Thread: Tube Experience 101

Hi all, I open this thread to allow people to give a generalization of their experiences with tubes. What designs they have tried, which they prefer and what is the driving philosophy behind their preferences. Many tube neophytes would find this a great stepping stone in their eveolving tube journey. Also, more experienced people could gain some deeper insight by sharing knowledge from different journeys. Tips are also very welcome, even if one cant expect prized tube secrets to be spilled out online…pointers rather than detailed listings is what I expect.

Things like factory over brand, or pentodes over double triodes, West Europe over Russian and Chinese, NOS over new production. Which new production is best and who are the rising stars there? Who makes the best rectifiers in general? Is EBAY a good source? Wghich brands are overrated?


Let me start by linking this about NOS vs new….Why NOS Tubes are better:

6moons industry features: A visit to BTB Elektronik

Okay, but you inventory much which would seem of interest to the high-end valve lover. So what’s up with the NOS trend? I mean, really, isn’t it mostly retro? Telefunken simply looks cooler than Sovtek stamped on the glass? Or are there bona fide advantages of quality and sound? Are we really to believe that valve quality and production processes have devolved over time?

The explanation is simple. In the 60s when valves enjoyed their halcyon days, the average German income was about 500 Deutsch Marks and an EL34 of the era sold for 15DM. If you transfer that relationship to 2012, an EL34 still sells for about €15 whilst the average income has come up to €3.000/month. It’s easy to see that tubes today are far more affordable. Hence the inverse is true too – price pressures on manufacturers are much higher today. Because valve production remains about 90% manual, you can’t compensate with automatization. In the past selection was much tighter and rejection ratios were far more generous. Today things make it to market which would have been trashed then. That’s why the quality of vintage valves tends to be quite high to make NOS much more than just a fascination with retro.

A leading question to create a teachable moment.

Wow........., a topic to which I do feel I've something worthwhile to add, it has been my experience over the course of the last 15 years in regards to tube rolling most if not all seem to use the olde Joe Tube Lore as casted in stone or the holy grail of tube knowledge if you will, there seems to be an on going fascination with the 3 European Sisters as mention on Vintage Tube Services, where most seem to think that if it isn't Amperex - Mullard or Telefunken then one doesn't own anything of worth.

Well, I for one beg to differ, as I began in back in 2003/04 buying up as many 12A_7 type variants as I'd afford, it took me to distant shores very few have traveled - I mean very few talk about what I hear as some of the most musical tubes ever built by the likes of two Japanese companies namely NEC ( Nippon Electric Company - Tokyo Japan ) whom were by one of two companies ( the other being Brimar STC U.K. ) to ever have ties with Western Electric and in fact can be viewed as my tube mentor taught me, that produced tubes that were renowned as the ones Western Electric themselves never built - like EL84 - EL34 - 6S_7 types along with 12A_7 types that were in fact not as colorized as said WE wares and actually are more neutral as well as transparent in nature and those whom have gone on to try them............, haven't looked back, while the second company is TEN Kobe Industries Corp ( Kyoto Japan ) which to my ears made some of the most quietest 12A_7 types I've heard/owned to date, and in fact produced what I in turn hear as the only 5751 ( 12AX7 Sub variant ) that actually didn't rob the musical notes of their dynamics, and yes........., I've gone through the RCA - CBS/Hytron - Sylvania - G.E. ( didn't hate them ) - Raytheon Black Plate w/. Square Getter both 2 and 3 mica version NOS 1949/56 and have found them all focused and quiet compared to standard 12AX7 tubes, yet once again had a weird manner of smothering the musical dynamics and overtones way to much for my likings. But as the olde adage goes YMMV.

As I hear/see it, some fail to misunderstand the worth of " Generalization " as it relates to tubes, as I've seen written very wisely I might add by one of the tube seller over on Audioasylum - who said something very true in - there's a tube for every circuit, and a curcuit for every tube.

Yet, I've gone one even further in not so much as asking for beta testers on the tubes I've found since said date that actually put the Euro Sisters into their rightful place, but actually beat them each into submission - I've purchased upwards to say 13 of each tube to which I've found to be extremely musical in as much as an uncolored manner as possible, here I'm referring to nonsweeten types that make music take on a more refined/forgiving/warmer/richer/creamier tone if you will, yet at the expense of inner detail - beauty and resolution, and glosses over the finer points of said musical passages robbing it of its truer state of transparency, while lacking that sense of snapping bass lines or defined fingering techniques as heard/felt by the better guitarist in the world as well as making it more difficult to distinguish between even a steel or nylon stringed guitar - not in my world you don't........... Yet most listeners seem to want one or the other, either warmer/creamier or more detailed/analytical sound, as opposed to strictly neutral and/or transparent because they're actually trying to counterbalance the effect of the coloration of their systems on a whole.

