AC Power Cable "Break-In"

[NorthStar]

AC Power Cable - "Break-in" (http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12845-AC-Power-cable-quot-break-in-quot&p=235136&viewfull=1#post235136)

Opinions?

[the professor]

Good read once you get past all the big words. :)

[NorthStar]

I'm no expert in that department (not the big words but the "break-in" period for AC power cords).

Electricity is electricity, and an electric wire is an electric wire is an electric wire. :)

[Mike]

That was very interesting.

[iamhifi]

Great read and so true, the power cables are easy to break in, get an adaptor hook it to your refrigerator for 2 weeks, a few hours on your system and you are done.

[dlb2]

I believe it Bob. Electricity is electricity, but everyones system is different and the cables need to get acclimated to the system that they are hooked up to. I think of it as buying a car. Whether new or used you, the driver, need time to figure out how it works, how it feels, etc... to get the best out of it.

[dlb2]

"Refrigerator"; ok, I'm on it right away. ...I let you know in two-weeks time.
...Should I put them in the freezer too for two weeks?

Your igloo should be fine. :)

[NorthStar]

I believe it Bob. Electricity is electricity, but everyone's system is different and the cables need to get acclimated to the system that they are hooked up to. I think of it as buying a car. Whether new or used you, the driver, need time to figure out how it works, how it feels, etc... to get the best out of it.

Doug, we are totally free to believe anything and anyone.
"The cables need to get acclimated to the system that they are hooked up to."
It's the same with that nice bottle of red wine you just purchased. ...Or that brand new wife you just married.

It makes total perfect sense. Then how come nobody is measuring it and divulge the results (objectively, and subjectively)???

[NorthStar]

Your igloo should be fine. :)

My igloo is so fine that everything that comes inside get broken-in instantly! :)

___________________

Us people, crazy audiophiles of the vast universe; it is amazing sometimes what we can come up with and post on audio fora! :D

[dlb2]

My igloo is so fine that everything that comes inside get broken-in instantly! :)

___________________

Us people, crazy audiophiles of the vast universe; it is amazing sometimes what we can come up with and post on audio fora! :D

:audiophile: Cryogenics, that's the ticket!

[dlb2]

Doug, we are totally free to believe anything and anyone.
"The cables need to get acclimated to the system that they are hooked up to."
It's the same with that nice bottle of red wine you just purchased. ...Or that brand new wife you just married.

It makes total perfect sense. Then how come nobody is measuring it and divulge the results (objectively, and subjectively)???

I can't answer that Bob. Maybe, and remember I said "maybe", the results don't have an effect on the measuring devices. Perhaps the flow of electricity is the same but the sound is different. Perhaps break-in is just "break down" and what you're hearing is the effect of time being a cruel mistress on the wire. It's aging, like your bottle of fine wine. But I'm just talking here is all...

[Mike]

Like I've been saying all along - we can't measure everything our ears can hear. So, when someone tells me that speaker X is better than speaker Y because of measurements - I just laugh. The measurements only tell half the story.

[Mikado463]

isn't it amazing what drugs will do to a persons brain !............:exciting:

[NorthStar]

Absolutely Doug; we're simply having a friendly discussion.
What amazes me the most though is the people's opinion (two) who are claiming that already broken-in cables need to be broken-in again if you used them in a new system!

I mean I love life and everything in it, and my audio passion runs deep into the stream of my blood cells, and I wish I had more time to do all the things that truly matter.

[NorthStar]

isn't it amazing what drugs will do to a persons brain !............:exciting:

Very true, and measured or nut! ;)

[dlb2]

isn't it amazing what drugs will do to a persons brain !............:exciting:

What was the question? :)

[NorthStar]

1 + 1 = ? :cool:

[NorthStar]

What was the question? :)

----------That! ^

[dlb2]

So Bob, back to the idea that even used cables need to be acclimated to a different system... Lets try my car analogy again. If you were to drive my Yugo and I your Ferrari, it would take each of us a certain amount of time to become one with the car. Once that flow is attained then everything upside down is righted again. The new used cables just need some driving time to offer their peak performance. Again, I'm just talkin'...

[NorthStar]

Yes, but let's say that this woman audiophile (Roxanne) with an ultra high end stereo hi-fi system, has everything perfectly dialed in for the last few months or so; break-in cables and AC power cords and all.

