Computer Audio is Dead and Streaming has killed it

Mike

Mike

Audioshark
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
30,269
Location
Sarasota, FL
https://twitteringmachines.com/computer-audio-is-dead-and-streaming-has-killed-it/

For the record, I don’t agree that streaming sounds as good as CD/SACD or even rips/downloads, and I have gone to great lengths and continue to go to great lengths to optimize my network.

My personal ranking is:

CD/SACD from a great Transport to the same DAC - 10/10
CD/SACD rip or high res download - 9/10
High res streaming on Qobuz or Tidal - 8/10
Redbook streaming with Qobuz - 7.5/10
Redbook Streaming with Tidal - 7/10
 
Mike said:
https://twitteringmachines.com/computer-audio-is-dead-and-streaming-has-killed-it/

For the record, I don’t agree that streaming sounds as good as CD/SACD or even rips/downloads, and I have gone to great lengths and continue to go to great lengths to optimize my network.

My personal ranking is:

CD/SACD from a great Transport to the same DAC - 10/10
CD/SACD rip or high res download - 9/10
High res streaming on Qobuz or Tidal - 8/10
Redbook streaming with Qobuz - 7.5/10
Redbook Streaming with Tidal - 7/10
Click to expand...

So, are you saying physical media still wins ? In terms of pure audio quality? In your personal experience ?

Btw, I agree with the article and streaming has more of path forward road map compared to computer audio (local storage).

Think of what Roon could do if they offer a cloud option? This has to be in their roadmap.

For most people a simple streamer product like a Lumin is going to be the path forward.

Plug and Play.
 
mdp632 said:
So, are you saying physical media still wins ? In terms of pure audio quality? In your personal experience ?

Btw, I agree with the article and streaming has more of path forward road map the computer audio (local storage).

Think of what Roon could do if they offer a cloud option? This has to be in their roadmap.

For most people a simple streamer product like a Lumin is going to be the path forward.

Plug and Play.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
 
Mike said:
Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
Click to expand...

Wow. Then myself and probably I think the two other people here that still spin CDs agree with you :-)
 
Mike said:
Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
Click to expand...

I do agree Mike. CD is superior to streaming. CD is a well developed stabile media platform that has been around for a long time. Computers are not optimized for audio. Streamers are more ideal but they do share similar issues. Another thing is different formats (No loss, DSD, MQA, you name it). That being said streaming has been heavily improved compared to what it was just a few years ago. Streaming providers have stepped up and manufactures have stepped up. Who knows.. Maybe CD's won't be a thing in 15 years, but as it is for now streaming still has a long way to go.
 
I cannot tell a difference between physical CDs, or playing the same ripped CDs from a computer, or Tidal.

But... I do prefer SACDs to all of those above.

Now... if I take my ripped CDs or Tidal streams and upsample and convert them to DSD512... Then I like those better than anything else (including SACD which is basically DSD64).

So I no longer care about buying physical CDs or SACDs (or MQA for that matter). The upsampled, converted DSD512 versions sound better to me.

EmiLiuZ said:
...
Maybe CD's won't be a thing in 15 years, but as it is for now streaming still has a long way to go.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, CDs are already dead. Streaming won.
 
Mike said:
Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
Click to expand...

Quote from Rick Fryer of Spectral back in 2016

Why a CD player, you may wonder, in the age of Tidal, Pono, and the "Cloud"?
"Just as vinyl and turntables are supposed to be antique and obsolete, we know they are not," Fryer explained during his two-hour presentation. "If you know what is considered obsolete in digital—which is the compact disc—you have the option to rip it or download it. But I submit that this is the ultimate form in how you play a 44.1 recording. If you want to hear the best possible performance from a musical medium you go to its native format and [for digital] recordings that is compact disc and 44.1. We can show you why playing [compact discs] in a physical player and the physical medium will outperform any file or download."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content...ew-yorks-innovative-audio#VgvrqKasIm8XiOkB.99fa

Fast forward 3 years later and that still holds true.
 
I think playing a physical disc is going to continue to be superior to streaming as long as all the steps required to optimize streaming are still being developed and refined.
 
mdp632 said:
Quote from Rick Fryer of Spectral back in 2016

...
But I submit that this is the ultimate form in how you play a 44.1 recording. If you want to hear the best possible performance from a musical medium you go to its native format and [for digital] recordings that is compact disc and 44.1. We can show you why playing [compact discs] in a physical player and the physical medium will outperform any file...
Click to expand...

Audio recording and mastering engineers will normally do a master digital recording at a higher sampling rate than 44.1 (i.e. 88.2, 96, 176.4 or 192 kHz) and then they do any editing or mixing at that same higher frequency. Then the file is downsampled to meet the CD requirement of 44.1 khz. So the native format of most digitally recorded music is NOT what is contained in the CDs.
 
