Thread: do i need a sub, or two,

I'm a bit anti-sub in principle and would always advocate buying main speakers that can deliver the bass you need in the first place, for (amongst other reasons) the "clutter" factor you mention.

I note that the speakers you're using have relatively small drivers (7 1/2"), though a number of them. With a budget of £27K list price, I think there are lots of great speakers that can deliver good bass. My own speakers (bought late 2020 with a generous dealer discount) cost around £21K and offer stupendous bass from their twin 12" drivers.

If good deep bass is required (and it should be at this sort of price), I think I'd have gone for speakers with big bass drivers or thereabouts. I've never craved more bass than my main speakers can deliver and they've generally had twin 10", or most recently twin 12" drivers. My first "proper" speakers (from the 1960s) had a 15" bass driver but of course drivers have hugely improved since those days. Big drivers still deliver bass in a far more "relaxed" way than smaller ones.

If your're ever down towards the south coast, I'd welcome a visit and could offer an afternoon of listening - and a glass or two of something! Peter

Originally Posted by greystoke4

Hi as some might know ive just bought Marten quintet speakers, maybe the last ounce of low end is missing, i have a friend who will sell me a pair of Rell T7X subs for £800, less then half price, do i need them, and do i want them, i know they bring more to the party than base, but do i want my room to look like a hifi showroom, plus i will have to get them sprayed white to match my speakers, mike do i need them at this price, and will they make a quality difference , cheers andy will they improve my sound,
thanks andy

Andy, the biggest misnomer is that people think subs are just for “bass”. The biggest effect of multiple subs is to even out room nodes. I have four giant B&W DB1D’s in a 14 x 20 room. NOT for bass, but because my room is so challenging with respect to bass nodes. Four subs even out the bass in my room. Two subs got me 90% of the way there, but four got me 100% of the way there. Would a different TYPE of speaker change things? Perhaps….but with a traditional speaker, this is what is needed in my room.


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Yes, you do need a pair of subs , but with these Martens - you need better subs than T/7x.

I agree with both Mike and Delija.

Of course "need" is probably not the right word, but 2 or more properly setup will make your system better. Don't get just one tho. Definitely get them in pairs.

Originally Posted by greystoke4

Hi as some might know ive just bought Marten quintet Dimond speakers, maybe the last ounce of low end is missing, i have a friend who will sell me a pair of Rell T7X subs for £800, less then half price, do i need them, and do i want them, i know they bring more to the party than base, but do i want my room to look like a hifi showroom, plus i will have to get them sprayed white to match my speakers, mike do i need them at this price, and will they make a quality difference , cheers andy will they improve my sound,
thanks andy

I have heard some very good things about BK Electronics (ex REL guys).
Their prices are very reasonable and they are relatively local to you (in Essex).
You should be able to get multiple subs without too much cost if you would like to experiment.

I am recent convert to the sub woofer club having recently added a JL Audio sub to my stereo setup.
It's amazing how much subs add to the overall presentation - just adds meat to the sound presentation.


.

Subs have pros and cons. They will improve your room SQ but you have to invest the time to understand how to do that. While many of us may have ideas on how to help you integrate them, you will be the judge and jury.

You can’t just plunk them down in your room next to your main speakers and be done. Some experimentation (time & patience) will be needed to get them to do their best on your room.

Originally Posted by Mike

Andy, the biggest misnomer is that people think subs are just for “bass”. The biggest effect of multiple subs is to even out room nodes. I have four giant B&W DB1D’s in a 14 x 20 room. NOT for bass, but because my room is so challenging with respect to bass nodes. Four subs even out the bass in my room. Two subs got me 90% of the way there, but four got me 100% of the way there. Would a different TYPE of speaker change things? Perhaps….but with a traditional speaker, this is what is needed in my room.


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Interesting. I have Avantgarde Duo XD speakers and wonder if you would advocate a couple of subs to deal with room nodes or to reinforce the bass.

If you thought your room has problems with acoustics, I wonder how you'd deal with mine - sketch below.

