Thread: Ultrasonic Record Cleaners ???

Originally Posted by Dre_J

Hi Mark, Yes they are good and more convenient in terms of use or time-on-task...


Yes. For additional review information, I discuss the Klaudio's (KD-CLN-LP200) functionality specifically in this month's October 2014 edition of The Absolute Sound (TAS 246).

I have the Klaudio which I would have chosen between the two but I can see some others choosing the Audio Desk Vinyl Cleaner. If you have friends with both, why not try them out and pick the one you personally prefer?

Hope this helps,
Dre

Dre, that was a great review you wrote in The Absolute Sound in the October edition, on the Klaudio !

Originally Posted by MusicDirector

I've recently been thinking about that. I'm not in need of doing that at this point, but I also think that it may not be universally necessary. I think it does depend on your environment, but still kind of hard to say for certain. My current environment gets dusty quick, but that's about it mostly, not a whole lot of other contaminates mixed in that are sticky or make the dust stickier. That said though there is much we don't see and I used to live in a house where there was dust, cooking particles from a gas kitchen and a heavy smoker and pets. That is pretty much every bad thing that can land on a record and stick in the grooves just in the amount of time it takes to take it out of the sleeve.
In such an environment I can see benefit of running one's records through a cleaning every 10 to 20 plays.

Micheal Fremer says one should only have to clean a record once and then just use a carbon fiber brush to dust it before play. I find that to mostly be the case for me in my environment currently, but again, I don't think that is universally true and I think that is completely dependent on one's environment.

Agreed.

Another thing to think about is humidity. Some record sleeves may actually "seal" the record in as opposed to letting it breathe and thus promote the growth of fungus and bacteria in the grooves. That's one reason I liked Todd Garfinkle's record sleeves.

Another alternative.

Record Genie Dave Burton

Just a follow up on the mold issue with LPs. From the following piece.

Paper sleeves are also hygroscopic (water absorbing) and as a consequence facilitate the growth of mold or fungus on the LP. Older audiophiles may remember the original Discwasher record cleaning fluid that used sodium azide to kill and remove these organisms from the record grooves. (Sodium azide was, unfortunately, removed from the market several years later when it was found to react with copper pipes and cause explosions.) As we know from early enzyme based record cleaning fluids from Buggtussel and more recent products from Audio Intelligent and Walker Audio, not to mention two newly released items from Mobile Fidelity and Musical Surroundings, microorganisms lurking in the record grooves contribute to the record's background noise and the occurrence of pops and tics. These various organisms, according to Dr. Bruce Maier, founder of Discwasher, "produce vinyl etching enzymes." (see BAS, vol.3, no. 10, 1975.) Paper sleeves also contain and shed debris that is trapped by "sticky" record mold release compounds. (Note, other particles can also be trapped–and that's a compelling reason to clean brand new LPs.) Glassine paper is no better than ordinary paper because of its hygroscopic properties.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue38/lp_sleaves.htm

This was a followup piece on Todd Garfinkle's new LP inner sleeve.

MA Record Sleeves

Bottom line is where you place your LPs after cleaning is very important too!

Thanks for the link and review Myles. I think I will order some to try !

Originally Posted by highEndguy

Pssss.
I'm going to say it very low key.....
The KLAUDIO is much better than the AudioDesk

Hahahaha

Which one do you sell Nelson? 😃

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Originally Posted by dlb2

Which one do you sell Nelson?

Sent from my HTC One.

So would a bio-enzyme additive as used by the Audiodesk offer some further anti-fungal growth protection for vinyl whilst in storage where RH & temperature is higher?

That's a good question Steve.

Fungal mould is the biggest & deadliest vinyl killer & it can spread throughout your collection. Even microscopic spores will lead to damage. RH % is not such a problem in Melbourne provided there is no persistent damp storage environment to begin with.

