Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

Status
Not open for further replies.
jmusica

jmusica

New member
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
Messages
649
Location
Tampa
Was thinking about this the other day then was reading through the "lossy/lossless" thread here. Some comments by AJ made me give this more thought.

Look, I'm no audio engineer, and there are many people who could provide scientific evidence or probably just way better anecdotal evidence (guys like AJ, Mike, etc) to either refute or support what I'm proposing. However I think the time's come that the topic gets some discussion, some good old fashioned (like vinyl ; ) heated debate.

For as long as I've been involved in this hobby, vinyl has held sway as the benchmark to which everything should aspire, ie. digital. And in the early days, with CDs basically sucking for a variety of reasons, this made a lot of sense.

Today however, with better knowledge of digital music sourcing (mastering etc), production (flac, wav, dsd, hi-res) and re-production (better digital gear, DACs etc), my theory is that vinyl is no longer king of the hill. That the best digital systems produce better sound/experience at home than can the best vinyl. Just a theory, since I've heard neither. However, I've heard what I guess is very good vinyl/analog, and very good digital, and I'd take digital. I hear more detail, superior special queues, more clarity, PRAT, whatever.... it just sounds better to me. Not to mention, flac files don't wear down over time.

I hope this ends up being somewhat controversial; I think it's time to change this paradigm. Take your seat at the back of the bus vinyl.
 
jmusica said:
Today however, with better knowledge of digital music sourcing (mastering etc), production (flac, wav, dsd, hi-res) and re-production (better digital gear, DACs etc), my theory is that vinyl is no longer king of the hill. That the best digital systems produce better sound/experience at home than can the best vinyl. Just a theory, since I've heard neither. However, I've heard what I guess is very good vinyl/analog, and very good digital, and I'd take digital. I hear more detail, superior special queues, more clarity, PRAT, whatever.... it just sounds better to me. Not to mention, flac files don't wear down over time.
Click to expand...

It's in the presentation and feel of the music that vinyl ruled and many probably feel it still does.

Digital has been closing the gap in that regard. Personally I could never get over the shortcomings of vinyl so I put up with digital's. My latest digital HW acquisitions have improved digital so much for me I'm selling my vinyl rig.
 
In many ways Digital is the new benchmark. But primarily because it's what 99% of people have and use. That is not to say that tape and vinyl aren't better sounding. A benchmark is there to compare to better or worse.
 
Tape is king. After that it's a toss-up between vinyl and digital. I have also become of the belief that in order to have the very best vinyl you must have some of the best digital. When you have excellent digital such as I believe I have, you are very quickly shown the shortcomings in your vinyl setup. It becomes very easy to hear any bloat congestion or lack of frequency extension in your vinyl set up when you play the same songs compared against your digital.

They also just voice a little different. That is really it. They are both extremely Musical and engaging to listen to. Last night I was spinning some Jimmy Buffett. Well actually I should say I was listening to it from my internal drive on my server. However I had been using my record player and listening to Jimmy Buffett albums which was still spinning and I thought was actually playing. I was thinking to myself, my God this is some of the best audio I've ever heard in my life. This is after just returning from Miami and listening to Boulder, Wilson raidho, OMA Etc. Very fine multi hundred-thousand-dollar systems. In my opinion, mine was more musically engaging and enjoyable listen to. It did not have the scale and size of the Boulder Wilson combo but it was more musical. Anyhow I was getting ready to get up and lift the needle after Margaritaville when I realized the needle was up and I was only listening to my digitally stored red book version.

I used to try and say my digital was better than my vinyl. I now say my digital force me to up the performance of my vinyl. The biggest shortcoming of vinyl is the source albums. But this can also be a shortcoming of digital. All-in-all I find my digital has a little more punch, Clarity, black backgrounds. But source does matter. I had been listening to an old Beethoven record I had. It was like some violin Concerto in D. It has been sounding superb on my record player. I thought how does it compare against my digital. I looked around on Tidal,but could not find the exact album. The exact album as in the same Symphony composer recording studio, you know what I mean. This was just the same song from a completely different album. My record ate that digital recording up. Of course this is one of the only times that has happened. If I take an album such as Cat Stevens, Pink Martini, Tony Bennett, Pink Floyd, and play it against my digital, I find the digital to generally be more satisfying. It plays with more gripping Authority out of my system.

My system may be tuned slightly soft due to its makeup. It consists of 135 watt Altec Lansing 1570b monoblock amplifiers that have been completely rebuilt by Tom to Tutay. I have a first sound Mark 3s preamp by Emmanuel go. My digital side is a Mojo audio server which I have hot rodded myself with software updates. I use an RT audio Ultra USB Orpheus ex DAC. On the analog side I build a turntable based upon the Vertere SG1 tonearm. I use a Denon cartridge in an aluminum head shell with a soundsmith sapphire cantilever and line contact diamond. My phoneo stage is an Allnic H1201. I have pure audio Trio 10 speakers. I have done extensive mods to the speakers. They have much higher quality capacitors chokes and speaker wire lacing. Actually all my gear is somewhat tweet. I buy the components and spend a lot of time making small adjustments to extract the most from them.

