Thread: Expectation Bias - so demonstrated..........

Whether you want to believe or not ............

Audio Listening Test That Fooled the Hollywood Sapphire Group | Audioholics

I read that from another site. They did not account for the 2 positions of the switch or the fact that Blue LEDs sound different than the Red ones.

Reminds me of the fuses we tried. One even costing $1500. The folks who were blindfolded could not tell any difference with any of the fuses.

I guess if you find a fuse that messes with the sound, that could change things. But is it better?

Curious: do aftermarket fuses void warranties?


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Nobody forces any of us to spend our $ on this or any other hobby.

If you feel you have to justify it for some reason, okay then.

Personally, I use measurements, listening judgments, emotion and whatever else comes along at the time to make my purchasing decisions and don’t feel I have to justify my reasons to anyone.

Originally Posted by Mike

Reminds me of the fuses we tried. One even costing $1500. The folks who were blindfolded could not tell any difference with any of the fuses.

I guess if you find a fuse that messes with the sound, that could change things. But is it better?

Curious: do aftermarket fuses void warranties?


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If the aftermarket fuses were not provided from the manufacturer and the aftermarket fuse was responsible for damaging the gear and burning your house down, your warranty will be null and void. If you burn your house down because of an aftermarket fuse and the insurance company discovers the cause of the fire, your home insurance policy will also be null and voided.

Originally Posted by crwilli

Nobody forces any of us to spend our $ on this or any other hobby.

If you feel you have to justify it for some reason, okay then.

Personally, I use measurements, listening judgments, emotion and whatever else comes along at the time to make my purchasing decisions and don’t feel I have to justify my reasons to anyone.

100% agree. As long as you are happy, that's all that matters.

Originally Posted by mep

If the aftermarket fuses were not provided from the manufacturer and the aftermarket fuse was responsible for damaging the gear and burning your house down, your warranty will be null and void. If you burn your house down because of an aftermarket fuse and the insurance company discovers the cause of the fire, your home insurance policy will also be null and voided.

Funny they don’t mention that.


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Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield

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"The industry’s most experienced, objective, and trusted ears had been conned."

Now, this is text taken from the article.

I personally have never heard of this group but given the test? "Trusted Ears"?

Tom

Originally Posted by bryans

The only thing I trust is mine and my wife's ears. I have been in listening sessions when people say they hear things that I don't.

Did you ever consider that the people who say they can hear things you don't are correct and they really are hearing things you aren't?

Originally Posted by mep

Did you ever consider that the people who say they can hear things you don't are correct and they really are hearing things you aren't?

Or !, they are just screwing with ya to make you think they hear things you aren't.

Originally Posted by mep

Did you ever consider that the people who say they can hear things you don't are correct and they really are hearing things you aren't?

The only thing I consider at that point is respect for the fact that everyone listens differently; often, with their own agenda, biases, and preferences in tow. They are free to listen and perceive as they wish.

Beyond that, no, there is nothing to consider. This is especially true when people exhibit biases and/or agenda at any time during or prior to the event.

If someone has a price-motivated or profit motivation underlying, then also, no consideration given.

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Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

The only thing I consider at that point is respect for the fact that everyone listens differently; often, with their own agenda, biases, and preferences in tow. They are free to listen and perceive as they wish.

Beyond that, no, there is nothing to consider. This is especially true when people exhibit biases and/or agenda at any time during or prior to the event.

If someone has a price-motivated or profit motivation underlying, then also, no consideration given.

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I actually directed my commnets to Bryans, but I appreciate your input. My only point is that if you have friends/guests/visitors over to hear your system and they claim to hear things in your system that you aren't, I wouldn't dismiss their claims out of hand. It doesn't mean you personally find their comments relative, but if you have a quorum of people over time that make similar comments about what they are hearing even though you don't, they may have a point.

Originally Posted by nicoff

From the article: "The membership consists of highly experienced recording engineers, equipment designers, equipment manufacturers, and more recently, other professionals working in the video and television industries. Membership is by invitation only: you must be a bona fide audio professional with experience and references to be considered for membership. ...."