Honestly, with my current digital streaming set-up, Qobuz hi-res, I can't tell the difference between streaming and spinning CD's any longer. The one and only physical media I can still hear the difference, far better, is vinyl.
 
Mike said:
For the record, I don’t agree that streaming sounds as good as CD/SACD or even rips/downloads, and I have gone to great lengths and continue to go to great lengths to optimize my network.

My personal ranking is:

CD/SACD from a great Transport to the same DAC - 10/10
CD/SACD rip or high res download - 9/10
High res streaming on Qobuz or Tidal - 8/10
Redbook streaming with Qobuz - 7.5/10
Redbook Streaming with Tidal - 7/10
Click to expand...

Great to hear given that you have explored the issue thoroughly, and doesn't surprise me from my experience, which admittedly is more limited.

Per the article maybe it's good that I skipped the complicated "Computer Audio" stuff. If I want more music than the CDs I have, I can always stream. But I do that anyway, just not on my hi-fi. I listen to YouTube on a $30 headphone from my computer.
 
mdp632 said:
Wow. Then myself and probably I think the two other people here that still spin CDs agree with you :-)
Click to expand...

Make that "three other people". I absolutely agree with Mike and mdp632 that spinning media still rules over the other options in our system (at least in our travels) after trying a variety of options.
 
attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • Mark Twain death quote.jpg
    Mark Twain death quote.jpg
    42.3 KB · Views: 174
CDs might sound better than streaming, but certainly not better than if ripped and played through a decent file player (not a computer). Just the elimination of CD induced jitter is enough. Plus there is no way a CD can sound better than a High-Res download that was mastered right from the start as High-Res. A CD maxes out at 44/16 and is at the entrance of good sound, with High-Res downloads higher up the audio ladder.
 
My own personal opinion and I know I’ll get some heat this one..

But , I don’t think the problem was ever with the compact disc physical media itself.

It just took 30 plus years for the playback equipment technology to mature.

Plus less variables with physical media mean less chance for distortion.

So , we’ve spent countless time and effort to remove distortion from our systems to only ruin it with computer networks , usb

That’s my take on it.

So, Mike are you getting or do you have already have the msb ref transport ?
 
mdp632 said:
My own personal opinion and I know I’ll get some heat this one..

But , I don’t think the problem was ever with the compact disc physical media itself.

It just took 30 plus years for the playback equipment technology to mature.

Plus less variables with physical media mean less chance for distortion.

So , we’ve spent countless time and effort to remove distortion from our systems to only ruin it with computer networks , usb

That’s my take on it.

So, Mike are you getting or do you have already have the msb ref transport ?
Click to expand...

I guess I'll get some heat on this one too -- for agreeing with you!
 
BlueFox said:
CDs might sound better than streaming, but certainly not better than if ripped and played through a decent file player (not a computer). Just the elimination of CD induced jitter is enough.
Click to expand...

The old jitter argument. Theoretically, yes. Practically, it's more complicated since computers/ file players introduce electronic noise. And perhaps that is just one of the problems.

The argument that computer audio is better because it eliminates jitter reminds me of "Perfect Sound Forever". Remember that one? CD was supposed to be better than LP on technical grounds. But it took more than 30 years to get to something starting to resemble "Perfect Sound Forever" (not saying that we're there yet). There were all kinds of practical implementation issues that soiled the theoretical perfection of CD for a long time. Similar situation with the theoretical perfection of computer audio.
 
Mike said:
Yes, I am. There is no doubt. I’ve done multiple tests across several systems and others who have also heard the demos, agree.

Like comparing a fine dining experience to the local buffet restaurant, some are willing to forgo ultimate quality for a seemingly unlimited selection and variety at a low cost.
Click to expand...

Mike.......Same conclusion with my systems. I have made direct comparisons with CD's to playback from multiple music servers, as well as with both Tidal and Qobuz streaming. I concur with your results. It is all good but when I want to hear the absolute best my systems can deliver I spin discs.
 
I disagree with Mike's order and rating but at this point for me any differences aren't worth even two minutes of comparison and evaluation.

The bottom line is physical media and downloads may not be dead but they will soon become a quaint reminders of phases in this hobby. Just who do you think is going to stock and sell physical media? It is easy to look back at CD titles previously sold by Amazon that are now only available as downloads. Do you really think that records labels will continue to maintain manufacturing capacity when CD sales dropped under $1 billion for the first time since 1986. It is much cheaper for these companies to provide data for streaming. Per the RIAA: “Revenues from streaming music platforms grew 30% year-over-year to reach $7.4 billion, contributing 75% of total revenues for 2018, and accounting for virtually all the revenue growth for the year.”

In the near future CD's will take its place along side vinyl was as a niche market for those willing (or enjoying) all of the associated issues with that media for whatever perceived sonic benefits they seek. I am sure there are those that cannot find replacements for the 78 shellacs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top