The acoustics when I moved in were apalling but, in my opinion, the addition of an area of carpeting, more soft furnishing and curtains (never closed) has had sufficient influence on the acoustics that subs are probably not required. Would you expect this room to be significantly improved with a pair or two of subs? And what subs would you recommend with AGs? Thanks. Peter

Plan - 112 Living Room.pdf
20210708_185716.jpg

It seems only one image can be attached to posts
Plan - 112 Living Room.pdf

Originally Posted by Smile

I know very little on room acoustics, but I don't understand how carpet and a sofa are going to affect sub level frequencies.
Appears your issue would be mid range voices getting smudged by reflection. Great room and view, btw.

Yes, when I first moved into this new-build there was an echo and other acoustic problems, but the carpets, etc have made a huge difference. With horn speakers, it seems that room problems are less emphasised than with other types. I had Martin Logan 13As here for a while and they performed poorly - because of the room's semi-circular shape and no rear wall behind them.

With the right choice of speaker type, careful setting up and the room treatment (by way of carpets, etc), I'm pretty happy that I don't needs subs. I'm not clever enough to take advantage of the XD software that may further improve sound quality. I'd like to find a local audio tuning expert who could help me with this. Unfortunately Jim Smith is thousands of miles away! Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

room treatment (by way of carpets, etc), I'm pretty happy that I don't needs subs

Echo and reflective issues, yes, the carpet and curtains may have helped some, but did absolutely nothing for the bass issues that room has.

And the short answer... YES, your room would definitely benefit from having several properly set up subwoofers. I'm 100% certain Jim Smith would agree with us.

Originally Posted by Mike

Andy, the biggest misnomer is that people think subs are just for “bass”. The biggest effect of multiple subs is to even out room nodes. I have four giant B&W DB1D’s in a 14 x 20 room. NOT for bass, but because my room is so challenging with respect to bass nodes. Four subs even out the bass in my room. Two subs got me 90% of the way there, but four got me 100% of the way there. Would a different TYPE of speaker change things? Perhaps….but with a traditional speaker, this is what is needed in my room.


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Agree 110%!

I preach this all the time to people. I'm glad you said it this time.

Originally Posted by nicoff

Your setting is beautiful. Assuming that you listen to digital, because of the geometry of the room and aesthetic considerations, you might want to explore DSP if you haven't already.

Ha! Along with subs, DSP room correction is something I work hard to avoid the need for.

My current amp has Dirac Live built in and previous ones have had RoomPerfect (Lyngdorf) and MARS (Micromega). In all cases, although the bass may be slightly flatter when viewed on a frequency plot, the problem has always been that top end sparkle is diminished. Now the fact that these DSPs only ADJUST the bass (Dirac is only sub 500Hz), how can this be? Answer (my theory, yet to be demolished) is related to the letters S and P in DSP - Signal and Processor. The less processing a signal is subjected to, the better it survives on its journey towards the speakers. With these full-range amps, the entire signal is subjected to the processor, even the top end. That's why I avoid DSP in full-range amps. Also the end result, though audibly “different”, never sounds "better". Best left to the AV guys or those with multiple speakers where manual setting up becomes increasingly a specialist job.

With my speakers (Avantgarde Duo XDs) and ones I tried a while back (Martin Logan 13As) their active bass amps have DSP built in, leaving the rest of the un-DSP'd signal to reach the speakers unmolested. Only the bass is processed. As I mentioned earlier, I've not really tried to apply this XD filter. It's not as simple as Dirac's auto-set option where taking microphone readings and clicking "store" get the correction filter squirted directly into the amp – job done. XD is a completely manual system where the starting base is a straight line, you take independent microphone readings with REW or similar and adjust the straight line to compensate for the measured inaccuracies. Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Ha! Along with subs, DSP room correction is something I work hard to avoid the need for.

Well that tells it all right there.

Even if you know your system/room would benefit from using subwoofers (and they would improve the system/room), you force yourself to refuse using them. No one can help you there...

And it doesn't matter how much DSP you throw at the bass section of your horns or Martin Logan's you had, those speakers are nowhere near in the right locations for any kind of proper bass reproduction.

Originally Posted by chops

Well that tells it all right there.
Even if you know your system/room would benefit from using subwoofers (and they would improve the system/room), you force yourself to refuse using them. No one can help you there...

