Thread: Tubes are needed.

There is no doubt that tubes add an organic dimension to our systems. And what I love most about tube gear is that you don't have to spend an arm and a leg to get incredible sound. IMO, generally speaking, tube gear offers much better sonic value than SS gear. The PrimaLuna HP is a PERFECT example.

What I have found with my Pass XS gear however, is that I've become addicted to dead quiet/black black backgrounds. When I turn on my tube phono or tube pre, I can hear the noise they add.

This isn't to say black grounds can't be had with tube gear. What really impressed me about Paul's Shindo gear was just how quiet it was.

That being said, prior to my Pass XS gear, I would whole heartily agree that tubes are needed - somewhere. I feel the Pass gear gives me real SET tube like qualities....and if you read Nelson's writings on them - that was his intent.


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I can't even watch TV anymore without TUBES !!!

Surround sound driven by tube amplification is a magical experience. Those TV commercial jingles pushed through tube pre and power amps will pacify any Demolition Man.

There is just no point in living without tubes.

Originally Posted by bzr

I have come to the conclusion that I absolutely dislike my system without some tubes in the amplification, be it pre or power. At the moment I have on loan a ss amp while my tube integrated amp arrives & I must say this is really surprising for me as in how much I am missing the PrimaLuna Dialogue HP that I had in bypass mode with my Soulution 520 preamp. It's like a dimension has been taken from the soundstage.
Any similar accounts?

Now you sounds like my kind of man.

Regardless how good SS or Tube they can NOT be replaced. Tube is Tube and SS is SS. All have pros and cons .

Originally Posted by Steve

There is just no point in living without tubes.

Hilarious!

Originally Posted by bzr

I have come to the conclusion that I absolutely dislike my system without some tubes in the amplification, be it pre or power. At the moment I have on loan a ss amp while my tube integrated amp arrives & I must say this is really surprising for me as in how much I am missing the PrimaLuna Dialogue HP that I had in bypass mode with my Soulution 520 preamp. It's like a dimension has been taken from the soundstage.
Any similar accounts?

David Wilson said the same thing many years ago. "You have to have tubes somewhere in the audio chain."

I have it in the source, but as you guys keep raving, I went out and scored a refurbed Leak Stereo 20 power amp with vintage Barn tubes (EL84 and ECC83). Mixture of Mullards and Phillips (perhaps better than Mulls for the 84s) and Tungsram /Mull/Phillips (delta code) Ecc83. I got some kind of Czech SS passive pre and some Linn Index monitors. All for a good package price from a fellow local audiopjhile who threw in 10 near mint Sound practices magazines for good measure. I figured why not since I nigh cleaned out the Barn for these tube types, hand picking the best ones by sight (used tubes, so some will be bad for sure) but the amp came with 2 sets of tubes anyway.

Winson...Very cool. Wish I could find such a barn down under. I bet there's still one or two barns left in Germany and Austria.

Thanks Steve,

I am sure(Germany/Austria), BUT, a French Barn may even be better. French tubes are often GREAT and relatively unknown outside of France. Good thing a buddy pointed me to the ones to look out for. Unfortunately, CH is way more aligned to Germany and Holland for tubes, as the Barn barely had any French tubes. The Barn is loaded mostly with Phillips, Siemens, Tungsram and Telefunken...or should I say was, as recently he has been picked clean of the most demanded stuff.

Originally Posted by Mike

There is no doubt that tubes add an organic dimension to our systems. And what I love most about tube gear is that you don't have to spend an arm and a leg to get incredible sound. IMO, generally speaking, tube gear offers much better sonic value than SS gear. The PrimaLuna HP is a PERFECT example.

What I have found with my Pass XS gear however, is that I've become addicted to dead quiet/black black backgrounds. When I turn on my tube phono or tube pre, I can hear the noise they add.

This isn't to say black grounds can't be had with tube gear. What really impressed me about Paul's Shindo gear was just how quiet it was.

That being said, prior to my Pass XS gear, I would whole heartily agree that tubes are needed - somewhere. I feel the Pass gear gives me real SET tube like qualities....and if you read Nelson's writings on them - that was his intent.


