmatic at either end of the spectrum merely illustrates the Dunning-Kreuger effect.
    Kruger.
    No, that's called false equivalence. Not what Dr Dunning found at all. It was the "one end of the spectrum" being completely oblivious of their place on the spectrum. The "other" end had (self) awareness of spectrum.
    I find the whole audio celebrity Youtube beef thing to be highly amusing. Solid entertainment.

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    Re: Shots fired!

    I would say that each end of the subjectivist/objectivist (audio) spectrum is oblivious, which I thought was clear.

    No, I am not aware of your history with Amir, only my own. I do know that he is banned from AVS Forums. I also know that over the course of many emails and one in-person discussion he simply refused to acknowledge that 1) there are many EE's and physicists who are more knowledgable and better educated than he in matters of both audio electronics and the physics of sound, and 2) that the scientific method of establishing fact (or evidence) involves more than simply performing a (self-chosen) suite of measurements - except when discussing methods of speaker evaluation as performed at Harman labs.

    Most of us know about how Harman evaluates speaker preference, and the significant limitations of its approach (although to be fair it has also produced useful information). And to be clear, if it isn't, I am not saying that I know more than Amir about performing measurements; what he does he now does pretty well (and that has not always been true). Others who do know more than either Amir or I have expressed their opinions about that, and whether he is measuring the "right" things and interpreting them correctly.
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    And the response….

    Our Goals, Trolls and The Distorted Truth - YouTube
    **(Start at 10 minute mark)**
    Epic stiff arm by Danny! Danny completely dismantles Amir's scientific method.

    We have a saying for this in Hindi that goes "bandar ke haath mein bandook" which translates to giving a monkey a loaded gun.
    I think that pretty much summarizes all that Amir does at ASR.



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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Most of us know about how Harman evaluates speaker preference
    Not sure who "us" is in this context, but ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    and the significant limitations of its approach (although to be fair it has also produced useful information).
    Well I'm a long time AES and IEEE member and would be happy to look at any published work about "significant limitations", as I'm pretty well versed in this area. Links?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    And to be clear, if it isn't, I am not saying that I know more than Amir about performing measurements; what he does he now does pretty well (and that has not always been true). Others who do know more than either Amir or I have expressed their opinions about that, and whether he is measuring the "right" things and interpreting them correctly.
    No one sensible should associate/conflate what Amir does and Harman, sorry. The Klippel NFS yields excellent data. The data itself he publishes looks fine to me. The comments, drawn "fit" lines, interpretations, etc vary from reasonable to complete nonsense. I usually skip any "subjective" comments as they lean toward the latter. None of which has anything to do with the scientific method as published by Harman et al. Yes, I'm aware he "listens" in mono. NOT like Harman.

    cheers,

    AJ

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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil View Post
    Epic stiff arm by Danny! Danny completely dismantles Amir's scientific method.
    We have a saying for this in Hindi that goes "bandar ke haath mein bandook" which translates to giving a monkey a loaded gun.
    I think that pretty much summarizes all that Amir does at ASR..
    Didn't watch video (even though I'm friends with Danny), but it seems the main "beef" is a 3" fullrange speaker kit.
    That, in of itself, makes me laugh. A lot.

    cheers,

    AJ

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    Re: Shots fired!

    Why are we airing ASR dirty laundry on AudioShark? We are not advancing anything constructive related to the audio hobby. IMHO
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Didn't watch video (even though I'm friends with Danny), but it seems the main "beef" is a 3" fullrange speaker kit.
    That, in of itself, makes me laugh. A lot.

    cheers,

    AJ
    Actually it's even better. Amir built the speaker without insulation (because the kit did not include it). He also does not round off the edges (edge diffraction?) or consider any of the other recommended improvements (No Rez etc). He then criticizes the data he has measured on spectral decay, impedance and port noise etc completely oblivious to the effects of enclosure resonance on all those measurements.



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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikhil View Post
    Amir built the speaker without insulation (because the kit did not include it)
    He didn't build either speaker, just measure. But yes, it's helpful to test something properly, as would be presented to users.
    Please see latest link above.
    Again, not much can be done to a 3" fullrange. Except laugh at the whole drama its created. Yes, I know there's more to the beef, but it seemed the final straw/trigger. Lets enjoy the show, shall we?

    cheers,

    AJ

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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    ...Yes, I'm aware he "listens" in mono. NOT like Harman.

    cheers,

    AJ
    I'm sorry, I must be a bit out of date. Harman no longer tests one speaker at a time, but rather stereo pairs? I do know that when Amir worked for Harman (and even after he left) they tested only in mono.