Of course there is a risk of spores spreading across washes with contaminated water. Filtration would help some & you would hope that ultrasonics would neutralise anything floating in the water. I would be very happy to live with minute traces of bi-enzyme residue on my washed & dried records if I knew that such traces were working as a protective barrier against potential fungal mould growth when in storage.

When it comes to vinyl, no doubt I'm a paranoid vinyl Nazi with a systematic regime.

I wash new vinyl & re-sleeve with new MoFi inner sleeves before any play. After each play, I wash & use the new sleeve. I never sleeve a played record. That's why I bought the Audiodesk & a stack of consumables before getting back into vinyl & investing heavily into the medium & associated playback equipment.

I'm inclined to think that a bio-enzyme additive will help to disinfect the water & help to maintain machine tanked water purity levels longer. If there is a chemist with an Audiodesk and/or Klaudio, please run some extended water quality tests & post your results. Most of us, store our units filled with water, top up on evaporation & change the water periodically after x washes.

Originally Posted by MusicDirector

Heat is not much to worry about unless it's enough to warp or comes with high RH. High RH even at room temp is a concern. Ultrasonics don't really neutralize anything, but does lead to breaking up, dissolving and removing most contaminants from your records. Using enzyme cleaners helps in attacking any protein-based contaminants and neutralizing fungal mold as would some sort of anti fungal mold growth protectant. (Although I don't know of anything that would be good to use on records off hand. I don't know that products like GrooveGlide provide that sort of protection and personally I would not use such a product as it does more harm to your stylus than it helps your records in any way. Perhaps someone here knows of something).

I think the best defense is making sure rinse water is nice and clean and using proper inner sleeves and where you store your records. I don't think the ultrasonic RCMs have a rinse cycle with separate water, do they? Of course, it's not really needed with the first 2 or 3 records, but after that I can well hypothesize that lighter contaminants that don't dissolve, such as spores could be floating around in the tank. I'm thinking one can change out the water of the RCM every 3 or 4 records, but that could be a PITA depending on how easy it is to do on any particular machine.
If the RCM has a good strong vacuum though, that should take care of anything not actually stuck to the record. Blow-drying and especially room air-drying (as in setting in a dish-rack or something) would not be as effective against spores as vacuuming. With blow-drying there is potential that the spores would still be floating in the air after being blown off. Of course, room air-drying has obvious draw-backs even to the casual observer. Not to illicit paranoia or something, but remember, just taking a record in and out of a sleeve to play it exposes it to having spores and other contaminants land on it. Of course, that's why we have carbon fiber brushes and such.

If RH is of concern, you could use the inner sleeves Myles suggested, otherwise you should not have much to worry about depending on where you store your records.

Don't store your records near any heat source of course and not in any areas that are prone to dampness (even a little), such as basements (unless it's a finished basement turned into a man-cave or something with climate control and all that), etc. Do not store near windows either.

Just my 2 cents.

Sonic action will disrupt any bacterum or fungus and kill it so no need for additives there. Adding anything else to the surface will affect the sound of the record.

Originally Posted by MusicDirector

Was not aware that sonic action could do that. Makes me wonder why they don't use it more in medical procedures.
Yes, adding anything to the surface of a record is a no-no, that's why I recommend against products like GruvGlide and anything else like it. It not only effects the sound, but can potentially do harm to both the record and the cartridge.

US can be used to sterilize but there are more effective means.

But US is often used by biochemists to rupture cells and release the internal contents as say for doing enzymatic studies.

It's not necessarily how well RCFs work but what they leave behind that matters. Just as the issue with with vacuum machines is hydrodynamics. In other words, as the amount of fluid on the record decreases, the surface tension increases. So records cleaned with machines like the VPI Typhoon with big vacuum motors sound better eg. quieter, more transparent, etc. Of course one does have to be careful with high vacuum motors not to pull the plasticizer out of the record.

It's only a hypothesis but the sonic differences between the Audio Deske and KLaudio may simply be due to the AD's use of a surfactant in the water. IIRC correctly, MikeL commented somewhere that some people had actually reduced the amount of AD additive being added to the water.

