The Smith Chart and...Power Cords
- Thread starter Puma Cat
- Start date
Yes - totally unconvincing as all it did was show the reading on an irrelevant meter
The article only until I realised that it was written by vested interests.
I'd love that simply changing power cables would make some magical improvement to the sound I hear from my system, but I'm afraid I don't believe in magic and Physics cannot support the snake salesman's patter.
Or have I missed something other than what I said in my first post (#14) in this thread ? As I said, I have upgraded from standard supplied cables to ones using Belden 19364 for the reasons I stated. Can you offer any justification for spending more on the cables that carry the voltage between the wall socket and the primary winding of the transformer (or equivalent electronic device)? If so, changing the cables would be a cheap and worthwhile upgrade if it genuinely could improve upon the 240 volts that my kit is currently happy with.
The meter is quite relevant, I also have one. The Shunyata Alpha NR that I have appears to shunt from hot to neutral with 583nF capacitance, and the Venom NR (in the video, which I also have) the same plus hot to ground with 1nF capacitance. Without opening up the cords' receptacles (where the circuits are located) it's hard to tell if they are employing a simple (and well known) delta capacitance configuration or something else (e.g. star?).
This capacitive shunting for noise reduction is pretty common inside electronics, whereby you will see signal ground shunted to chassis ground with a simple capacitor, which is then routed to earth ground. You will find similar configurations on some Neutrik XLR connectors, where they use a tiny capacitor to couple pin 1 (ground) to the metal. For example, see Just a moment... "Integrated Capacitor for RF Shielding" and "Circular capacitor around the cable shield enables low-inductive shield connection to connector housing"
Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter. And this coupling between hot and neutral and/or ground is the reason why just simply plugging in that Shunyata cord lowers the noise reading on the meter.
Whether you believe in power cords or not is personal, but let it be known there is real science practiced by SOME companies.
-ack
> Here, they appear to apply it on the power line, hence the lower reading on that meter.
But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound? My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard - my music is dead silent as far as noise is concerned. If the transformer needed anything other than 240 volts (+/- about 10%) at 50 cps and my wall socket couldn't supply that, then perhaps a fancy cable may magically fix things so the transformer is even happier. However all is perfectly well with cheap Belden cable and I would never look at anything fancier unless there was a molecule of evidence (supported by the laws of physics) to suggest that spending more on a power cable makes a scrap of difference.
But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound? My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard - my music is dead silent as far as noise is concerned. If the transformer needed anything other than 240 volts (+/- about 10%) at 50 cps and my wall socket couldn't supply that, then perhaps a fancy cable may magically fix things so the transformer is even happier. However all is perfectly well with cheap Belden cable and I would never look at anything fancier unless there was a molecule of evidence (supported by the laws of physics) to suggest that spending more on a power cable makes a scrap of difference.
Speedskater
Member
Read this: WHY POWER CABLES MAKE A DIFFERENCE | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio
Oh dear, oh dear.
Watch this...
Shunyata Research noise-reducing power cord demonstration - YouTube
Oh dear, oh dear.
and this...
V14D Demo Part 2 - YouTube
Oh dear, oh dear.
Oh dear, oh dear.
Watch this...
Shunyata Research noise-reducing power cord demonstration - YouTube
Oh dear, oh dear.
and this...
V14D Demo Part 2 - YouTube
Oh dear, oh dear.
Mr Peabody
Active member
Blah, blah, where's your physics, looks like you are jumping on the bandwagon and clanging.
PC's make an audible difference. It's noticeable and repeatable. I don't have to be able to explain how anything works as long as it does. I don't design it, I just use it. No one who is ragging on cords has ever admitted doing any listening/comparing. Boneheads who have some ax to grind.
We get it you don't believe PC make a difference, you aren't going to try, so now go away.
PC's make an audible difference. It's noticeable and repeatable. I don't have to be able to explain how anything works as long as it does. I don't design it, I just use it. No one who is ragging on cords has ever admitted doing any listening/comparing. Boneheads who have some ax to grind.
We get it you don't believe PC make a difference, you aren't going to try, so now go away.
If they play like they did against the Lions don't expect that kind of comeback against KC !
is Purdy a Mahomes ? no, not yet ..........
Speedskater
Member
San Fransisco 49'ers?
The local team beat them 19 to 17.
The local team beat them 19 to 17.
Regarding "My speakers are 107 dB so any noise should be easily heard" - this is a common mistake in thinking what electronic noise is. It is not buzz, hash, hiss; electronic noise is *part of the signal* and rides with it. The effect is all kinds of sonic distortion, that you only realize is there when you remove the noise - examples would include timbral inaccuracies, grunge, compression, hard treble, et al
The Entech meter we are talking about measures noise in the power line in the AM range, and modulates it down to the human audible range so you can hear it easily, and indeed, I am hearing all kinds of conversations riding on my power lines in my own house. When you then attenuate that noise (however you do it), you obviously hear much much less of that AM noise via that device... and there are many other devices like that, which operate on different frequency ranges.
Thus, the AM or other high frequency noise *riding* on our lines ends up making it into the power transformers and the equipment power supplies, and eventually into the amplified musical signals we call music, and distorts the waveform to various degrees. The good news is that there are competent power cords that help the situation, and the bad news is there are many that don't or make it worse. Ditto for power conditioners.
So when you ask "But why even measure it if it makes no difference to the sound?" - we measure it exactly because it makes a difference, in terms of feeding our power supplies cleaner power, which ends up in cleaner internal voltage rails inside our components, which ends up in cleaner and less distorted sound. And again, you don't know it until the noise is removed. It would be incorrect for anyone to think that our equipment is impervious to power line noise, and/or that our power supplies remove all of it; I wish it worked like that...