And it doesn't matter how much DSP you through at the bass section of your horns or Martin Logan's you had, those speakers are nowhere near in the right locations for any kind of proper bass reproduction.

Please don't be so dismissive unless you have heard the system in my room. I wouldn't dream of thrashing your system or set up without having heard it.

The room is not a dedicated music room, it is my living room and speakers are placed in as good a spot as they can be in this odd-shaped room. There are no side walls or corners close by to spoil the sound, Panels wouldn't be happy in that position, hence the MLs were quickly ditched. However horns are much more room tolerant and, after considerable attention to furnishings, they now sound very good.

Of course I have tried DSP room correction systems and results have been less satisfactory than without a filter. I have no doubt that the XD DSP within the bass amps would improve the sound, but I've not yet spent enough time on this project. I'd prefer to get a specialist with Avantgarde expertise to visit and set up a good filter.

If I had your panel speakers in my room, I agree that they would sound pretty dire without DSP and a bunch of subs, and judging from my ML experiments, they'd still seriously disappoint compared with the AGs. The horns are very happy in the locations they are placed. However, as always with horns, the sound behind the speakers (my dining and kitchen areas) is far from great and panels (or better still probably omnis) would be better when listening in these areas. However, as the sound at my listening position is so excellent, I can live with less good sound when behind the speakers.

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Please don't be so dismissive unless you have heard the system in my room. I wouldn't dream of thrashing your system or set up without having heard it.

I'm not thrashing anyone or their system. Like you, I wouldn't do that.

And yes, I have no doubt you're getting great sound with the horns in that room from about 100 Hz on up. My concern is the bass response in that room considering where the speakers are located and just the sheer size and shape of that room.

As you said, I haven't heard it, so I don't know for sure.

I'm just going based off of past experiences in a large number of rooms and loudspeaker locations. Some of which I have gone to extremes just to see for myself what the outcome was. 99.5% of the time, they were not very favorable for good bass response.

Chops and Nicoff

> My concern is the bass response in that room considering where the speakers are located and just the sheer size and shape of that room.

The location of speakers was carefully considered and the place chosen means the speakers are well away from walls and corners. Also their location avoids the parabolic effect that the curved wall may have had on the speakers. The speakers neither face towards the parabolic focas point, nor directly away from it. These places would no doubt be disastrous - I'm sure you'd agree. If you have opened the plan of my listening room, may I sk where you would choose the place the sppeakers?

> I think that it is time for you to rethink your approach to subs and to DSP.
> In Post #3, Mike explains in good detail why he uses four (4!) subs to get the best out of his 2-channel system. My experience is similar to his.

I had been hoping for a follow up from Mike after seeing the plan of my room and his familiarity with Avantgarde speakers and the acoustic features of horn speakers. My own opionion is that my speakers are placed in the most suitable locations in this room and the nature of horns and the use of twin 12" drives in each of the AG's "subs" should probably obviate the need for more subs. No doubt they'd make a small difference, but I suspect it would be far from economically worthwhile.

But thanks for your views. Peter

Originally Posted by Hear Here

Chops and Nicoff

> My concern is the bass response in that room considering where the speakers are located and just the sheer size and shape of that room.

The location of speakers was carefully considered and the place chosen means the speakers are well away from walls and corners. Also their location avoids the parabolic effect that the curved wall may have had on the speakers. The speakers neither face towards the parabolic focas point, nor directly away from it. These places would no doubt be disastrous - I'm sure you'd agree. If you have opened the plan of my listening room, may I sk where you would choose the place the sppeakers?

Again, I did not say anything about the location of the speakers. Like I said in my last post, I'm sure you're getting great sound in those locations and your listening seat as far as stereo imaging and staging is concerned. So with that said, I never suggested that you move the speakers elsewhere.

What I have said, a couple of times now, is that throwing a bunch of DSP at the speakers for the BASS only, DSP isn't going to help much in your room.

If that were my room, I would a couple of small-ish subs like REL, and place them nearfield. Locations such as along side or right behind your listening position.