Sounds like you are not any of the above...

Other than designing my own system? No. I'd personally trust my ears over theirs anyways.

Tom

There was a number in the group who accurately admit they didn't hear any difference, so there's no absolutes. Meaning none of you know which group I'd be in or vice versa.

Originally Posted by mep

I actually directed my commnets to Bryans, but I appreciate your input. My only point is that if you have friends/guests/visitors over to hear your system and they claim to hear things in your system that you aren't, I wouldn't dismiss their claims out of hand. It doesn't mean you personally find their comments relative, but if you have a quorum of people over time that make similar comments about what they are hearing even though you don't, they may have a point.

Good feedback, thank you. I definitely respect their right to hear and talk it through. If I do not hear it the same way, however, I will not push to hear it imagining I heard it wrongly to begin with. To be clear, if someone hears something I did not at all or hears some nuance in an interesting and new way, I would (and have) accepted that and went on with a better listening appreciation.

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Originally Posted by nicoff

You are right! Expectation Bias can occur in the subjectivists camp (who only trust their ears) and the objectivists (who rely on science).
Everyone has the right to their own opinion, but not to his own facts.

agreed

Most manufacturers who provide quality gear reveal in interviews they rely on both measurements and listening.

After reading the article linked to in the OP I clicked on another article at the bottom that talked about speaker measurements. It was pointing out that two speakers with similar flat response plots sounded quite different from one another. The article goes on but that's the bottomline.

I knew way back when looking at Mac specs they showed 1% distortion and receivers showed .000n% yet the Mac was much better to listen to in my opinion.

At the end of the day if you can't trust your ears....... I mean if you want to buy on a spec sheet and listen because you think the paper tells you it sounds good that's up to you. What is it they say these days, you do you. That doesn't work for me personally, when my ears tell me I'm not happy I find they are correct.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

Most manufacturers who provide quality gear reveal in interviews they rely on both measurements and listening.

After reading the article linked to in the OP I clicked on another article at the bottom that talked about speaker measurements. It was pointing out that two speakers with similar flat response plots sounded quite different from one another. The article goes on but that's the bottomline.

I knew way back when looking at Mac specs they showed 1% distortion and receivers showed .000n% yet the Mac was much better to listen to in my opinion.

At the end of the day if you can't trust your ears....... I mean if you want to buy on a spec sheet and listen because you think the paper tells you it sounds good that's up to you. What is it they say these days, you do you. That doesn't work for me personally, when my ears tell me I'm not happy I find they are correct.

Yep, exactly and whereas your ears probably wouldn't notice a 1% thd measurement they sure as heck would if it were excessive, say 5% or more !

Every piece of quality audio gear requires a 'good foundation' , thus the use of measurements. As said before it comes down to objective / subjective interpretation that makes one satisfied, all good !

IDK, maybe i'm a punk. When someone tells me what I can or can't do it rubs me wrong. I used to react in anger now i'm mostly amused. I listened to a pair of hi rez speakers while demoing 3 different dac's a lumin, Nagra, and forgot the 3rd. One of them sounds colored while I really can't tell which of the other 2 is the more expensive one. An expert on another site tells me my brain is tricking me and all dac's and formats sound the same since the 1980's as 16/44 is all our puny little brains can digest, or something. When I was younger I would have spent an hour or two trying to convince this person my experience was real. Back then I could recognise when someone had already made up their mind, but the cause was worth fighting for. These days i'm aware that I don't know what I don't know (maybe someday this person will get there) and instead of trying to convince folk there's audible variables in audio that science wouldn't have time or inclination to measure for (component matching)I just go find someone else to talk to.

As to this specific op Mr Peabody already reiterated the trick didn't fool everybody so what's the point?

Hi Matt. I read your post and you seem to extract a few things to fit a conversation I wasn't having. As an experiment would you consider pretending the folk you interact with all have first hand experience with expectation bias and have each found our own ways to protect ourselves from the sharks in the tank.

My specific remark questioning the variables in what we measure and what we hear was directed specifically at component matching and I'd be surprised to find anyone try to attempt that task. Happy holidays.