Hope that makes sense
-ack
They are not de last, they are the first...
And half a meter is enough to make difference!
AJ Soundfield
Active member
Beyond audiophile comprehension...but I'll post again anyway
Just a moment...Stop fretting about the why crutches...and just enjoy what you hear, like everyone else.
cheers
There are thousands of audiophiles around the world who testify that differences exist. What is the statistical probability that they are all wrong?
About the funny link you post.
We know that the way we capture reality may not be the true reality.
The example of colors. We see different colors. But what there is is light, it is an electromagnetic wave that we interpret as color. In this sense we can say that colors do not exist. But there is something different at the origin that our brain decodes as color: the length of the wave that reaches us! In other words, at the origin there is something different, which can then even give rise to different interpretations. In the example of color we have color blind people. Could audiophiles who don't notice differences be "sound colorblind"? :S
About the funny link you post.
We know that the way we capture reality may not be the true reality.
The example of colors. We see different colors. But what there is is light, it is an electromagnetic wave that we interpret as color. In this sense we can say that colors do not exist. But there is something different at the origin that our brain decodes as color: the length of the wave that reaches us! In other words, at the origin there is something different, which can then even give rise to different interpretations. In the example of color we have color blind people. Could audiophiles who don't notice differences be "sound colorblind"? :S
a.wayne
Active member
Hockey match ..?
BTW Anyone listening to class D amps are automatically disqualified from hearing differences in PC ..
:roflmao:
Thanks, but sadly it doesn't make sense - at least not to me, a questioning "noise" cynic, who is eager to learn more about it!
First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?
Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter? Is it at the power station a hundred miles away, or in the high voltage cable connecting the generator to you local sub-station, maybe 5 miles away, or from the low voltage cable from the sub-station to your fuse box, or between the fuse box and the wall socket behind your equipment rack, or the last few feet of the supply between the wall socket and the back of the amp or DAC?
If by some magical and fortunate coincidence it enters this long power supply chain after the wall socket (a totally incredibly situation), then perhaps a fancy last few feet of cable may help. Otherwise there's zero point in changing these last few feet unless you persuade your power supplier to upgrade the hundred miles or so from the power station, or wherever the "noise" enters the power supply chain.
Let's start by getting those basic and seemingly straight-forward questions answered in a convincing way before we take the next step in examining in a scientific way the question of this mysterious "noise" and how to get rid of it - if in fact it exists and needs to be got rid of.
Not trying to be difficult but simply asking the first questions such that I may understand your (and others) claims about the benefit of spending hundreds on a few feet of cable that is no part of the musical signal, but simply a voltage that allows the transistors, valves, etc to do their simple job of amplifying the incoming signal, or converting the digital stream to an analogue signal.
Thanks
AJ Soundfield
Active member
Great.
The End.
I am glad you are asking these questions, which by no fault of yours show a fundamental lack of understanding of noise, and that is common:
1) "First question is where does this "noise" come from? How it it generated and by what?"
Electronic noise is literally everywhere: it comes from the AM, FM airwaves; our WiFi routers; our own electronics of any kind that feed back noise into the same power lines, etc. If you were to look at a spectrum analyzer (never mind the basic Entech device and its ilk), you would see a power line littered with HF and UHF noise. Some of it is picked up because wires feeding our homes act as antennas, others as I said are generated by own electronics (for example, diodes in the equipment power supplies are themselves switching devices that generate noise, and some of it makes back out into the power lines). Collectively, this is the noise riding in the power lines, and again, some of it is picked up by the power company's power lines acting as antennas, some of it is generated inside our own homes and our own equipment, some of it by our neighbors'
2) "Second and most importantly, where in one's power supply does this noise enter?" -
Beyond the antenna effect, electronic noise obviously enters our equipment at the start of the power supply inside our equipment, like a power transformer if we are talking about an analog power supply; similarly for switching power supplies. This is why power cords and conditioners go between the power lines and our equipment. Do not confuse "power supply" in our equipment with the power company's supply of power. Two distinct things. The Company supplies dirty power, and internally our equipment feature power supplies that convert AC from the lines into DC as best as possible, which in turn is then internally modulated to create sound. This internal modulation further includes switching devices like transistors, which inherently also generate noise which can then be fed back into the power line - there is no gain w/o pain. The better equipment the less internal noise it will generate and the less it will feed back.
Given all that, putting power cords and power conditioners between the Power Company's dirty power lines and the power supplies in our equipment CAN have an effect, sometimes positive (desired), others negative. The competent power treatment designs will help, the rest won't. Therefore, tread carefully as they say. Power cords and power conditioners are nothing more than filters between the power lines and the equipment power supplies, and consequently between our equipment as well. The Entech device, again, tells us (within its limited operating bandwidth) that there is at least AM noise riding on our power lines, and there is much more noise riding on them as well.
Noise is real and well-understood science and real physics, and in fact, it is a multi-faceted problem - there is nothing voodoo about it. And I will avoid talking about how quickly a power cord and conditioner can deliver current on demand to our equipment - another subject where Shunyata have shown with measurements they can probably outperform anyone else's offerings, especially those cheap cords that come packaged with our equipment.
Hope this helps
-ack
As you wich. I just still don't understand why when some talk or want to talk about cables, quickly the deniers appear telling all of them that they are just being fools who don't realize that they are being deceived by their senses and they shouldn't trust their ears.
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