Esoteric DAC type, DSD or PCM?

pietpara

pietpara

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Hi, not being an expert at DAC designs, I have a question.
As usually DACs are either of the PCM type or the DSD type, I was wondering what the fundamental design of the DAC is in Esoteric's Master Sound Discrete DACs. Their website's description makes you think that it's both, but I thought that the design principles of PCM or DSD DACs are fundamentally different.

Does anyone know what the true nature of these DACs is?

Thanks
 
It’s both, but their strength is DSD (SACD). They still dominate by a country mile for SACD (which is DSD on a disc).

In my opinion….

Best DAC’s for DSD:

- Esoteric
- Lampizator
- Meitner/EMM (not my kind of sound, but they execute it well)
- Playback Designs (I have a client with one and the brightness of this dac is driving him crazy. He keeps trying cables, anything to make it work. He came from MSB and will be going back.)

Best DAC’s for PCM:

- MSB
- Aqua
- Berkeley

If you have a 1000+ DSD albums/SACD’s, then focus on a DSD DAC. If you have mostly PCM, then focus on a PCM strength DAC.

If I was pinned down to pick my top ones for each format:

PCM - MSB - by a mile. Nobody has nailed PCM better. Nobody.
DSD - Lampizator. Sorry, but no one does DSD better. It’s how they made their name, and DSD on the Horizon is haunting.
BOTH formats well - Esoteric (I would buy a K-01XD SE and an Aurender N20. Done. The ultimate digital hub.)


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Thanks Mike

I fully agree... the Esoteric is fabulous on SACD. Listened to it since it was TEAC 😀

A friend of mine switched to APL after many years and I must admit that it is also fantastic. Not sure if APL is in the USA already.

I own a K03xd now and am extremely happy.
Whence also my interest in knowing more technical details about its dac. From what you say it sounds like there are indeed 2 dacs inside, one for PCM and one for DSD, since I believe a single dac cannot do both (leaving aside that inside the DAC PCM is converted to DSD, or vice versa, before conversion to analogue. Its exactly that what I'd like to confirm about the Discrete Master Sound DAC from Esoteric... is there a conversion taking place?
I know that the Esoteric can convert PCM to DSD with a setting, not the reverse, so does that tell us something?

Anyway, regarding MSB, indeed I hear greatest things. Another friend of mine soon receives the Select so I can enjoy auditioning 😉.
That friend als has the Lampizator Horizon which is indeed astonishing. Love it!

Cheers
 
Mike said:
It’s both, but their strength is DSD (SACD). They still dominate by a country mile for SACD (which is DSD on a disc).

In my opinion….

.......................

If I was pinned down to pick my top ones for each format:

PCM - MSB - by a mile. Nobody has nailed PCM better. Nobody.
DSD - Lampizator. Sorry, but no one does DSD better. It’s how they made their name, and DSD on the Horizon is haunting.
BOTH formats well - Esoteric (I would buy a K-01XD SE and an Aurender N20. Done. The ultimate digital hub.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...

Finally got to hear an Esoteric "SE" version of the Master Sound Discrete DAC in the Amphion Room 1230 at AXPONA 2024.

One of my favorite rooms at the show used an Esoteric N-01XD SE network DAC with F-02 integrated amplifier, to drive the Amphion Krypton 3X speaker. I can't quantify exactly what portion to attribute to the N-01XD SE but this simple rig produced wonderfully transparent, beautifully rendered sound. I'm hoping the K-01XD SE/Aurender N20 combo would be at least as good.
 
pietpara said:
...As usually DACs are either of the PCM type or the DSD type, I was wondering what the fundamental design of the DAC is in Esoteric's Master Sound Discrete DACs...
Click to expand...

They are sigma-delta modulator DAC's with flow pass filter. PCM signals are processed as PCM, or PCM signals can be converted to DSD before being converted from digital to analog. Esoteric also give you the choice of upconverting PCM signals before converting from digital to analog. This is not something you need to bother yourself with too much.
 
pietpara said:
...From what you say it sounds like there are indeed 2 dacs inside, one for PCM and one for DSD..
Click to expand...

No. There is only one DAC. It accepts PCM or DSD signals. PCM upconversion, and PCM to DSD conversion happens in a FPGA prior to the DAC. The DAC is just a software algorithm in an FPGA. So there are two FPGA's one of which is dedicated to the digital to analog conversion.
 
mxk116 said:
...One of my favorite rooms at the show used an Esoteric N-01XD SE network DAC....
Click to expand...

The Esoteric rep from Japan was at the show. He said they were thinking about building a Grandioso level network transport in a way which leads you to believe they were actually doing it. If you think N-01XD SE sounds good (which is based on a Lumin U1), wait until you hear a Grandioso level network streamer.
 
Thanks! So, do I understand correctly that a sigma-delta dac can deal with 1 bit (high frequency) and multi bit encoding (low frequency)?
I always thought these are too different to be able to do in a single dac architecture.
 
brodricj said:
No. There is only one DAC. It accepts PCM or DSD signals. PCM upconversion, and PCM to DSD conversion happens in a FPGA prior to the DAC. The DAC is just a software algorithm in an FPGA. So there are two FPGA's one of which is dedicated to the digital to analog conversion.
Click to expand...
Interesting.
I didn't know that an FPGA could also output analog signal.
 
I do not believe that they do. They are on the Master Sound Discrete DAC board for key digital signal processing functions (a primary role of an FPGA) in several areas, but they are not "the DAC" all by themselves. In the circuit diagram for the D-01XSE (the D-01X is very similar in this regard, as are the MSDDAC boards for the N-01X, etc ), the roles of the FPGA(s) can be seen:
abb504236d23eb1314bcb177e086f779.jpg


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An FPGA is a signal processor. What it actually does in a particular application depends on how it's programmed. brodericj's description in post #6 is consistent with SCAudiophile's post #16 block diagram showing two FPGAs, each with a different function.
 
GSOphile said:
An FPGA is a signal processor. What it actually does in a particular application depends on how it's programmed. brodericj's description in post #6 is consistent with SCAudiophile's post #16 block diagram showing two FPGAs, each with a different function.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I got confused by the sentence that "the DAC is just a SW algorithm on an FPGA". The actual conversion to analogue still happens outside the FPGA in the discrete component part... the unique part of the Esoteric (not being a standard chip).
 
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