    At one point many years ago Amir measured a bunch of different cables, including a coat hanger, and found that they all measured about the same (L, C, R, and frequency response in the audible range).

    Why does he not measure impulse response for DAC's?
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Harman no longer tests one speaker at a time, but rather stereo pairs?
    No, the opposite, they test almost exclusively in mono, after initially testing in stereo when they got the shuffler. I corresponded with Toole about this long ago. The correlation was inevitable that the mono winner also won in stereo. There's never been an opposite. There have been close exceptions like the Quad ESL. But no reverse. You have to also understand the context. 99.9% of the market are monopoles, which is also what they make/sell. The chance of a reverse there is zero. They can/would test in stereo for something unusual. The shuffler does both. Mono is extremely revealing for FR errors, resonances and a host of other issues critical when developing. I know, since I do. Its quite startling if you've never done. Now for spatial aspects, while mono is highly predictive for monopoles, stereo is still better for special cases.
    I cannot trust the Harman speaker preference score | Page 37 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
    So test in mono, but listen in both mono/stereo if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    I do know that when Amir worked for Harman (and even after he left) they tested only in mono.
    Amir has never worked for Harman. He worked at Microsoft.

    cheers,

    AJ

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    Re: Shots fired!

    It will be interesting to read the fallout between fans on both sides. I briefly met Danny at CES a number of years back and invited him to our room to meet and talk with Andy Payor. I have also been a long time member at the AudioCircles where Danny has a company forum. I know he has done design work for other companies over the years.
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    No, the opposite, they test almost exclusively in mono, after initially testing in stereo when they got the shuffler. I corresponded with Toole about this long ago. The correlation was inevitable that the mono winner also won in stereo. There's never been an opposite. There have been close exceptions like the Quad ESL. But no reverse. You have to also understand the context. 99.9% of the market are monopoles, which is also what they make/sell. The chance of a reverse there is zero. They can/would test in stereo for something unusual. The shuffler does both. Mono is extremely revealing for FR errors, resonances and a host of other issues critical when developing. I know, since I do. Its quite startling if you've never done. Now for spatial aspects, while mono is highly predictive for monopoles, stereo is still better for special cases.
    I cannot trust the Harman speaker preference score | Page 37 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
    So test in mono, but listen in both mono/stereo if needed.


    Amir has never worked for Harman. He worked at Microsoft.

    cheers,

    AJ
    So why did you originally post that Harman does NOT test in mono (post #17)? Or did you mean they listen in stereo and test in mono (not exactly what you posted, though)? And the unreliable results testing only one dipole on their rotating turntable set-up is what I meant by "limitations"; there are a lot of dipole speakers these days.

    Amir either worked for or contracted with Harman after leaving Microsoft. He purchased most of his current "reference" system from them at employee pricing, and was involved with parts of their speaker research, including at least the JBL Everest (according to him).
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    So why did you originally post that Harman does NOT test in mono (post #17)? Or did you mean they listen in stereo and test in mono (not exactly what you posted, though)?
    Sheesh, I even put the quote marks as emphasis, nothing about Harman not listening in mono, but not "listening".
    Yes, I'm aware he "listens" in mono. NOT like Harman.
    Meaning Harmans mono is "trust ears","just listen", Amirs is anything but. Both mono, but one eyes wide open, mind churning those audiophile beliefs, etc, etc. NOT the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    And the unreliable results testing only one dipole on their rotating turntable set-up is what I meant by "limitations"; there are a lot of dipole speakers these days.
    Huh? Please link the "reliable" results that contradict their "unreliable" dipole ones. You seem almost lower spectrum oblivious to what they actually do . There is no "rotating turntable", its a robotic system that grabs and places (shuffles) the speaker in place. Wish I had one!
    I cited Olive himself acknowledging the need for something with full dipole like directivity to probably be mono/stereo tested. Linked above.
    What's the "limitation" there?? And again, dipoles are still a miniscule part of the total consumer market, including the high end. Heck, Mike doesnt carry a single one ;-).
    Look forward to your dipoles test data links.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Amir either worked for or contracted with Harman after leaving Microsoft. He purchased most of his current "reference" system from them at employee pricing, and was involved with parts of their speaker research, including at least the JBL Everest (according to him).
    No idea where you got this misinformation. Amir never ever worked for Harman. His Madrona home automation business carries Harman products, so he's a dealer and thus gets dealer pricing on his personal stuff. It would be really helpful to provide links to what you claim.

    cheers,

    AJ

  28. #28
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Heck, Mike doesnt carry a single one ;-).
    cheers,

    AJ
    Not so fast. Shots fired!

