The Smith Chart and...Power Cords

Spock said:
As you wich. I just still don't understand why when some talk or want to talk about cables, quickly the deniers appear telling all of them that they are just being fools who don't realize that they are being deceived by their senses
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Prefaced by Beyond audiophile comprehension as ever Just a moment...
Never enough for believers to just enjoy their senses like everyone else, FUD requires crutches, wormhole looking graphs, etc.

Spock said:
they shouldn't trust their ears.
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We know they don't, since they avoid "trust their ears" aka controlled blind "trust your ears"/one sense tests like the plague. :)
Basic word meanings elude obviously.

cheers
 
ack said:
I am glad you are asking these questions, which by no fault of yours show a fundamental lack of understanding of noise, and that is common:

1) "First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?"

Electronic noise is literally everywhere: it comes from the AM, FM airwaves; our WiFi routers; our own electronics of any kind that feed back noise into the same power lines, etc. If you were to look at a spectrum analyzer (never mind the basic Entech device and its ilk), you would see a power line littered with HF and UHF noise. Some of it is picked up because wires feeding our homes act as antennas, others as I said are generated by own electronics (for example, diodes in the equipment power supplies are themselves switching devices that generate noise, and some of it makes back out into the power lines). Collectively, this is the noise riding in the power lines, and again, some of it is picked up by the power company's power lines acting as antennas, some of it is generated inside our own homes and our own equipment, some of it by our neighbors'

2) "Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter?" -

Beyond the antenna effect, electronic noise obviously enters our equipment at the start of the power supply inside our equipment, like a power transformer if we are talking about an analog power supply; similarly for switching power supplies. This is why power cords and conditioners go between the power lines and our equipment. Do not confuse "power supply" in our equipment with the power company's supply of power. Two distinct things. The Company supplies dirty power, and internally our equipment feature power supplies that convert AC from the lines into DC as best as possible, which in turn is then internally modulated to create sound. This internal modulation further includes switching devices like transistors, which inherently also generate noise which can then be fed back into the power line - there is no gain w/o pain. The better equipment the less internal noise it will generate and the less it will feed back.

Given all that, putting power cords and power conditioners between the Power Company's dirty power lines and the power supplies in our equipment CAN have an effect, sometimes positive (desired), others negative. The competent power treatment designs will help, the rest won't. Therefore, tread carefully as they say. Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies, and consequently between our equipment as well. The Entech device, again, tells us (within its limited operating bandwidth) that there is at least AM noise riding on our power lines, and there is much more noise riding on them as well.

Noise is real and well-understood science and real physics, and in fact, it is a multi-faceted problem - there is nothing voodoo about it. And I will avoid talking about how quickly a power cord and conditioner can deliver current on demand to our equipment - another subject where Shunyata have shown with measurements they can probably outperform anyone else's offerings, especially those cheap cords that come packaged with our equipment.

Hope this helps

-ack
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Thanks for your comprehensive reply, but you haven't addressed my second question - if the "noise" is generated along the entire cabling system from the generating station to the wall socket behind your rack (as you have described), how can a few feet of fancy cable that joins this socket to the back of the amp make a scrap of difference?

Simple question, but as yet unanswered. Thanks
 
Hear Here said:
fancy cable that joins this socket to the back of the amp make a scrap of difference?
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Methinks audiophiles like Mr Wayne plug them directly into their ears, otherwise they would have to measure at the transducer terminals, or better yet, demonstrate they can hear transduced "noise" without peeking through wormholes.
Quite the dilemma :)
 
Hear Here said:
Thanks for your comprehensive reply, but you haven't addressed my second question - if the "noise" is generated along the entire cabling system from the generating station to the wall socket behind your rack (as you have described), how can a few feet of fancy cable that joins this socket to the back of the amp make a scrap of difference?

Simple question, but as yet unanswered. Thanks
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I think the question has been answered aplenty: first, you have the Entech readings with and without the noise reducing power cord; second, we explained how capacitive coupling between hot and neutral reduces high frequency noise right before it enters our equipment; third, as I said before "Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies"

There is a fundamental difference between "fancy", as you put it, and "functional" as we are describing.

-ack
 
ack said:
I think the question has been answered aplenty: first, you have the Entech readings with and without the noise reducing power cord; second, we explained how capacitive coupling between hot and neutral reduces high frequency noise right before it enters our equipment; third, as I said before "Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies"

There is a fundamental difference between "fancy", as you put it, and "functional" as we are describing.

-ack
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Sorry, but I give up. Without a meter that seems to measure what sounds to me to be a completely harmless (or perhaps a non-existent) effect, and one that my amplifier's power supply should be designed to cope with anyway, I'll stick with my existing simple but effective screened Belden cable. If it's good enough for pro studios, it's good enough for me. But thanks for your explanations anyway.
 