Then one day she decides to bring her AC power cord to her best girlfriend's (Angela) ultra high end stereo hi-fi system to see (hear) if it would make a difference for the better?

Angela then asks Roxy if the AC power cord is brand new; Roxy says "no" and that she has been using it in her own system for the last two months or so. Then Angela says "perfect, let's get on with the listening comparison". ...Music listening session.

* Was there a mistake committed somewhere along the way? ...Just talkin' .... :)

[dlb2]

Oh absolutely, I wasn't invited! :P

No, there was no mistake committed. Perhaps Roxie's ultra high end SET amp draws power differently than Angie's ultra high end SS amp. They will have a fun time listening to music and perhaps in a few days time Angie calls Roxy up to tell her that her system has never sounded better.

The End.

[NorthStar]

Let's see other's viewpoint.

[GrantS]

Was there a question or comment associated, or just throwing it up for fun? If there's a legit question that can be answered, we've been consistent in answering them on other forums and would do the same here if its a reasoned, genuine question.

Caelin covered the technical angle of power cord break in from his point of view because it had become a common topic on the forums he posted it to --and his opinion was requested by the OP. There are those that have genuine curiosity about the topic and of course, others who believe it's all part of a larger myth of power cables affecting performance at all. Posting a naked link here is a little like chumming for sharks from the looks of it.. :)

Frankly, outside of the internet forums, which draw opinion from all over-- even from those that won't be bothered to try an aftermarket power cord, there is no break-in debate. It is not a subtle enough phenomenon that it could be confused with mood, unfamiliarity ("getting to know you") or the senses being fooled. If a system is well calibrated for 2-ch listening, the arc of most custom-designed power cord's performance over the first five days is dramatic and consistent to each product.

Those who were not aware of the degree of these effects have been calling me for the better part of 14 years. The descriptive comments based on the days of use are so similar that I no longer need them to describe whatever they are hearing. They just need to tell me how many days (hours of use) they have with the product and I can accurately describe the general sound characteristics of that stage. Either I'm clairvoyant (which I'm definitely not), or there are consistent, easy to identify similarities in how a specific model power cord (of ours) will sound on each day after it is brought home and used.

Obviously, each class and type of product will have their own unique burn-in cycle, but the associated characteristics of a cable's performance as it changes over a specific time interval is similar for a given product. Again, its not a subtle phenomenon.

At the top of the recording/mastering community, where the best engineers examine sound so carefully its as if by microscope, most of them understand and accept burn-in of any new cable product as a simple fact of life. If they move, bend or otherwise mishandle cable, they know it has to sit for a few hours with signal/current to re-stabilize.

This phenomenon hasn't been measured and explicated scientifically because no one's going to enter into that research without serious funding or in essence "get paid" for the work. Even if incontrovertible truths were uncovered, the forum arguments would continue much as they are and the measurements would be refuted (quacks, paid off etc).

There are generally two poles of opinion that are common to these types of discussions. Pole One: are end users who have empirical experience with countless products that go through rather unequivocal changes over the first week or more of use. Pole Two: are those who have already determined without having performed their own tests that burn in related to power cords and, or cables in general is based on the wild imaginings of the audiophile community. There are Poles in between, sure, but these are the main two.

I hope this sheds a bit of context on Caelin's post that got dart-boarded…. :)

Regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research

[Mike]

Grant - thank you for shedding some light on the burn-in cycle. We appreciate your input and the education you provide. I definitely believe in the importance of cable burn in. I can't explain it per se, but I know it makes a difference.

[NorthStar]

Yes, thank you Grant for expressing your view. We all appreciate people genuinely sharing.

Best regards,
Bob

[BlueFox]

Maybe we should stop calling it burn-in, and come up with a better term. I prefer 'atomic alignment', as my hypothesis is the atoms in the cable become aligned over time, and this allows the cable to be a more efficient conductor.

[the professor]

Personally I could care less why break-in makes a difference. I do however find in fascinating why. Which is why I find this discussion great.

[NorthStar]

When I first read that post (post #1; link) I also thought the same; fascinating.

Then I wanted to share what I did find fascinating with my friends, but without forming any opinion; I just wanted to hear what people have to say.
Then I soon expressed mine too; regarding already "break-in" ('Atomic Alignment') AC power cords from one system, and then if used in another system, and found it even more fascinating that they needed to be "broken-in" ('atomic alignment') again! ...According to some.*

I've seen many things in my life, and I've read few two, and I consider myself a bright person.
I judge no one who has an opinion, but I like to comment on that opinion, not who has it.
That way I can learn something without being judged.

