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June 13, 2019, 03:10 AM #1
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Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
Specs of my Phono are below.I run MC cart turntable and a MM cart turntable out the same Tube Phono.The loudness of the MC is just above my regular volume.The loudness of the MM and Amp at maximum is well below my regular volume. Swapping out the Tube Phono with a borrowed solid state phono the MC and MM carts even at low volume nearly blew my speakers.I don't expect the Carts are the issue. Anyone who knows DIY Tube Phono can a part be swapped out to increase the gain on the MM ??
Thanks
Line Magnetic Audio Analog Sound AS-129P RIAA LP MM/MC VALVE PHONO STAGE
Specification
Input impedance: 100KΩ / 600Ω
PHONO EQ: RIAA, COL, NAB, FFRR, AES, LP
Output impedance: 600Ω
Sensitivity: 1V
Gain: 9.6dB
Signal to noise ratio:> 90dB
Frequency response: 10Hz ~ 20KHz ± 3dB
Total harmonic distortion: 0.3%
Volume: (W * H * D) 450 * 200 * 500 mm
Net Weight: 22Kg
Gross Weight: 24Kg
Power supply: AC 220V (+-5%) (50Hz)
working conditions: temperature 0℃~40℃ Moisture: 20% ~ 80%
storage conditions: temperature: - 20℃~70℃ Moisture: 20% ~ 90%
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June 13, 2019, 09:42 AM #2
Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
How can a phono stage only have 9.6dB of gain? Is that a mistake in the specifications?
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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June 13, 2019, 09:16 PM #3
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June 13, 2019, 10:33 PM #4
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Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
Assuming that weird 9.6dB gain listed is a misprint - sounds like it could be a loading / impedance mismatch issue. Is your loading set to the 600 ohm or 100K ohms position (listed in specs)? Or is that even a user choice? 600 ohms is fine for most MC cartridges, but no bueno for an MM with a lot of (non-moving) coil that's expecting to see 47K - you could lose a LOT of signal from the resulting voltage divider. 100K should work fine with an MM. I'd try to verify what impedance the MM cart is seeing right now.
Man, that amp has a cool aesthetic. Hope you figure out the MM side!
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June 13, 2019, 11:42 PM #5
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Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
First I suspect the 9.6 db gain is that amount over the gain of the MM section whatever that is. The 100/600 ohm choice is for when the switch on the back is flipped to the MC position and the MM switch position is probably 47 kohm as standard. The volume difference is due to the output voltages of the two cartridges being used if the MC cartridge has higher than normal output and the MM has lower than standard output like some of the early Grado's. What us the gain of the preamp in the MM position and what are the two cartridges? They are never going to be the same.
Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Jays CDT3 Mk3 , Auralic Aries G2.2, Holo May KTE, Supratek Cabernet, Kinki Studio EX-B7 monoblocks, Verity Audio Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC, SC & PC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Inakustik USB and I2S, (2) Puritan Audio Labs PSM-156 with Groundmaster City, Timbernation rack
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Greenville, SC- Jays CDT2 Mk 3, Auralic Aries G1, Holo Spring 3 KTE, Supratek Chardonnay, Odyssey Audio Kismet Reference, Rosso Fiorentino Volterra 2, (2) RSL Speedwoofers, iFi Audio Power Station, Wireworld IC's, Inakustik USB and I2s, Triode Wire Lab SC, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Furutech NCF Clear Line, Timbernation rack.
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June 14, 2019, 04:49 AM #6
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Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
MC cart is Clearaudio MC da Vinci V2 and the MM is Soundsmith Carman Mk 2 (moving Iron).Both carts volume output is much lower then if using a Solid State Phono .The only adjustment I have is the black knob .For MC it is Full then I back off so the needle gauge red lines.For MM it is turned full and the needle is low with some records barely reaching quarter way let along red line.
Later when I get my Horn speakers the Clearaudio TT will be moved and have its own Solid State Phono .The MM will be part of a full tube system.