Translation, you did answer the question, more than once, but wasted your time because nothing you say will convince me.

If you actually did compare your Belden to anything else of quality and heard no difference you should have stated that initially and end of discussion. But that was your out when faced with facts.

ACK adressed the area of a person may not hearing a difference or even making things worse. Power products, your gear and our homes are all different.

FWIW, when I first tried power products, at the time using nothing but stock, I wanted to try a multi outlet power conditioner. The sales guy wanted me to try a PC. I didn't want to but took it to appease him. The power conditioner I took back it made things some worse. I had a Krell amp at the time and I think the conditioner choked it. However, since I had the PC I tried it. The improvement was so good I purchased a PC for everything I had that had a detachable cord. As I recall my phono stage and CDP showed the most improvement but even the Krell amp showed better performance with the better cord.

Hear Here said:
Sorry, but I give up. Without a meter that seems to measure what seems to be a completely harmless (or perhaps a non-existent) effect, that my amplifier's power supply should be designed to cope with anyway), and my ears not noticing any difference, I'll stick with my existing simple but effective screened Belden cable. If it's good enough for pro studios, it's good enough for me. But thanks for your explanations anyway.
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This thread has been an interesting read for me. It’s truly amazing that people still think power cords have no sonic benefits. Please, I invite you to the store. We will use a single integrated amp with a built in DAC (you can pick - boulder, Soulution, Hegel, etc) and speakers of your choice and music of your choice and the only thing we will change is the one single power cord which is running everything. Stock against after market. If you still think it’s all psychosomatic, awesome. No harm no foul. But I guarantee you will be dumbfounded by the differences and sonic improvements.


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Mike said:
This thread has been an interesting read for me. It’s truly amazing that people still think power cords have no sonic benefits. Please, I invite you to the store. We will use a single integrated amp with a built in DAC (you can pick - boulder, Soulution, Hegel, etc) and speakers of your choice and music of your choice and the only thing we will change is the one single power cord which is running everything. Stock against after market. If you still think it’s all psychosomatic, awesome. No harm no foul. But I guarantee you will be dumbfounded by the differences and sonic improvements.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Get AJ to show up and convince him!
 
mep said:
Get AJ to show up and convince him!
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No need, he just needs to show me an e-meter reading with that wormhole thing, measurements suddenly matter now. New age audiophile, if I can measure 0.00001% THD aka "electrical noise", its audible, period.
I wonder what recordings for the last 50 years have no noise riding for free, baked permanently in? Or does magic "rinse" them clean??
Oh well, as incomprehensible as ever...Just a moment...
 
Too bad the only competent "engineers" in high end audio are the cable guys, the mega buck component guys designing the power supplies in every audiophile system aren't worth a poop.
 
MichaelsMinute said:
Yup. As we see time and time again with their posts. They never fail to entertain though they are a bit predicatble and easy to trigger.
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Yep, I have a TLA I personally use....MFB: Male Fighting Behavior.

FWIW, I see the same exact behavior in any internet forum that is predominantly all-male: sports cars, sport bikes, digital cameras, as well as audio. Doesn't matter what the "subject" or topic is, I see the same exact behavior. By contrast, you never see women behaving this way on-line.
 
Mike said:
It’s truly amazing that people still think power cords have no sonic benefits.
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Absolutely unbelievable.
For me it's the equivalent of the "middle age" of audio...

AJ Soundfield said:
Too bad the only competent "engineers" in high end audio are the cable guys, the mega buck component guys designing the power supplies in every audiophile system aren't worth a poop.
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Many may even be good, but until they understand the importance of cables, they "aren't there" yet. Time and (true) science will prove it one day.
 
Gotta love cable/wire discussions !!!:yahoo1:

Mike, I applaud you for making the offer at your store. Hopefully someone will take you up on it, perhaps I will when I'm down your way next month.
 
Mikado463 said:
Gotta love cable/wire discussions !!!:yahoo1:

Mike, I applaud you for making the offer at your store. Hopefully someone will take you up on it, perhaps I will when I'm down your way next month.
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Absolutely!


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Mikado463 said:
Gotta love cable/wire discussions !!!:yahoo1:

Mike, I applaud you for making the offer at your store. Hopefully someone will take you up on it, perhaps I will when I'm down your way next month.
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I'd be there in a flash were it not for the thousands of miles between us. The cable and other similar audiophile tweak demos I've seen at audio shows have been generally underwhelming to the extent they have a tinge of the "The Emperor's New Clothes" about them, with many attendees ruefully nodding in recognition of the "massive sound improvement" - yet keeping their hands firmly in their pockets.

Perhaps I should be more open-minded and ask a local dealer to do his best to convince me one way or the other. ;)
 
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