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I'm going to come back to what I bolded in a minute or two. At one time, I had over 50 tubes in my system and there were days I felt like every single one of them was working me. I'm not going to regale everyone with my little shop of tube horrors, but suffice to say I ended up getting "mad" at tubes and decided to sell off all of my tube gear except for my Ampex 350s which have never given me a moment of trouble (knock on wood). Part of my issue at the time was using a LOMC cartridge with a Counterpoint SA-2 pre-preamp into a heavily modified Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp (by the designer-Mike Elliott). You just can't have a pure tube phono signal path and a LOMC cartridge (<.3mv) and expect anything approaching really low noise.

I decided to go SS and see how low I could drive my noise floor and I can tell you I got my noise floor really, really low. And yes, it's addicting. You can hear all the different layers of the noise floor as they peel away at the end of a song and it fades into blackness. This was the first time in my audiophile life that I had a phono section, preamp, and power amp from the same company (Krell). I had always been a mix and match kind of guy previously. I no longer think it's a great idea to mix and match preamps and power amps.

So all the while that I was enjoying my SS gear and the super-low noise floor, I kept thinking that something was missing and the sound is so 'clean' that it actually becomes boring. And not because it's missing noise, just because it seems to be a little bleached out harmonically and you are missing info that simply isn't there anymore or there in the correct proportions that you are used to hearing it. But all the while, you are enjoying your black backgrounds and lack of noise. I'm pretty sure that during this time that I sent an email to Myles and told him my system was so clean and yet it was boring me.

Along came the Raven Silhouette tube monoblock amps for review and I quickly realized I couldn't live without tubes anymore. So back to Mike's statement that

When I turn on my tube phono or tube pre, I can hear the noise they add.

Quality tube line stages with good tubes should be damn quiet. Quality tube power amps shouldn't make a damn sound when music isn't playing. My ARC Ref 5SE and Ref 75 are stone quiet. Tube phono stages are never going to be as quiet as a SS phono stage. The flip side of that is that a SS phono stage is probably not going to have the harmonic complexity of a tube phono section and have quite the body and tonal density of a really good tube phono section. And having said that, I strongly prefer having a tube phono preamp that uses JFETs to drive the tube input stage in order to reduce the noise (some prefer SUTs).

Unless you just hate tube gear for whatever reason you hate tube gear (ignorance, never had them in your system, you only had tube cheap gear from your grandma, etc.), it's hard to give up their magic when you switch over to SS. You might be happy for awhile (I was), but once you realize you are bored and it finally dawns on you that you are bored because something is missing, you will be called back.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

David Wilson said the same thing many years ago. "You have to have tubes somewhere in the audio chain."

because of his bright as hell speakers back in the day?

Originally Posted by KeithR

because of his bright as hell speakers?

Are we talking about the older models with the Focal tweeters or the new models with the soft dome tweeters?

Originally Posted by puroagave

It also depends on which tube and SS phono stages we're talking about. some highly touted SS 'stages I tried recently were no quieter than a tube stage with similar gain. much rides on selecting the best tubes for low noise.

Rob-I have no idea what "highly touted SS phono stages" you are talking about, but one thing I do know is that they can't be that good in terms of S/N ratio if they have as much noise as a tube phono stage. I have been around tubes my entire life and I know that you can't send a microvolt signal to a tube and expect to hear an output signal with no noise. I used to buy AAA graded tubes from Mike Elliott which he said required rejecting 100 tubes in order to find one tube that would meet his AAA noise requirements. And quiet today doesn't mean quiet tomorrow.

Kev,

I agree that tubes are needed somewhere in a setup but it need not be all tube to appreciate the sound that tubes can bring. Though I'd love to own a substantial tubed stereo power amp or pair of mono amps it would seem that the most budget friendly approach at this point in my pursuit has been to use SS power amps paired with a tubed linestage/preamp. This way I get some great tube flavor without too high of cost or excessive heat.

As far as phono, I've had the best success with SS or hybrid designs as Mark mentions above.

Originally Posted by bzr

Definitely compulsory as ss gives me tinnitus

bzr,

Being as you're fairly new to this tube thing - might I ask what type of tubes are needed?, and what's the component brand or model they're to be used with?, as I've been studying tubes brands based upon their factory sound since 2003, I've come across some very nice sounding tubes over the years since - as well as have gained more inside into how to use this or that American tubes sound to counterbalance those of European or Japanese built tubes or factories sound to create a more collective approach to matching their respective sonic signatures to match that of the end user.