    More to follow.





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    Re: Shots fired!

    Ruh roh. What are those?
    Bottom ones look Apogee-ish

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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    ...
    No idea where you got this misinformation.
    AJ
    From Amir's posts at WBF. I should have put "rotating turntable" in quotes; that was indeed only a metaphor for the layout at Harman's labs, which has been described in detail by Sean Olive, as you note.

    As far as dipoles, there are more every year, and aimed almost exclusively at the high-end, so certainly if you include the entire home speaker market they will (probably) never have more than a small fraction of it. OTOH, most people buying home speakers don't care about the results of Harman's tests either.
    Rob
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  31. #31
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Ruh roh. What are those?
    Bottom ones look Apogee-ish
    Alysvox?
    Rob
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  32. #32
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    Re: Shots fired!

    No, I cheated with Google Lens and the name at bottom of top pic made sense. But I'll let Mike break the news.

    Ok take my word, Amir has never designed a speaker in his life, nor worked for Harman. Just a dealer. He's probably attended some of their dealer classes and been to the test lab with shuffler, so experienced their blind testing procedure, where its entirely possible to test dipoles, in stereo. No "limitations". It's my understanding that for a fee, one can even bring own speakers. Should one be so inclined.

    cheers
    AJ

  33. #33
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    Alysvox?
    Nope. Way overpriced.


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  34. #34
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    No, I cheated with Google Lens and the name at bottom of top pic made sense. But I'll let Mike break the news.

    Ok take my word, Amir has never designed a speaker in his life, nor worked for Harman. Just a dealer. He's probably attended some of their dealer classes and been to the test lab with shuffler, so experienced their blind testing procedure, where its entirely possible to test dipoles, in stereo. No "limitations". It's my understanding that for a fee, one can even bring own speakers. Should one be so inclined.

    cheers
    AJ
    I’m quite willing to believe you over Amir, who has had an issue with inflating his importance in the audio world (maybe still does).
    Rob
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  35. #35
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Nope. Way overpriced.


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    Isn’t here a US dealer who posts here?
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  36. #36
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by rbbert View Post
    I’m quite willing to believe you over Amir, who has had an issue with inflating his importance in the audio world (maybe still does).
    Just make sure youre sitting when you see the prices of Mikes new dipoles, in case you were interested

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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Just make sure youre sitting when you see the prices of Mikes new dipoles, in case you were interested
    Compared to that other brand, they sound better and are a fraction of the price. $35k gets you a killer model.


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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Just make sure youre sitting when you see the prices of Mikes new dipoles, in case you were interested
    As I said, new dipoles are aimed at the high-end market, so even though there may be many new models, sales volume will remain small
    Rob
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  39. #39
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Compared to that other brand, they sound better and are a fraction of the price. $35k gets you a killer model.
    Ah, ok, but the ones you have pictured above are a wee bit more than that...

  40. #40
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Ah, ok, but the ones you have pictured above are a wee bit more than that...
    Those are the big boys!


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  41. #41

    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Compared to that other brand, they sound better and are a fraction of the price. $35k gets you a killer model.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    The Studio Plus model looks intriguing. Have you heard them, Mike ?

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    Re: Shots fired!

    Who is the manufacturer of the speakers?
    Synology 1019D+ - SGC Sonictransporter I9 w Roon/HQ Player- UltraRendu- PBD Stream IF to Playback Designs MPS5 via fiber optic - ARC 40th Anniversary Pre - ARC 610 T's - Martin Logan CLX's - 4 Martin Logan Depth i Subs - Shunyata Hydra, DIY PCOCC interconnects, speaker cables and power cords with Furutech terminations. Audio Quest Vodka CAT 7's. Acoustically treated room with one permanent chair.

  43. #43
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    Re: Shots fired!

    Quote Originally Posted by brad225 View Post
    Who is the manufacturer of the speakers?
    Stay tuned. We will do an official launch in another few weeks.


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