But life is tough once in a while, and having an opinion on an opinion that you are wondering about is like, for some people, hurting their feelings. No?
Is there a single word, a single thought in my post that seems to be unfair? Of course not.

We love to be happy, have fun, laugh, being humorous, learn, share, and we always respect.
We're all humans, sensitive people, smart people, and we know life's true essential values above all else.

There is a balance on our planet; and it is a mix of seriousness (at the right times), with pleasure (fun 'bout).
Everyone is free to choose his own balance for himself/herself, and nobody else has the right to tell them if their balance is right or wrong, as long that they don't really do anything wrong.

The words we use, are the words that describe us, our lines of thought. And the way we put them together, are not the same from one another. And our actions are direct reflections of who we truly are, our lines of thought.

* The part in purple is the part that I'm most interested in. And that's where I would love to learn more about. ...Anyone? ...Grant?

[GaryProtein]

. . . .What amazes me the most though is the people (two) who are claiming that already broken-in cables need to be broken-in again if you used them in a new system! . . . .

Some people think if you pick up the cables and lay them back down again, they need to be broken in again.

[NorthStar]

I would love to know why, scientifically speaking Gary. ...But I don't think I'll ever get that answer.

About you Gary, what do you think?

* Anyhow I'll see if one of my local audio dealers carry them and I'll get few of them (they're very affordable anyway),
and will experiment with them, and compare them to others, and in two different systems; unbroken (not atomically aligned), and breaking them in and re-breaking them in and lifting them of the floor and re-positioning them on the floor and re-re-breaking them in again. ...Ouf!

[dlb2]

Then I wanted to share what I did find fascinating with my friends, but without forming any opinion; I just wanted to hear what people have to say.
Then I soon expressed mine too; regarding already "break-in" ('Atomic Alignment') AC power cords from one system, and then if used in another system, and found it even more fascinating that they needed to be "broken-in" ('atomic alignment') again! ...According to some.*



Bob, I think Grant touched on that here in his post.

...At the top of the recording/mastering community, where the best engineers examine sound so carefully its as if by microscope, most of them understand and accept burn-in of any new cable product as a simple fact of life. If they move, bend or otherwise mishandle cable, they know it has to sit for a few hours with signal/current to re-stabilize.

This phenomenon hasn't been measured and explicated scientifically because no one's going to enter into that research without serious funding or in essence "get paid" for the work. Even if incontrovertible truths were uncovered, the forum arguments would continue much as they are and the measurements would be refuted (quacks, paid off etc).


I would think that this part,

If they move, bend or otherwise mishandle cable,

would also include changing cables to different systems.

[GrantS]

Bob, I think Grant touched on that here in his post.

If they move, bend or otherwise mishandle cable,

would also include changing cables to different systems.

Yes, exactly. I don't want to go too far into the technical "why's" because for the most part this would be based on informed opinion and experience rather than measurement or commonly accepted science. However, not unlike breaking down and moving or shipping components, cables that are removed from a system and bent, twisted or 'shocked' by dropping or otherwise rough handling can take a few hours to "settle" when reapplied to the same, or a different system.

I travel extensively with the products. We set up shows; we demonstrate for recording professionals and dealers so this "phenomenon" has been repeated hundreds if not thousands of times. If the product is broken in and handled with care, there is a settling time of about one to three hours where the sound goes through some change. If the product was shipped or had some rough handling, this time frame extends from hours to a day or two, maybe more depending on the design and extent of bending/twisting/bumping.

When we visit recording engineers, quite often there can be some healthy skepticism about the product itself, so I can't in good conscience ask them to wait three days before testing once I arrive--that would tip them right off their chair. Instead, I ship the product ahead with burn-in adaptors. I find a friendly ear, maybe one of the tech's, and ask that the products be plugged in and run off of a light, fan or other electronics away from the system to be used for test for 3-5 days prior to my arrival. Once there, I carefully move the product to the system to be used as the test and apply the products. Then, we sit down to discuss what the products are and how they work before any listening occurs. This gives still more time and has worked extremely well for years. We've converted many hardened skeptics at the top of their respective field--which makes what I do enjoyable.