I think I have a pretty darn nice sounding system. So to summarize, in short my digital is not necessarily better than my analog, it's just different.
 
Finding vinyl recordings is an art. If you get the right vinyl recordings and performances vinyl impossible to beat. I am not into vinyl yet btw, would like to get into it but cost of entry is high.
 
Here+We+Go+Again+Services+banner.jpg
 
It’s hard for me to consider what is best. For me tape or vinyl transfers to dsd sound best in digital so where does that leave me in this lol.
Some new titles have analog mixing stations or some form of analog added to the sound. This leads me to my own conclusion pure digital is not best for me. Maybe it’s my age as I grew up in analog. I think all mediums have pros and cons and in any given system one may be best
having said this. For me digital is simple and almost endless sources of music content for this reason I use it alone.
 
Just use the one you prefer.

And stay far away from any "trust your ears" tests of digital vs analog (like the aforementioned TT>dual phonopre>ADC), unless you have a good sense of humor. ;)
 
All sources have limitations. I have firmly bumped my head with vinyl. I just can't get it to sound anywhere near as good as my digital. Go to Audionirvana and they would pee all over themselves reading that. However, many there have spent more on one phono cartridge than I did on my whole setup, about $10k.

I heard a $20k Clear Audio table with a $12k optical cartridge. It was beating the $90 digital chain. I think my digital is slightly different than the $90k system and would have been more a toss up to the Clear Audio. Some digital goes for to much dynamics and gets grit in the sound. That was what I was hearing, grit in the digital vs the vinyl.

No matter the system, I don't see cables, software medium making the system, I see it as breaking the system. You need the whole correct. Mistakes take away.

In short, I am hearing $10k digital wiping the floor on a $10k vinyl setup. The vinyl might have a little more liquid midrange, but I don't see that as better. I like to hear into the music, not through the music. I like clean, clear, accurate, extended, dynamic and well timed music. I can't get my analog to surpass my digital in any of these area.

I keep my analog for 2 reason. 1 Jazz and classical records not available on digital. 2 Guest want to believe vinyl is king and hear it played. Its tactile. Everyone can touch it, select and hold records. Bring records to play etc.

In the end, digital plays better than records In My System. Even in a multi thousand $ system I was treated to hearing, the vinyl sound floor kept coming through and literally caused me to plug my ears as it reacted to the rest of the system. Digital did not do that. The tape was huge sounding, also amazed me. First time I ever heard it so I did not know what to listen for.
 
I will not go into what sounds better, I can only say that I have sold all my analog equipment (they will pick it up in a week). Simply since I I bought my Lumin , almost did not use the vinyl.
 
I also won’t get into the sound, but the numbers don’t lie. I sell more than >30 times more digital related products (DAC, streamers, CD players, etc.) than analog related products (carts, tables, arms, RCM’s).

From another perspective, for every one $20,000 turntable, I sell 8 $20,000 CD players.

I’ve tried to understand the “why”. My customers tell me overwhelmingly that vinyl is too much tweaky “sh!t”, they aren’t getting up to change the record every two songs (blaming this on an abundance of 45rpm releases) and once they pour their drink of choice, they just want to relax.

Digital manufacturers today have really started to figure out how to produce great sound. The advancements in the past 5-10 years have been huge and only getting better. They are paying much closer attention to the analog output stage, clocking, power, etc.

Also, Tidal. Millions and millions of albums.

My beef has been recently, too many $40-$50 pressings that are warped, noisy, etc.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Kingrex said:
All sources have limitations. I have firmly bumped my head with vinyl. I just can't get it to sound anywhere near as good as my digital. Go to Audionirvana and they would pee all over themselves reading that...
Click to expand...

That's not an entirely accurate portrayal of what went down. Innuendo aside, your posts were more like: why can't we (vinylphiles) hear things the way you do or why are some people are so adamant about preferring one medium (vinyl) over all others. Rex, we all hear differently. I derive a closer emotional response to one medium over the other--is that not a good enough answer? The $1 mil system you're referring to is Mike Lavignes (?) I haven't heard his rig but I would imagine his vinyl front end is far from being sub-par. Like I said before you answered your own question and reached a state of perfect happiness, 'nirvana' as it were:)
 
Interesting to observe that in 46 days since the original post there has been a scant 19 posts from 11 members on the dog-eared topic of vinyl versus digital. I interpret this unenthusiastic interest to indicate a general level of fatigue many audio enthusiasts experience about rehashing what amounts to a personal preference issue. I am not surprised by the low participation when discussing this topic. In my opinion, all that can be said has been said. Despite the original poster's encouragement for a heated debate, stirring this old rusty pot doesn't seem to generate much interest anymore.


ripvanwinkle.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top