Maybe I can help in one form or another?, but in my mind tubes as someone mentioned elsewhere merely allow a more emotional reaction to be found between and around the notes in a manner many solid state components gloss over - yet in certain areas like phono-stages solid state can I fact be a blessing in regards to gain, as well as more silences between the notes themselves - as well as in how some are capable of actually bending the notes.

But that's a story for another day.

Once again - if I'm able to add some suggestions?, please feel free to just leave me a PM - and I shall respond accordingly.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Thanks Steve,

I am sure(Germany/Austria), BUT, a French Barn may even be better. French tubes are often GREAT and relatively unknown outside of France. Good thing a buddy pointed me to the ones to look out for. Unfortunately, CH is way more aligned to Germany and Holland for tubes, as the Barn barely had any French tubes. The Barn is loaded mostly with Phillips, Siemens, Tungsram and Telefunken...or should I say was, as recently he has been picked clean of the most demanded stuff.

Hi Norman,

Im still waiting to hear your impression of the Leak Stereo 20 - but lest you wish to see the tubes that perform best with your ears/system - there are times where one has to hoard as many as they can before sharing these names/brands unless of course you wish to see them disappear even quicker then they already are?, hence having 8 - 13 pairs of any given signal tube or upwards of 6 - 10 quads of power tubes needed.

Just a thought.

Yes,

I dont post that kind of impression too publicly, for sure. Not much listening done as we have tons of house work for thr Yuletide season. I am using a mixture of Mulls and Phillips MW tubes. at the moment.

In terms of the Barn, I have gotten my pals and I took pick it reltively clean for the moment. I have about 10-15 ECC83 and about 20-30 EL84s, but not all tested yet.

ECC81 and 82 picked clean by a noted Dac maker.

I suspect that Barn will takes month to get back to normal supply status.

Sorry Kev, nothing left in the Barn…picked clean! LoL

I think the point Oscar was making was that tube election will make a big difference to the SAME tube amp. The equivalent in a SS device would be opamp rolling.

It is common consensus that most modern prod tubes dont beat the right vintage tubes. I can tell you that one NYC pal scored some EL34 thru me and EL84. He found that the 34s were Phillips rebranded Mullards with XF codes and he nearly went bonkers with delight! The Phillips Holland 84s have not left his amps months later and he didnte even try the Siemens I sent!

For the Leak Stereo 20, the seller (my new buddy) said the barn Phillips Miniwatts beat the vintage Mullards he supplied me with. I have both and will see for myself eventually, plus will compare to PHILLIPS HOLLAND AND TUNGSRAM/SIEMENS.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Yes,

I dont post that kind of impression too publicly, for sure. Not much listening done as we have tons of house work for thr Yuletide season. I am using a mixture of Mulls and Phillips MW tubes. at the moment.

In terms of the Barn, I have gotten my pals and I took pick it reltively clean for the moment. I have about 10-15 ECC83 and about 20-30 EL84s, but not all tested yet.

ECC81 and 82 picked clean by a noted Dac maker.

I suspect that Barn will takes month to get back to normal supply status.

I hear that - and your amp looks wonderfully rebuilt. Be thee well.

Originally Posted by bzr

Oscar just the same as one ss has a different sound signature to the next, as are tubes the same. Appreciate the offer but will soldier on & experiment with the tone controls, I mean roll some tubes before I go "barny"

bzr,

Solider on indeed. And yes it can cause said differences, enjoy the tone controls.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Sorry Kev, nothing left in the Barn…picked clean! LoL

I think the point Oscar was making was that tube election will make a big difference to the SAME tube amp. The equivalent in a SS device would be opamp rolling.

It is common consensus that most modern prod tubes dont beat the right vintage tubes. I can tell you that one NYC pal scored some EL34 thru me and EL84. He found that the 34s were Phillips rebranded Mullards with XF codes and he nearly went bonkers with delight! The Phillips Holland 84s have not left his amps months later and he didnte even try the Siemens I sent!

For the Leak Stereo 20, the seller (my new buddy) said the barn Phillips Miniwatts beat the vintage Mullards he supplied me with. I have both and will see for myself eventually, plus will compare to PHILLIPS HOLLAND AND TUNGSRAM/SIEMENS.

Thanks Norman - you got my drift.

Sometimes I wonder how many people have blown up their gear because they installed (I hate the word "rolled") the wrong tube(s) in their gear because they are absolutely clueless on what tubes can be substituted safely. Fess up if you have blown up any gear.

A tube tester is essential if you have tube gear. Especially if you are a high roller.