Advices on Upgrading my Music Server/Streamer?

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Mystere

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This is my first post. Thanks for letting me join the community.

Looking for opinions/advices before upgrading my music server. I use JRiver to feed flac files to the DAC inside my Hegel H360. JRiver runs on a Windows10 microPC connected via USB to the H360. I control it with the JRemote2 Android app. I like JRiver. The issue is I am tired of the regular Windows update. I too often find the PC in a state that requires a reboot. I just want something stable that works 24/7 without having to connect to it to ensure it is up and running.

All I need is something to play my flac files which I extracted from my CD collection. For now, I am not interested in a streaming service like Tidal, Spotify, etc... I have a Synology NAS, but I prefer to host my files on a local drive. A good Android app is also a must.

One option is to purchase the JRiver Id: an Intel NUC PC running Linux and preloaded with JRiver. With Linux, no more operating system upgrade. I can live with JRiver updates. It is getting more and more stable. Cost: $400 (nice!)

Another option could be to purchase a music server such as the Lumin U1 Mini ($2,000) or the Aurender N100H ($2,700). They do more than what I need, but they would completely eliminate the instability due to the software updates (and look good in my living room!). Although all these products feed the DAC with 1s and 0s via a bit-perfect output, a lot of people say they have an impact on the quality of the sound produced by the DAC. I have an IT background, so I find that hard to believe, but I remain open.

Given the extra costs of the Lumin U1 / Aurender N100H option, are there other advantages of buying products like these instead of the JRiver Id?

Thanks in advance,
 
IdNUC seems to release an update every several months, which is good because Linux machines need regular updates too. Since the IdNUC is likely to be running a minimal set of software, the frequency and urgency of any updates will be reduced. But I probably wouldn't put it as far down the scale as a specialized OS or system, which is where Lumin would sit.

The second question would be how much interruption an update will cause. Reading through the JRiver IdNUC forum is probably the best way to get some insight into that. Lumin firmware updates are very much like traditional CE updates, manually initiated and skippable. So when you see the prompt to update you can click yes and then just wait a minute before it is back up and running like it was before.

It does sound like you want to avoid running a general purpose computer to access your music files. In which case utilizing your Synology NAS or the built-in hard disk of the Aurender sounds attractive. Synology releases OS and package updates regularly, but is very good at scheduling those at night and having everything restart automatically to minimize any possible interruption of service.
 
hi - welcome!

Mystere said:
...Although all these products feed the DAC with 1s and 0s via a bit-perfect output, a lot of people say they have an impact on the quality of the sound produced by the DAC. I have an IT background, so I find that hard to believe, but I remain open.
Click to expand...

in addition to the 0s and 1s, accumulated upstream electrical noise is also fed into the DAC which greatly affects sound quality. thus, anything you can do to minimize this noise is additive to SQ. that is why products such as lumin and aurender significantly outperform general purpose computers. these products are highly designed and engineered to remove this noise -- and, they all run a purpose built OS running only the minimum processes necessary which also reduces electrical noise.

if you are not specifically wanting jRiver, then it might be useful to look at roon for the software. it can be run on a variety of platforms... consumer computers, the roon nucleus server, purpose built servers, and others. it is reliable and rock solid. updates are infrequent and i have never had an issue with them.

since you have a background in IT, then if you are inclined the DIY route is something to explore. this provides the flexibility to design and build an upstream digital infrastructure that exactly meets your requirements and preferences. IMO and IME, it is possible to build a higher performing transport for 50% or less of the cost of something similar from an audio brand. after a lot of research and learning, this is the direction i ended up going. if interested, you can read a bout it here.

final thought here -- optical isolation (fiber networking) is dispositive on eliminating 100% of the electrical noise from an ethernet digital stream.
 
I would suggest the Lumin X1. This allows you to get rid the DAC, the cables between the DAC and amp, and the DAC power cord.
 
NekoAudio said:
IdNUC seems to release an update every several months, which is good because Linux machines need regular updates too. Since the IdNUC is likely to be running a minimal set of software, the frequency and urgency of any updates will be reduced. But I probably wouldn't put it as far down the scale as a specialized OS or system, which is where Lumin would sit.