Originally Posted by nicoff

Sounds as if you do not follow what Mike said in his post about subs. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you sure cannot make it drink.

If I was a horse and taken to water, I'd want to make my own decision as to whether to drink or not. Are you one who blindly goes along with what you’re told?

On the Mike question (and I'd love him to comment here), what he said in post #3 may apply to systems based on most speakers, but I can't see that his own Main Listening Room (that features Avantgarde Mezzo XD) uses any external subs.

Perhaps Mike's speakers, in common with my very similar ones, can be set up in such a way that subs don't need to be added to the room – his room or my room. The more speakers involved in a system, the more difficult it is to set them up properly, DSP or not.

Mike invited the highly respected Jim Smith to spend many hours setting up his Avantgardes and Mike's long and very informative description on this forum, made no mention of subs as far as I could see, nor DSP apart from what's in the bass amps of the speakers.

Mike’s Profile reads:
Main Listening Room: Avantgarde Duo Mezzo XD, Lampizator Big 7, Lumin U1, Berkeley Audio Design Alpha Reference DAC, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, Triode Corporation of Japan TRX-M300 monos, Pass XS150 dual chassis monos, Pass XS Preamp, Pass XS Phono, Living Voice OBX-RW, Air Tight ATM-3 monos, Air Tight ATC-2 Preamp, Air Tight ATE-2 Phonostage, Air Tight ATH-2REF SUT, VAC Renaissance preamp (modified), Kronos Pro with ZYX Universe Premium Cartridge, Technics 1500 R2R (modified by Jeff Jacobs), Lumin S1 Network Music Player, T+A PDP3000HV, Aurender N10, full Siltech loom including Royal Signature Prince Speaker Cables, Phono cable and AES/EBU, Siltech Classic Series IC's and PC's.

I can't see any subs there, though I'm certainly not sure amongst that huge number of other items! Perhaps there's no room left in his listening room for 4 big subs! More likely (I suspect and hope), Mike is happy with his excellent Avantgarde speakers without sub support. He seems to have carefully chosen speakers that offer the excitement of a live performance without muddying the waters with subs or DSP. If so, well done Mike – you’re the expert.

I my experience with rooms with lots of windows: I have found that windows affect "in a problematic way" the upper mids and highs ten times more than the bass. The lower the frequency the less the glass holds the bass in the room and it mostly just flows through the windows where the upper mids and highs reflect and cause problems. Because of this - windows don't really cause bass humps and suck outs. You basically hear whatever is coming out of the speaker. Since speakers are designed for more normal rooms this still can cause some problems but it does make speaker placement a lot easier. Some dampening for the highs has always been needed.

In your case with all those windows, I could see wanting subs to actually add to the bass so you can energize the room with bass. This is the same for PA sound reinforcement in a room verses the same system outdoors.

FYI - I do use subs along with my Duo Mezzo's. Avant Garden DSP makes it fairly easy to add a low bass sub and have it integrate.

In your room I would want to try MBL's. My gut says they would sound dang good in there.

Apologies for not responding sooner. It’s been a quite crazy since the Florida show and all the planning now for our three rooms at Axpona. 8 pairs of Clarisys sold and Block systems has also kept us busy!

Anyway, to answer your question: with the Duo Mezzo XD’s bass essentially being subs with sophisticated DSP, I did not need or want any additional subs. I was able to EQ out the bass nodes out of my room due to the sophistication of the bass of the Duo Mezzo XD’s.

When I switched to the MBL’s, I was still evaluating and playing with positioning when MBL introduced me to a customer ready to buy my entire MBL setup since she didn’t want to wait 14 months for a new one.

If I make a change again, would I want subs? Depends on the speaker design and how they play in my room. If it’s Duo GT’s? Likely not. If it’s Clarisys, likely not as I fear the subs couldn’t keep up with the fast ribbons and I don’t want to mix and match driver types. If it’s something else like S3’s or 802D4’s, then most likely.

With most traditional cone & dome speakers, I feel subs will be a big benefit in my system.

As for subs with AG’s, it just depends on the system and room. My friend Charlie has Trio XD’s and felt multiple pairs of the 231’s (traditional subs, not bass horns) scattered around his room were far more effective than a big stack of bass horns.