I don't want to overstate this effect or imply there is any scientific proof involved. It's largely experiential, so for those that haven't had the experience or already struggle with the idea of power cords affecting sound, I don't want to go too far down that path. We use the term "settling" a lot because its a calming word and won't bristle the brow of the technically inclined. If I were to say, 'please allow several days for the proper atomic alignment of the metals', I'd be shown the door… Though I'd love to try that just once to see the reaction. :)

Regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research

[Mikado463]

The wife wanted me to move a lamp for her the other night, I couldn't do it, it would have taken too long for the cable to 'break in' again after I moved it !

[Mike]

The wife wanted me to move a lamp for her the other night, I couldn't do it, it would have taken too long for the cable to 'break in' again after I moved it !

Grant - are there cables you have found that take longer to break in then others? For example, a pair of Anaconda speaker cables may take 3 times longer than a Venom 3 power cord? I've found that power cables seem to take the longest, IC's the shortest and speaker cables somewhere in the middle.

[GrantS]

:)

People do readily accept that when you turn on a component like an amp or CD player, it can take the same 1-3 hours(some longer) for those components to settle and perform to their full potential. That might be the more palatable explanation and that works fine for me. In doing industry evals, controlling variables is important. We recognize settling/burn in as a variable and try to control it as best we can. That doesn't mean that you can't appreciate the dramatic changes that become apparent on first application of a new cable or one that's gone through some jostling. It's just that there are changes along the way, some of which can be avoided if you are careful not to treat the cable like a bungee cord.

[dlb2]

Good info Grant, thanks. :)

[BlueFox]

We use the term "settling" a lot because its a calming word and won't bristle the brow of the technically inclined. If I were to say, 'please allow several days for the proper atomic alignment of the metals', I'd be shown the door… Though I'd love to try that just once to see the reaction. :)


'Settling' is a good word, until somebody asks just what is 'settling'.

I have always been a fan of alliteration, so maybe 'molecular movement' is more apt. As in 'minimum molecular movement makes music more magnificent'. :)

[Mikado463]

:)

People do readily accept that when you turn on a component like an amp or CD player, it can take the same 1-3 hours(some longer) for those components to settle and perform to their full potential.

Grant, I've got to ask…….. what is there within a CD player that takes up to three hours to 'settle in' ?

[NorthStar]

First, thank you Doug for your gentle reply (post #31 above).

And thank you Grant for a truly fascinating subject, and with your explanations; I am reading attentively.

And I'm sorry if earlier I came up sounding like skeptical with my unique sense of humor; rest assured that I always respect everyone.

Thank you again to what more and more I see as a very interesting discussion, and for Grant's patience and contribution.
- Shunyata Research seems to be well grounded, with realistically (very reasonable) priced products, and with performance to back them up.
So it is even more rewarding to have some real feedback by someone in the know (experienced) on how to care for them products when used in our own systems.

Kudos to you Grant. I am learning.

[GrantS]

Grant - are there cables you have found that take longer to break in then others? For example, a pair of Anaconda speaker cables may take 3 times longer than a Venom 3 power cord? I've found that power cables seem to take the longest, IC's the shortest and speaker cables somewhere in the middle.

Each product, whether ours or another company's will likely have its own unique characteristics and time-frame for break in based on the design, the gauge, termination metals, connection type. Within our range, probably the Digital cables take the longest due to the signal type.

With power cords, yes, the larger the cord, the longer the break-in cycle and the more unpredictable the process --it can also depend on what type of load is applied to break it in.

Speaker cables are a pain in particular because you can't just use an adaptor and run them on a fan or a light. There are burn-in devices that can help, but speaker cables will still benefit the most from time in the system between amp and speaker. Interconnects are probably the fastest to break in, but in all a good rule of thumb is 5-6 days of heavy use for cables, a little more for the digital cables or particularly heavy gauge cables.

Regards,

Grant

[GrantS]

Grant, I've got to ask…….. what is there within a CD player that takes up to three hours to 'settle in' ?

Companies that make Digital products such as Bel Canto and DCS have long advocated warm-up of the DAC/CD/Clock devices. John Stronzer of Bel Canto or David Steven of DCS could explain it some detail, but in general it has to do with the DAC's stabilizing after having been off for any length of time.