The second question would be how much interruption an update will cause. Reading through the JRiver IdNUC forum is probably the best way to get some insight into that. Lumin firmware updates are very much like traditional CE updates, manually initiated and skippable. So when you see the prompt to update you can click yes and then just wait a minute before it is back up and running like it was before.

It does sound like you want to avoid running a general purpose computer to access your music files. In which case utilizing your Synology NAS or the built-in hard disk of the Aurender sounds attractive. Synology releases OS and package updates regularly, but is very good at scheduling those at night and having everything restart automatically to minimize any possible interruption of service.
Click to expand...

Quarterly updates is not a big deal. I can live with that. Good point on the NAS. Given I don't need to buy anything to test the NAS approach, I should give it a try. Thanks,
 
Many thanks aKnyght for your input and your post on your “trip up the digital stream”. Your contribution is very valuable to me.

This is the first time in 3-4 years I read a credible explanation of why noise on the digital side can affect the performance of a DAC. Essentially, you are saying noise produced upstream and carried along with the digital data, will impact the DAC, even if the 1s and 0s are delivered to the DAC without errors. So, most DACs do not isolate the digital stage electrically from the analog stage and let this noise pollute the analog output.

Therefore, removing this noise input will allow the DAC to deliver an analog sound to the best of its capacity. In this case, should I not simply focus on converting the electrical signal out of the streamer to optical before feeding the DAC? All I would need to add to any streamer I select (JRiver Id, Roon Nucleus, Lumin U1 Mini, Aurender, etc…) is a box to convert the output to optical? Anything upstream of this box would be a matter of whether I like the functionality and the user friendliness. Thoughts?
 
BlueFox said:
I would suggest the Lumin X1. This allows you to get rid the DAC, the cables between the DAC and amp, and the DAC power cord.
Click to expand...

Thanks but I prefer to keep using the H360 integrated DAC and then potentially upgrade to a stand alone DAC in a few years. The X1 looks like a nice piece of gear, but it costs way more than my H360.
 
Highly recommend Lumin U1 or Aurender N10. You can then upgrade the Hegel DAC later.
 
Mystere said:
...Therefore, removing this noise input will allow the DAC to deliver an analog sound to the best of its capacity. In this case, should I not simply focus on converting the electrical signal out of the streamer to optical before feeding the DAC? All I would need to add to any streamer I select (JRiver Id, Roon Nucleus, Lumin U1 Mini, Aurender, etc…) is a box to convert the output to optical? Anything upstream of this box would be a matter of whether I like the functionality and the user friendliness. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

the simple answer is yes...

in terms of electrical noise, the definitive solution is to run ethernet optical fiber directly into the DAC; thereby, eliminating ALL upstream electrical noise. however, there is only one DAC/streamer that i am aware of having this capability: the lumin x1 which has an SFP I/O port ...imo, this is a state-of-the-art component which anyone should be happy with but it comes at a commensurate price.

as you suggest, the next best thing would be to get fiber as close to the DAC as possible by using some type of fiber media converter (FMC). here the FMC is the last link in the upstream chain but is connected to the DAC by a copper ethernet cable. here all electrical noise upstream to the FMC is eliminated; however, one is left with any noise generated from the FMC and connecting copper ethernet cable.

an "audiophile" solution would be to use a quality consumer grade FMC such one from fs.com to make the conversion to light and then use the sonore opticalModule just before the DAC to make the conversion back to electrical. alternatively, one can simply use 2 consumer grade FMCs and, perhaps, use a linear power supply (LPS) for the DAC side FMC. LPSs are a whole other can of worms but i would start with a simple one from jameco before moving on to the expensive audiophile LPSs if necessary.

if your DAC has a USB but no ethernet input, as mine does, then something like the sonore opticalRendu might be something to look at in terms of getting fiber networking closer to the DAC.

if interested, i had started two other threads - here and here - on digital networking which might also be helpful.

enjoy !!!