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Originally Posted by Mike

Apologies for not responding sooner. It’s been a quite crazy since the Florida show and all the planning now for our three rooms at Axpona. 8 pairs of Clarisys sold and Block systems has also kept us busy!

Anyway, to answer your question: with the Duo Mezzo XD’s bass essentially being subs with sophisticated DSP, I did not need or want any additional subs. I was able to EQ out the bass nodes out of my room due to the sophistication of the bass of the Duo Mezzo XD’s.

When I switched to the MBL’s, I was still evaluating and playing with positioning when MBL introduced me to a customer ready to buy my entire MBL setup since she didn’t want to wait 14 months for a new one.

If I make a change again, would I want subs? Depends on the speaker design and how they play in my room. If it’s Duo GT’s? Likely not. If it’s Clarisys, likely not as I fear the subs couldn’t keep up with the fast ribbons and I don’t want to mix and match driver types. If it’s something else like S3’s or 802D4’s, then most likely.

With most traditional cone & dome speakers, I feel subs will be a big benefit in my system.

As for subs with AG’s, it just depends on the system and room. My friend Charlie has Trio XD’s and felt multiple pairs of the 231’s (traditional subs, not bass horns) scattered around his room were far more effective than a big stack of bass horns.


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Thanks you Mike for your constructive and learned advice - much appreciated. We are on the same wavelength regarding Avantgarde's large speakers and their need (or not) for additional subs. You have had the benefit of Jim Smith helping to fine tune your system - I'm envious as I can't ask Jim to jump on a plane and cross the Atlantic to help with mine! I've not heard of any such UK based expert, but I'm hoping some fellow AG owner may step forward to help, although I'm very pleased with the sound I'm presently hearing. Peter

Originally Posted by the professor

In your room I would want to try MBL's. My gut says they would sound dang good in there.

Jock - Many thanks for your observations and good to hear from a fellow AG user. You're absolutely right that in theory MBL or other first-class omnis should be the ideal type of speaker for my room, but I recently visited dealers for both MBL and German Physics. Both offer first class omnis and the showroom demos were educational in 2 ways. Yes, their sweet spot is vast compared with AG's (or any horns for that matter), but they had one real disadvantage compared with the AGs. Their imaging was nowhere near as accurate and this feature is one I particularly wouldn't want to lose. To be able to listen to music, eyes closed, and to point unambiguously at each instrument or singer (as one often can at live performances) is something I'd not want to lose, or even have significantly diminished.

I've been playing with the idea of getting a couple of German Physics' DDD units (PQS-100) and devise a system whereby the AG's subs are used to provide bass for either the AG's horns as normal, or (if I'm spending time in areas behind the speakers), the DDDs to provide the rest. The difference in sensitivity is huge so it's not a simple exercise - but might be fun to work on! Peter

Where the OP?

Originally Posted by crwilli

Where the OP?

Most likely having some tea.

Originally Posted by Mike

I was able to EQ out the bass nodes out of my room due to the sophistication of the bass of the Duo Mezzo XD’s.

Mike, were these room modes (bass nodes) peaks or nulls?

I'm asking because from my own experiences over the years, the only way to solve (or reduce) nulls is to physically move the subwoofer(s) to help flatten out or eliminate that null (or somehow change the dimensions of the room). Adding DSP/EQ to reduce a null on its own will not work and in fact makes things worse, not to mention adding a lot more stress to the amp/driver attempting to do so.

If the bass nodes that you were able to "EQ out of your room" were peaks, that makes a lot more sense.

Originally Posted by chops

Mike, were these room modes (bass nodes) peaks or nulls?

I'm asking because from my own experiences over the years, the only way to solve (or reduce) nulls is to physically move the subwoofer(s) to help flatten out or eliminate that null (or somehow change the dimensions of the room). Adding DSP/EQ to reduce a null on its own will not work and in fact makes things worse, not to mention adding a lot more stress to the amp/driver attempting to do so.

If the bass nodes that you were able to "EQ out of your room" were peaks, that makes a lot more sense.

Peaks. 73hz was the worst.


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