Top Tier Amps

Kuoppis said:
How about this: No Boulder product on the latest Stereophile recommended A list, but the new Classé Delta Monos are?


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One word: advertising


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KeithR said:
maybe based on cost, but I really think amps come down to circuit and speaker match moreso than other components. for instance, Ayre on the right speaker sounds better than amps with tons of negative feedback like Soulution/Audionet to my ears. super duper 1000w SS behemoths don't sound good on horns. in tubeland, same problem - many would argue SET sounds better than any of the massed tetrode amps from the big 3.

i also think there are very few good SS amps, so there's that.

ps. I just read that Halcro's back lol
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+1

Amp+ Speaker synergy can make or break a system.
 
apdoc2004 said:
Mike,
Interesting list. I am in no way challenging your conclusions -- after all you have by far the most experience in terms of actual detailed audition of electronics from top notch brands and at the end of the day, this is a subjective list. I just have a couple of comments. First of all, in my opinion, some of this is driven by the advertising and the "reputation" of various brands. If it is a boutique manufacturer coming out of a small European company, it must be great -- case in point is CH Precision. I do not have much of an opinion on it since I have only heard their electronics once at RMAF but you have commented on more than 1 occasion that you think the sound is too dry and analytical. Yet, you still put the brand in Tier 1.
The second pertains to Accuphase -- we all rag on Accuphase because of the crazy US pricing strategy by the distributor (I would include myself in that category) but I have been amazed by my Accuphase A70 amp and would feel confident in putting it up against any brand on this list (not in terms of sheer power but for quality of sound). If there was a way you could have the top of the line Accupase A250 monoblocks in your store, I would be curious to see where you put them.

Anshul
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Agree strongly with this post, particularly as to Accuphase. Also agree with other posts that the key thing is synergy with the rest of the system. Without that, one might have Secretariat hooked to a donkey cart ....


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Mike said:
One word: advertising


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I think it was stated here before, you must admit the list looks more like price tiers list than a an actual SQ tiers list.

Anyhow I’m not sure I agree with the tiers list. Besides, MSB advertises a lots in Stereophile, but yet they’re nowhere to be found. Classé does not, and still their Delta Monos are rated class A. So the advertising point does not really appear to apply.


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Kuoppis said:
I think it was stated here before, you must admit the list looks more like price tiers list than a an actual SQ tiers list.

Anyhow I’m not sure I agree with the tiers list. Besides, MSB advertises a lots in Stereophile, but yet they’re nowhere to be found. Classé does not, and still their Delta Monos are rated class A. So the advertising point does not really appear to apply.


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As I said, I’m thinking price and perception.


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It's about perception and MBL is tier 2? Really?

:shocking:

My perception is that Nagra is definitely, definitely, definitely tier 1... and Gryphon would be tier 2...

We all have a voice, don't we?

:roflmao:
 
SimpleSimonSays said:
It's about perception and MBL is tier 2? Really?

:shocking:

My perception is that Nagra is definitely, definitely, definitely tier 1... and Gryphon would be tier 2...

We all have a voice, don't we?

:roflmao:
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Interesting. Hey, I love my amps, but they are solid tier 2 IMO.



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SimpleSimonSays said:
It's about perception and MBL is tier 2? Really?

:shocking:

My perception is that Nagra is definitely, definitely, definitely tier 1... and Gryphon would be tier 2...

We all have a voice, don't we?

:roflmao:
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Would anyone buy MBL amps outside a MBL system?
 
When I was younger MBL and Burmester we're the two big über expensive prestige brands from Germany... The type of gear you saw in those very grown up Park Avenue type apartments... Gold and chrome and mahogany... Not my thing at all but that was what luxury was back then so I guess my tier 1 perception of MBL comes from there!

;)
 
If you only need 30 watts or less per channel this whole tier thing changes. I guess we need another thread for the "sweet" amps....lol.
 
Mike said:
As I said, I’m thinking price and perception.


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Ok, there it is. Now that changes things.

So, you say this is a list based on price and perception. Products being more expensive are more highly regarded. As simple as that. Fair enough.

What would be interesting though, is a list based on performance and value. Then the most interesting components are the category killers IMHO. I.e. products that punch above their price point.


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Mike said:
The marketplace for top tier amps is more crowded than ever with newcomers like Pillium, Block and others.

What are your thoughts on the current amp market?

Will we see a resurgence from brands like Ayre, Accustic Arts (an amp/preamp I had in the store and was floored by their performance) or Zanden or Ypsilon?

Will we see newcomers like Block and others gaining interest or will the stranglehold from the big boys continue to hold?
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Back to the original question...

While a tier listing will always be contentious, as the truth is in the eyes or the ears of the beholder, a different question is how the market will evolve.

A general take from an economic point of view is, that usually in a constrained market (Covid induced depression) people tend to stick to their guns. I.e. are looking for already established value positions. That would would in principle speak for established players.

However, the same effect creates room for challengers focusing on performance-based value. I.e. people are looking for better offers from either established players or challengers. But then again new entrants will struggle to establish a reputation. This creates an opportunity space for renewal at established players.

One approach is looking at the market from price & perception point of view like Mike did. But a ranking/ tier list Is always subjective and hence difficult. Another perspective would be looking at established and new players from a performance & value point of view.

This is just an excerpt of selected players’ performance and value positions from personal experience perspective (I do not have a comprehensive view):

Traditionals:
- Constellation: Highly acclaimed sound performance, but products don’t move and hence prices have strongly deteriorated - performance ++/ value - -
- Boulder: Acclaimed, but also partly perceived dry, very high price points prohibitive for most of the market, some demo units highly discounted - performance +/ value -
- Gryphon: Acclaimed sound, particularly in class A biased models, but design is an acquired taste and price points are very high - performance +/ value -
- CH & Spectral: Very highly acclaimed sound for those who like it, but it’s an acquired taste, CH keeps innovating while Spectral is pretty much dead, esp. CH with prohibitively high price points - performance (+)(+)/ value +/-
- Pass: Solid performers throughout the range, continuous innovation, but not the leader in any area - performance +/ value +
- Dart: Top performers in highest tier, but on integrated level only average, prohibitive price points for anyone - performance ++/ value +
- Soulution: Highly acclaimed, while too dry for some, great first years, but little innovation in nearly a decade and prices deteriorating strongly - performance ++/ value -
- MBL: High-end bling bling golden rims etc, strictly system play - performance +/ value +/-
- T+A: Keep innovating, full product range, but never quite the best-of-the-best, reputation problem - performance +/- / value +/-
- Dag: High priced, high performing, a bit blingy design - performance ++/ value +
- ARC & Octave: Do have their following with toob aficionados, but need to keep all focus on getting tubes to perform appropriately - performance +/ value -

Movers & shakers:
- Classé (superb value with high performance): For me one of the current top value providers, almost mere hi-fi heritage. But with the new Delta series shifting from high power to high current on high impedance level, and achieving really good results - performance +/ value +++
- AudioNet (superb performance with relatively high value): Breaking new ground with the scientist series, but like CH, Spectral you need to like the sound signature (previous gen. very different), and accept rather high price points - performance +++/ value +

Also ran:
- AVM, ASR, Accustic Arts, VTL, Bryston, SimAudio, Naim, Ayre, Hegel, Macintosh, Symphonic Line, Aavik, Parasound, Bel Canto, Wyred, Cambridge, NAD (and a lots of others I’m not interested in either)


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