With Tube amps, the guys at ARC, VAC, LAMM, Atmasphere, VTL and others would explain thermal issues and tubes coming to balance. Any number of solid-state electronics engineers have explained why the warm-up of their transformers for several hours is important before critical listening.

Each category of product may have different issues that lead to needing "on-time" of some variation from an hour to several hours to sound their best (some advocate longer), but they all agree that warm up after being off is important. For cables break-in/warm-up is not nearly as well understood, so controversy usually follows such discussions on the internet. That's why I'm not sure its a great idea to import and post cable "break-in" posts from other forums without any context. It tends to invite argument, off topic comments and incivility from my experience.

I apologize if I could not fully explain the technical reason CDP's require some play time after being off, but I'm sure if you reached out to any competent digital engineer in our field they'd tell you more than you wanted to know… They've done that with me and of course, um, I didn't retain that information… :)

Grant

[Mike]

Well said Grant and I have addressed that concern with the Op.

[NorthStar]

... Within our range, probably the Digital cables take the longest due to the signal type.

... Interconnects are probably the fastest to break in, but in all a good rule of thumb is 5-6 days of heavy use for cables,
a little more for the digital cables or particularly heavy gauge cables.

Regards,

Grant

And I bet it's different between a digital Coaxial, Optical, Optical Glass, BNC, AES/EBU, USB, and a digital HDMI cable?

[GrantS]

I have always been a fan of alliteration, so maybe 'molecular movement' is more apt. As in 'minimum molecular movement makes music more magnificent'. :)

Ok that's priceless. I'm stealing it… :)

[NorthStar]

... For cables break-in/warm-up is not nearly as well understood, so controversy usually follows such discussions on the internet. That's why I'm not sure its a great idea to import and post cable "break-in" posts from other forums without any context. It tends to invite argument, off topic comments and incivility from my experience.

...

Grant

I see, and I agree (not in all circumstances though; it depends). I couldn't assume that all members here would read only that single post, when I also indicated to check other posts from the next page (ten of them).
...And when people are truly interested in an audio subject it is well conceivable and probable that they'll get into the heart of the matter, by reading some more, for the full context, as you just said.

My intention was of positiveness and educational information, genuinely well intended.
And I appreciate what you just said above because that's going to help me at improving my posting sometimes. :)

[BlueFox]

Ok that's priceless. I'm stealing it… :)


Feel free. However, a Typhon and short Anaconda umbilical would be nice for Xmas. :)

[socfan12]

Great thread. Thanks for the insight, Grant. :scholar:

[Mikado463]

Companies that make Digital products such as Bel Canto and DCS have long advocated warm-up of the DAC/CD/Clock devices. John Stronzer of Bel Canto or David Steven of DCS could explain it some detail, but in general it has to do with the DAC's stabilizing after having been off for any length of time.

Ok, perhaps, but multiples of hours I can't buy into.




With Tube amps, the guys at ARC, VAC, LAMM, Atmasphere, VTL and others would explain thermal issues and tubes coming to balance.

Now this is completely understood and accepted


Any number of solid-state electronics engineers have explained why the warm-up of their transformers for several hours is important before critical listening.

Again, understanding the stabilization aspect aside, I'm willing to wager that when the phrase 'critical listening' is used in our audiophile world that a large percentage of those folks are more concerned with their equipment than the actual music. Grant, my rebuttal is not a 'flame' against you rather a reaction / observation and understanding of a life long love evolvement in music and it's enjoyable reproduction.

keep your contributions coming…….it's all good ! :)

[NorthStar]

Yes Grant, please post any thought and audio experiences you feel to share with us; we don't bite, or our bite is very friendly, always. :)

I started this thread mainly because I love everything I'm reading from Caelin, and owner's comments of Shunyata Research's products.
It has a 'sound' value/solidity to it all. ...The support you guys bring to your products are essential to us for getting the full benefits.

[NorthStar]

I have two questions:

1. What is going on within the power cord that is producing the beneficial sound effect from "break-in"?

2. Why do cables sound different when touching carpets or curtains?

[Mikado463]

I have two questions:

1. What is going on within the power cord that is producing the beneficial sound effect from "break-in"?

2. Why do cables sound different when touching carpets or curtains?

Bob, do you believe in psychoacoustics ?