From back to front. I actually started a thread on ASR asking why bother rating the dacs reviewed since it's been decided they all measure better than our threshold of hearing. and I need to find it for you because none of the answers argued or answered my question.
Expectation bias is one of the things learned early on shopping and demoing hifi because the law of diminishing returns gets so much steeper the more expensive things get. The way to get past it is to home demo with familiar music, not rush, but listen for differences, define them decide if they're an improvement, a lateral move or regression and then put a personal monetary value on it

Our own way. OK Speaking for myself and only the guys I know the way I deal with expectation bias for me comes from the size splash a product makes on forums like this one. I bought the salon 2 on expectation bias, the most I'd spent on speakers to date, every forum I asked said said go for it! I went for it, luckily used and when they weren't my cuppa I got my money back reselling them.

I read some, not all, but a fair share of the science based audio experts use the term audiophile as a way to corral gear lovers with too much money and too little brains to make an informed decision. Correct me if I'm wrong. OK a simple analogy. I built houses for 40 years, but I have no clue how to make it a home. I may not even fit the narrative for an audiophile. The perfect system is what the owner of it wants it to be. If a guy loves the over the top sound of his local movie theater his ears will take him there. Maybe there's guys that can spend a million bucks on a stereo and the only difference between his kit and the benchmark kit is $25k and 1/2 aluminum case, god bless. The biggest difference between the science based group and hifi lover group is the hifi guy that's telling me his new cables really brought his stereo to a new level isn't trying to tell me my kit is crap and I'm a fool for not knowing better, he's just sharing his passion for the hobby. I haven't found a salesman yet try to sell me cables.

So you correctly pasted my quote I'm old enough to know IDK what IDK, but when you followed up with I know what I don't know it' takes a different meaning, then farther on you quote me as saying I know what I hear, leading with If you're extremely confident.This is your implication NOT my statement. I'm specifically referring to component matching to the point that at this very moment I could swap out a couple amps and 10 out of 10 people would be able to hear the difference. Regarding component matching when on that specific topic I will clarify that when shopping at a price I couldn't tell the budget amps apart. I know you guys are on a mission to educate the unknowing and you probably do, but I learned most of these lessons the hard way 30+ years ago


It's late, I'm struggling to form sentences so will pick up later. I can't even proof it tonight so. goodnight

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

After reading the article linked to in the OP I clicked on another article at the bottom that talked about speaker measurements. It was pointing out that two speakers with similar flat response plots sounded quite different from one another. The article goes on but that's the bottomline.

No that is technical ignorance, because speakers radiate in every direction 3D and don't have "a frequency response" like electronic components. A distance and azimuth must be specific where "flat response" is measured.
If you link an actual article I'd gladly debunk such nonsensical beliefs.

Ok so rereading from my first post and beginning with what I can or can't do rubs me wrong. I'm not saying all science is BS. I challenge the blanket statement that all dacs measurable differences are above the ability for listeners to hear, at least in practice. Regarding the OP's test I wasn't there so can't say if it would satisfy what the experts would consider a controlled environment. As many times as I reread my post I can't find anything offensive, I think you might be looking for something that isn't there. Disclaimer, 10th grade dropout with d- in english. If you choose to analyze every sentence on it's own you will find fault. Consider the entire post.

I can't speak to cables and regarding dacs other than a pair of persona 7f's revealing some midrange glare from a $3k dac when compared to a couple others in the shop my personal stand so far is recording quality is less consistent than dac playback and I question why asr bothers to rate them. Regarding expectation bias I still recognise it as a human tendency, not epidemic. Meaning sure, some people hear what they want to hear, but not everybody and not all the time, just another bump in the road and i'm happy to agree to disagree on that. It is possible for 2 people to be right at the same time... I've been married 34 years

Originally Posted by nicoff

That is a clear example of Expectation Bias. You THINK (i.e., expect) that you are right, but she knows better. Thank HER for keeping it going for 34 years.

Heck, Steve is still on his Honeymoon ! 48 years here