______________________________

note: MSB also has an optical input capability. however, it is proprietary and based on USB rather than ethernet
 
Many DACs in recent years will isolate and reject/mitigate noise coming in on digital inputs, and some have shielding around the USB circuit. For example, while getting the Neko Audio D100 DAC ready for production, we tested with a computer sound card that was not grounded and therefore sending out huge amounts of noise. With transformer isolation and proper grounding we ensured that noise did not carry into the internal circuits.
 
aKnyght said:
the simple answer is yes...

in terms of electrical noise, the definitive solution is to run ethernet optical fiber directly into the DAC; thereby, eliminating ALL upstream electrical noise. however, there is only one DAC/streamer that i am aware of having this capability: the lumin x1 which has an SFP I/O port ...imo, this is a state-of-the-art component which anyone should be happy with but it comes at a commensurate price.

as you suggest, the next best thing would be to get fiber as close to the DAC as possible by using some type of fiber media converter (FMC). here the FMC is the last link in the upstream chain but is connected to the DAC by a copper ethernet cable. here all electrical noise upstream to the FMC is eliminated; however, one is left with any noise generated from the FMC and connecting copper ethernet cable.

an "audiophile" solution would be to use a quality consumer grade FMC such one from fs.com to make the conversion to light and then use the sonore opticalModule just before the DAC to make the conversion back to electrical. alternatively, one can simply use 2 consumer grade FMCs and, perhaps, use a linear power supply (LPS) for the DAC side FMC. LPSs are a whole other can of worms but i would start with a simple one from jameco before moving on to the expensive audiophile LPSs if necessary.

if your DAC has a USB but no ethernet input, as mine does, then something like the sonore opticalRendu might be something to look at in terms of getting fiber networking closer to the DAC.

if interested, i had started two other threads - here and here - on digital networking which might also be helpful.

enjoy !!!

______________________________

note: MSB also has an optical input capability. however, it is proprietary and based on USB rather than ethernet
Click to expand...

Nicely written and to note there is in line GigaFoil V4 optical filter - you do need a second cable, and cables do matter[emoji851]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Thanks for the detailed explanations. You do stand out in the crowd as a teacher of digital audio. Most people I have come across hear differences in sound and try to explain it as best they can, but definitely do not master the digital space at all. I am often left with the feeling vendors want to sell extremely expensive equipment to very gullible people. Billions of digital files are transferred from usb flash drives to computers and between computers across the world, every day, without a single bit missing (multiple re-transmits take place when required without anyone noticing), and audiophile people make it sound as if any small vibration in a cable (half joking here) will cause bits to drop out. It makes you wonder where the truth is and how you can find it. I understand better now.

I will go listen to a couple of different products in my price range that are equipped with a selection of interfaces, like the Lumin U1 Mini or the Innuos ZEN Mini, or ZEN Mk3. Once I have picked one, I will see if I want to further improve the connection to the DAC with some adaptors. I am not a very sophisticated audiophile, so I suspect I will not hear some of the subtleties that irritate many people. In the end, the value of a piece of gear is unique for every listener.

Many thanks!
 
Mystere said:
Thanks but I prefer to keep using the H360 integrated DAC and then potentially upgrade to a stand alone DAC in a few years. The X1 looks like a nice piece of gear, but it costs way more than my H360.
Click to expand...

I do recommend using our Lumin analog output products (e.g. T2) instead of U1 MINI for connection to Hegel. You get DSD512 support and Tidal MQA full decoding this way, instead of being limited to DSD128.

I have several confirmed reports from Hegel users this way they get improved SQ over the internal DAC of even newer Hegel, however good it is.

With the Lumin T2, you can do A/B comparison of our analog output vs the internal DAC of your H360 using the T2 USB audio output. If you get an even better USB DAC in the future, T2 can still act as a streamer front end for Tidal MQA Core decoding, Qobuz Hi-Res, Spotify Connect and AirPlay function.

Lumin can be controlled by JRiver, also supports JRiver gapless UPnP playback.

By the way, if you pick the competitor, MQA Core decoding is an extra purchase but it is built into Lumin for free. And the competitor does not support UPnP, so I don't think JRiver UPnP will work.
 