[BlueFox]

I have two questions:

1. What is going on within the power cord that is producing the beneficial sound effect from "break-in"?

2. Why do cables sound different when touching carpets or curtains?


One of my favorite comedy movies is Captain Ron, with Kurt Russell and Martin Short. In one scene Captain Ron (Kurt Russell) is starting the Diesel engine, and he says 'Diesels go thru oil like a sailor goes thru rum.' At this, Martin Short replies, 'Yes. Why is that Captain Ron?' And Captain Ron says, "Nobody knows."

That is the answer to your questions.

[NorthStar]

Bob, do you believe in psychoacoustics ?

Yes. --- Psychoacoustics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoacoustics)


One of my favorite comedy movies is Captain Ron, with Kurt Russell and Martin Short. In one scene Captain Ron (Kurt Russell) is starting the Diesel engine, and he says 'Diesels go thru oil like a sailor goes thru rum.' At this, Martin Short replies, 'Yes. Why is that Captain Ron?' And Captain Ron says, "Nobody knows."

That is the answer to your questions.

Actually the answer of question #1 can be found in post #1.

As for question #2, I just don't know, yet. :)

[Mikado463]

As for question #2, I just don't know, yet. :)

unless it can be proven in a controlled DBT….you can't ! , remember Bob, you believe in psychoacoustics !

[GrantS]

I have two questions:

1. What is going on within the power cord that is producing the beneficial sound effect from "break-in"?

2. Why do cables sound different when touching carpets or curtains?

As I stated before, I don't feel belaboring topics like these is great idea here, or in most forums on the internet. If you have great personal interest in these topics, you are always free to contact us directly, or read Caelin's published patents, one of which goes into some detail on question #2.

The answer to the first question was included in the original post you imported, so not sure why you are repeating it.

The answer to your second post can be found in our published patent for the DFE products. I have used some of the information from our web to answer your question.

It is generally accepted that a field of static energy exists along carpeted floors and other household furnishings (Draperies, Furniture etc). Electrical and signal carrying wire also radiates a field of its own energy; for power cords this would be an EM field. Over a period of time a static differential can build-up. This differential can become enormous -- sometimes exceeding tens of thousands of volts. When an electrical signal is sent through the cable, the signal can become distorted or inter-modulated by the static electrical field differential between the cable and floor. This effect is similar to sending an electrical signal through a wire that passes through a powerful magnetic field. The distortion that results is quite audible with any quality entertainment system.

If you have further interest, I suggest sending us an e-mail or call our factory number.

Thank you.

Grant
Shunyata Research

[Mike]

I don't think we can measure everything we can hear. Maybe in 20 or 50 years. Who knows? I know that sounds odd, but there are things we just can't explain or measure, but we can hear the difference. Some may argue placebo affect.

[Mike]

Thank you Grant. What are some effective ways to minimize static differential?

[NorthStar]

As I stated before, I don't feel belaboring topics like these is great idea here, or in most forums on the internet. If you have great personal interest in these topics, you are always free to contact us directly, or read Caelin's published patents, one of which goes into some detail on question #2.

I respectfully disagree with you Grant. Having open discussions on audio forums about cables is good for the brain, good for the information, good for the education.


The answer to the first question was included in the original post you imported, so not sure why you are repeating it.

And yet you made a remark before regarding that ditto post of mine. ...And that exact same reference link was used by Caelin Gabriel himself.


The answer to your second post can be found in our published patent for the DFE products. I have used some of the information from our web to answer your question.



It is generally accepted that a field of static energy exists along carpeted floors and other household furnishings (Draperies, Furniture etc). Electrical and signal carrying wire also radiates a field of its own energy; for power cords this would be an EM field. Over a period of time a static differential can build-up. This differential can become enormous -- sometimes exceeding tens of thousands of volts. When an electrical signal is sent through the cable, the signal can become distorted or inter-modulated by the static electrical field differential between the cable and floor. This effect is similar to sending an electrical signal through a wire that passes through a powerful magnetic field. The distortion that results is quite audible with any quality entertainment system.

If you have further interest, I suggest sending us an e-mail or call our factory number.

Thank you.

Grant
Shunyata Research

Thank you.

* Open public audio forums are a great place to get educated.
That is one of the reasons we're here, just like you are here and that we're having a discussion.

P.S. I'm glad Grant that you took my questions seriously, because they both were.
Not everyone can see the way you see and hear and read.