Originally Posted by MusicDirector

I know US is also used for things like kidney stones, but that's all I'm aware of and that is not the effect we are talking about. I suppose there may be safety considerations regarding certain organs in the body as well if US was to be applied in such a way. You know, sure it killed the bad bacteria and all, but also killed the patient. Not the outcome we were looking for.

Lithotripsy is "super" ultrasound. Also sometimes used to treat tennis elbow etc.

Originally Posted by Bobvin

I wonder if this "fat" is what I have occasionally found on the surface of my new LPs that had a trip through the KLaudio? I mentioned I think in another thread. I occasionally find some small gobs of goo on the surface that did not exist when the new record went into the machine. I've had to use an enzyme cleaner to remove these, with a fair amount of scrubbing with a microfiber cloth.

I didn't know mold-release compound included a "fat" but it makes sense.

Maybe Miles can comment, he's the vinyl guru?

As I remember, there are some stearates in the vinyl mix. Mold release is always described as a type of PAM. As I understand it, it's not sprayed on but part of the plastic mix.

What I found with some cartridges, most notably the Atlas, is that there is a buildup of gunk on the stylus after playing. Noted the same thing with the Audio Deske too.

So how often do owners of the Audiodesk & Klaudio change their water?

I have had water in the Audiodesk for approx. 1 month, no smells or apparent nasties.
Even the rollers were still moist. I pulled them to check & they were as clean as a whistle. I have perspex cover on it with spacers, so it breathes & would evaporate very slowly. The unit sits in an Ikea Besta unit ready to be turned on & used. The doors show no condensation marks. I fired it up & ran a blank cycle just to recirculate the water.

Every 100 cleans/cycles. I keep a log (pad of paper and check marks).


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Originally Posted by Steve

When it comes to vinyl, no doubt I'm a paranoid vinyl Nazi with a systematic regime.

I wash new vinyl & re-sleeve with new MoFi inner sleeves before any play. After each play, I wash & use the new sleeve. I never sleeve a played record. That's why I bought the Audiodesk & a stack of consumables before getting back into vinyl & investing heavily into the medium & associated playback equipment.

I'm inclined to think that a bio-enzyme additive will help to disinfect the water & help to maintain machine tanked water purity levels longer. If there is a chemist with an Audiodesk and/or Klaudio, please run some extended water quality tests & post your results. Most of us, store our units filled with water, top up on evaporation & change the water periodically after x washes.

Steve, I think you are sounding a little paranoid about problems that don't really exist

I have been buying records for over 30 years now and only got an RCM probably 15 years ago. All my records from 20 and 30 years ago are still perfect, after many hundreds of plays.

The number one preventative maintenance I have always used is to have every lp in a plastic/poly lined inner sleeve. This protects your precious vinyl from everything - Period.

If you feel the need to buy more expensive mofi or whatever inner sleeves, knock yourself out, but they do exactly the same job as the cheap round bottomed plastic inners.

Having a RCM or US RCM really is cream, not necessary but hard to live without once you have experienced them.

Cheers

My Klaudio US cleaner is on it's way to me, delivery scheduled for next Tuesday

Congrats Mark!


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Originally Posted by MDP

My Klaudio US cleaner is on it's way to me, delivery scheduled for next Tuesday

Wow!!!
Fast dealer you have

Good news Mark. Maybe you'll like it so much that you'll clean the record when you go to flip it over. 😃

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Originally Posted by highEndguy

Wow!!!
Fast dealer you have

Yes you are !!

Originally Posted by dlb2

Good news Mark. Maybe you'll like it so much that you'll clean the record when you go to flip it over. ��

Sent from my HTC One.

I need all the exercise I can get

Thanks Doug !

Thanks Mike !

Originally Posted by MDP

Yes you are !!

Congrats Mark! Please post your experiences.