One other thing that many seem to down play in these discussions is that if you use optical you are now sending your signal through two additional converters. One to convert the signal to optical to be sent over the fiber and then another to convert it back. Basically converting the electrical signal into light and then converting it back into electrical signal on the receiving end. I would think these convertors are at least as important if not more so then the cable itself. In the past optical was discourage because of this and the coax connector was recommended for SPDIF connections.

I also find that a well designed USB does the trick for me??? If you have to go through these convertor stages are you really gaining anything? Especially when you can not use the highest resolution available with SPDIF versus USB. But again, my perspective is with locally stored files and feeding the signal straight from the server into the DAC.

I certainly understand that sending the signal on longer runs optical could be advantages, but for shorter runs like going from your spinner to your DAC I would think the coax connection would be preferred.. I would simply suggest to be very concerned on how these signals are being converted to light and then back again.
 
wklie said:
I do recommend using our Lumin analog output products (e.g. T2) instead of U1 MINI for connection to Hegel. You get DSD512 support and Tidal MQA full decoding this way, instead of being limited to DSD128.

I have several confirmed reports from Hegel users this way they get improved SQ over the internal DAC of even newer Hegel, however good it is.

With the Lumin T2, you can do A/B comparison of our analog output vs the internal DAC of your H360 using the T2 USB audio output. If you get an even better USB DAC in the future, T2 can still act as a streamer front end for Tidal MQA Core decoding, Qobuz Hi-Res, Spotify Connect and AirPlay function.

Lumin can be controlled by JRiver, also supports JRiver gapless UPnP playback.

By the way, if you pick the competitor, MQA Core decoding is an extra purchase but it is built into Lumin for free. And the competitor does not support UPnP, so I don't think JRiver UPnP will work.
Click to expand...

Excellent point about MQA. Thanks! As for the T2, the price is outside of my comfort zone these days. I read only good things about Lumin though. You might be right. This Friday morning, I will be at a local dealer to compare JRiver/PC vs Lumin U1 Mini. Depending on what I hear, I might let myself be tempted and see if there is a way to compare the T2 with my Hegel DAC.
 
With the T2 you only get DSD512 through USB. This is not unusual. It uses the ESS 9028 chip. Certainly not bad but certainly not as good as the 9038 (I have compared the two). Some people prefer the AKM DAC chip in your Hegel, certainly personal preference.

The U1 Mini supports up to DSD256, not 512 according to Lumin's own info. Again DSD256 is only through USB.

Also, while JRiver is solid playback software, many people, me included consider Roon in a completely different league. The Lumin states that it supports Roon also.

Don't think you are getting MQA for free, the cost is certainly included in the price. Personal preference about MQA. It is certainly good for streaming but I, along with many others consider DSD vastly better if you are talking about locally stored files. A PC will allow you to actually achieve DSD512, and even consider running HQ Player and play all your digital at DSD512, including what you stream from Tidal through Roon.

Just some other true information to think about. Of course the other consideration is that a well built more than enough powered PC will cost 1/3 the price or less. Also keep in mind that a dealer has a vested interest in making sure his machine, in this case the Lumin U1 Mini sounds better than a PC. Remember all of these machines are in fact computers, in sheep clothing so to speak.

I would gladly put my computer/software against any "server" that you could buy at twice the price.
 
Randy Myers said:
With the T2 you only get DSD512 through USB. Certainly not bad but certainly not as good as the 9038 (I have compared the two). Some people prefer the AKM DAC chip in your Hegel, certainly personal preference.

The U1 Mini supports up to DSD256, not 512 according to Lumin's own info.

Don't think you are getting MQA for free, the cost is certainly included in the price.
Click to expand...

None of the current Lumin supports USB input. T2 supports DSD512 from network.

As I stated we have Hegel users using different Lumin (D2 and T2) confirmed improved SQ from Lumin analog output, there are also reviews confirming that. It's not just a DAC chip problem - the DAC chip is only a really small part of the SQ. In fact if you put any decent DAC (even if not a Lumin) before an integrated amp DAC, they are usually better.

Lumin MQA is really free, and we have proof. From pre-MQA firmware to Lumin MQA firmware, we did not charge Lumin users anything. They all got free MQA upgrade.
 
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