[Mikado463]

I respectfully disagree with you Grant. Having open discussions on audio forums about cables is good for the brain, good for the information, good for the education.

I concur ……….:scholar:

[NorthStar]

unless it can be proven in a controlled DBT….you can't ! , remember Bob, you believe in psychoacoustics !

See post #55 Dave. :) ... "It is generally accepted ... any quality entertainment system."

[NorthStar]

Grant, what audio forums are good for? ...Or aren't good for?

[Mike]

You guys do realize I work hard to invite and attract those in the industry to participate on our forum in order to educate us and answer our questions. You say you disagree, but you don't show any supporting measurements or studies either.

Suffice it to say, Caelin and Grant know a heck of a lot more about AC and DC cabling than any of us do. They live and breath this stuff for a living and they have said - they can't explain everything we hear - but it is generally accepted that breaking in a cable has positive sonic attributes and that has been my experience as well.

Thank you for your patience Grant.

[GrantS]

unless it can be proven in a controlled DBT….you can't ! , remember Bob, you believe in psychoacoustics !

Like I said, these topics don't really lead to productive dialogue in chat forums. I've never witnessed a successful DBT executed in on an internet hobby forum. It's the go-to cliche' of these topics.

If you take this to the logical extreme and published a successful DBT result by independent, accredited scientists--costing thousands; that result would only be refuted by armchair pundits and lead to more forum debate, to the delight of some. I usually see people posting images of popcorn popping when these topics are raised.

If people have legitimate interest in the science of anything we do, there is a lot of information on our web and in Caelin's published patents. We're also available to answer questions if you take the time to call. Not many call, but we get quite a few "prove it to me in 1000 words or less" questions on the internet. Some look to be entertained, while others enjoy on-line argument. Our experience tells us that these debates don't lead to a productive end because most on either side of the argument have already come to their own conclusions, either through their own experience, or the lack of it.

Regards,

Grant
Shunyata Research

[Mike]

Well said Grant.

[NorthStar]

Mike, I think that you are misinterpreting my involvement on this passionate subject.

Please, see my disagreement again; relating to.

We are intelligent people here among other intelligent people; so why Grant is saying that those topics shouldn't be publicly discussed on audio forums of the internet?
If we can find the answers to all our audio questions directly with the audio manufacturers, on their websites (or blogs), what good is it to have open audio discussions?

What is the Internet good for?

[Mike]

so why Grant is saying that those topics shouldn't be publicly discussed on audio forums of the internet?


Because they don't lead anywhere. He outlined their belief and experiences as to cable burn in. He explained they can't measure everything. But still - people insist on arguing. What's the point? You can't disprove it either. If your experiences are different - fine. But otherwise we are just going in circles.

[NorthStar]

With all due respect Grant, I don't understand why you are so (I just don't know the proper word), regarding open questions and answers and discussions?

Is there a particular type of question that we should ask on open public audio forums of the internet?
Please, enlighten me because I'm a little at lost.

* I'm reading all the posts posted by Caelin Gabriel on open public forums, and even less open public ones.
What is important for me is the direct interaction between people asking questions for all to see, and the replies from the experts.
I learn way more effectively that way. Am I wrong in my deduction? ...I've been reading audio articles and reviews and all that jazz for over 45 years, and I know what's good for me, and what's better. ...And I don't feel alone.

[GrantS]

I respectfully disagree with you Grant. Having open discussions on audio forums about cables is good for the brain, good for the information, good for the education.



And yet you made a remark before regarding that ditto post of mine. ...And that exact same reference link was used by Caelin Gabriel himself.



Thank you.

* Open public audio forums are a great place to get educated.
That is one of the reasons we're here, just like you are here and that we're having a discussion.

P.S. I'm glad Grant that you took my questions seriously, because they both were.
Not everyone can see the way you see and hear and read.

The first question was asked and answered. I did answer the second, though the information is publicly available and on our web-site. I've read your posted references to asking sincere questions out of genuine interest and a quest for knowledge, but this is starting to look more like a one-man inquisition and less like a conversation to me, Bob.

Grant
Shunyata Research

[MDP]

Ok Bob, enough is enough !! If you don't believe as others , state your point and move on. We invite manufacturers to come here and state their experiences. We welcome them.

If you don't have anything positive to add, state your belief and let it go.

Thanks