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June 14, 2019, 10:11 AM #7
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Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
At .6 the MC is on the higher end for MC output and at just over 2 volts the MM is on the low end for MM cartridges which are generally in the 3.5 volt range.
Main - JVC QL-Y7/Denon DL-301 Mk II, Gold Note PH-10, Jays CDT3 Mk3 , Auralic Aries G2.2, Holo May KTE, Supratek Cabernet, Kinki Studio EX-B7 monoblocks, Verity Audio Otello, (2) Rythmik F12SE, Audio Envy IC, SC & PC's, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Inakustik USB and I2S, (2) Puritan Audio Labs PSM-156 with Groundmaster City, Timbernation rack
Family Room - Oppo UDP-203, Auralic Aries, Aqua La Voce S3, Kinki Studio EX-M1+, Nola KO, (2) Rythmik F-12G, Wireworld SC & IC's, Neotech PC's, SurgeX SA-1810
Greenville, SC- Jays CDT2 Mk 3, Auralic Aries G1, Holo Spring 3 KTE, Supratek Chardonnay, Odyssey Audio Kismet Reference, Rosso Fiorentino Volterra 2, (2) RSL Speedwoofers, iFi Audio Power Station, Wireworld IC's, Inakustik USB and I2s, Triode Wire Lab SC, Triode Wire Lab PC's, Furutech NCF Clear Line, Timbernation rack.
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June 14, 2019, 04:40 PM #8
Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
If that phono pre really only has 9.6dB of gain, it’s a miracle you can hear music at all.
Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.
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June 14, 2019, 05:23 PM #9
Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
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June 14, 2019, 08:17 PM #10
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June 14, 2019, 08:41 PM #11
Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
I'm not familiar with your phonostage but if possible, try a quick test.
First: Try removing the MC cartridge RCA tonearm cable connectors from the unit and just run it with the MM cartridge on the MM RCA connection input. If the signal level of the MM cartridge connection increases, the phonostage may not like both cartridges connected simultaneously.
Second: Try removing the MM cartridge RCA tonearm cable connectors from the unit and just run it with the MC cartridge on the MC RCA connection input. If the signal leve of the MC cartridge connection increases, the phonostage may not like both cartridges connected simultaneously.
If both cases are true, the unit may not be situated for both MM and MC inputs to be connected at the same time.
As mentioned above, I'm not familiar with the phonostage but with the limited information I have seen, this test is worth a try.
Dre
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June 14, 2019, 10:18 PM #12
Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
I will defer to Dre every time when it comes to trouble shooting, his input is always tactful and objective.
my two cents--and don't take this the wrong way--im not slagging Stump's system or choices in gear. From my experience with WE reproductions and similar gear based on designs from the '30s-40s you cant stray from the WE system approach. Their components are gain matched with speakers >100 db of sensitivity and amplifiers with very high input sensitivity (by today's standards). You insert a single component based on a vintage WE design into a 'modern' system and you will have gain miss matches all over the place. 9.6 db of phono gain by yesteryear's standard is not compatible today. The AS-129P has SUTs and its still shy in gain, that should tell you something.
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June 14, 2019, 11:31 PM #13
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Re: Tube Phono Stage MC MM not happy with the loudness of the MM
Thanks Dre ,I have given your suggestion a try but made no difference.Puroagave can I add a SUT? What you have said is %100 given my situation.Before I bought this Phono I discussed with the dealer the gain was too low.He also agreed it was too low and he put the question to the manufacture and they came back saying similar to your quote "WE reproductions and similar gear based on designs from the '30s-40s you cant stray from the WE system approach." I still went ahead with the buy as I am putting together a complete Line magnetic retro system which will have the Horn speakers >100 db.
My original question was if it was a simple mod to increase gain! If not once it is set up with the horn speakers it should be loud enough...
Thanks for the input..
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
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