Originally Posted by XV-1

Steve, I think you are sounding a little paranoid about problems that don't really exist

I have been buying records for over 30 years now and only got an RCM probably 15 years ago. All my records from 20 and 30 years ago are still perfect, after many hundreds of plays.

The number one preventative maintenance I have always used is to have every lp in a plastic/poly lined inner sleeve. This protects your precious vinyl from everything - Period.

Cheers

Yeah, you're probably right. I only use one new MoFI sleeve per record, as they go back in washed.

My paranoia stems from 2 small gifted collections that were fungal ridden. One was from a house in a rainforest up in the Dandenong ranges. The other was from my ex wife! Both were duly disposed of.

Originally Posted by Steve

Congrats Mark! Please post your experiences.

Thanks Steve, I'll let you know how I like it.

yes mark please let us know. im borrowing an audio desk for a couple weeks to try. i got to be honest and say i cut it out of the box brand new yesterday at the show and though it was very cheap feeling for a $3000 machine. but ill know better after i get it here and try it next week. so id be curious to your experiences with the klaudio. its about time i stepped up from the spin clean.lol.
congrats !!!!

Originally Posted by Steve

Yeah, you're probably right. I only use one new MoFI sleeve per record, as they go back in washed.

My paranoia stems from 2 small gifted collections that were fungal ridden. One was from a house in a rainforest up in the Dandenong ranges. The other was from my ex wife! Both were duly disposed of.

With US RCM you probably could have cleaned them up.

Its a lot better to be obsessive about caring about vinyl than not, so all good.

Originally Posted by Steve

Yeah, you're probably right. I only use one new MoFI sleeve per record, as they go back in washed.

My paranoia stems from 2 small gifted collections that were fungal ridden. One was from a house in a rainforest up in the Dandenong ranges. The other was from my ex wife! Both were duly disposed of.

What were "both were duly disposed of?" The two record collections or the second collection and your ex-wife? "Enquiring" minds want to know. :-)

Larry

Originally Posted by astrotoy

What were "both were duly disposed of?" The two record collections or the second collection and your ex-wife? "Enquiring" minds want to know. :-)

Larry

The crappy sleeves.


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Originally Posted by astrotoy

What were "both were duly disposed of?" The two record collections or the second collection and your ex-wife? "Enquiring" minds want to know. :-)

Larry

Ha! When the new lady came along, she inquired about the mound of dirt in the backyard. The mound looked like a grave. I told her "not to worry because 'she' is long gone, already a skeleton. Jack (my dog) dug part of an arm out, I'm always chucking dirt over it, the little digger he is....".

Out of 700, I saved approx. 100 after excluding most from a first round cleaning attempt. I have yet to play approx. 30. Vinyl condition EX or better after Audiodesk washes. Most sleeves are VG+ or better. New inner sleeves & poly/jap covers. I did my best to hang onto 60s vintage & not surprisingly the older heavy vinyl faired much better.

KLaudio Vinyl Record Ultrasonic Cleaner

Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o

Where is the cleaner that MF was talking about, when one can drop 8 records halfway into a vat and performs a similar process to the KLaudio Cleaner? I heard it was about $2K?

it was mentioned in this Youtube Video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJotc_K0LQI

narrowed the spot, the above video is an hour long.

here: http://youtu.be/hJotc_K0LQI?t=51m45s

What is your question?

Hi,

Just want to tell my experience with Audiodesk (not PRO). I wouldn't buy one again! The pump on mine broke down just 1 month after guarantee coverage finished and about 500 records cleaned. Luckily one might think, my version enabled a pump replacement as some earlier versions for some reason didn't. Instead of Audiodesk playing along with some goodwill, fully aware that plenty units have had problems, I was charged the healthy sum of 700 USD for the repair! Next time this unit will break down it will be scrapped and another non-Audiodesk unit will be looked for. Any suggestions?
It cleans ok, but even new pressings need sometimes 2 runs to be cleaned.

Not overly happy/Mike