Yet, when one sits down and hears a system built first and foremost on neutrality and transparency - they've a certain look on their faces as if to offend, yet fail to understand they're actually listening to sometime without dynamic restrain that's telling the truth, good, bad or indifferently - yet to some the truth hurts.

As I'm the long-winded sort when it comes to expressing said topics that cause me to get a hard on, I'll merely say, that while some misunderstand the importance of tube factories being at the top of their list when buying tubes as opposed to the designer label, keep in mind that more often then not most NOS tube manufactures produced tubes between say 2 - 5 different factories in each country, so while you might be praising Telefunken based designs, ask yourself which factory made them - Berlin?, or Ulm?, as one offers better resolution then the other.

And let's then get onto the best sounding factory sound in regards to resolution and purity of the tubes made in Germany - here I'm talking Valvo Long Grey Plate w/. 45 degree slanted Foil Strip D Getter NOS 1953/56 as well as Lorenz E82CC/ECC802S Long Plates ( same period ) or even Siemens & Halske from said period as well, yet most continue praising Telefunken - because they merely never heard/owned any other the other brands to know the truth of the matter for themselves, they can be better quite easily I can assure you.

And lastly............, my favorite two 12AX7 brands bar none, that I've continued to own, and sell freaking boat loads of to those with ears..........., as I then ship as far away as Indonesia as a means of getting feedback on my findings, and you know what................, I'm talking 73 pairs and not a one of them was returned, as said individual were capable of hearing exactly what I felt they would, and here I'm referring to cats with upwards of $400.000 systems, said brands are Tungsram ( Hungary ) and Thomson - CSF - Minatron ( France ), and I'll add one more to said list, that I'm almost certain very few are aware of!, but should be, it's a company called Polam/Telam from Poland, whom tubes would've most breaking into tears seconds into one track.

O_oh, and why aren't more people familiar with how great tubes from the likes of Ken-Rad and Westinghouse 12A_7 type tubes from say 1953/56 are?, because they're blinded by BS Designer Labels, and haven't listened, that's why.

O_oh, well I promised that I'd shorten this.........., so let me save some for another day! but add beside current production power tubes.............., which were designed around modern tube gear which requires greater bandwidth as well as snap and detail! their preamp tubes be damned, in my mind if the input/preamp/signal tubes aren't olde school made between 1951/54 followed by their second slightly more perfected prototypes between 1955/57 and ending with the ones made from 1959/62 then you haven't heard your gear, of the ones made say upwards of 1973, only said Tungsram ( Orion ) - RFT - Thomson - CSF make the grade.

Nuff 'said.


Thanks for starting this thread Norman, I love this sort of shite.........., until next time.

I find it quite amazing that so many of you here own tube components, yet can't find time to add to this topic. It's not as hard to discuss and one would think, if you just speak on what you like/hear!, this isn't about challenging anyone's preferences in so much as seeing which of you knows your stuff as far as I'm concerned!, yet it seems.............., that one of the guys with one of the most modest systems amongst you all, has done his homework and sits at the head of the class rightfully so.

Knowledge is power, eh!.

Some differing views from another forum:

The real issue here is that your gear is using a 12AX7 and 12AU7 in the
first place. Most of them suck, plain and simple. There are only a few of them
that sound good. I know... Broad statement, based on my findings with them. IMO,
YMMV...

The Amperex tubes are good, but I find them a tad soft for my
tastes. They emphasize the midrange, particularly the upper midrange more, and
are softer at the extremes. They have great presence, image well, but this could
easily tip the balance of your system.

I'd go for regular Mullard tubes
before Amperex myself. They at least get the balance right.

The only
other 12AX7 besides the 10m I would consider is a 5751. GE and RCA would be my
top pics. Either grey or black plate, 2 mica or triple mica. They are all about
the same to me, but really good nonetheless. These don't last as long, but will
give much of the 10M performance for less dough. They also do not work well in
all gear that requires a 12AX7. They will either work wonderfully or not. Bottom
line, the 5751 is a fantastic tube, if it works well in your gear.

12AU7
tubes, with a couple acceptions, suck. Just not a very linear sounding tube. The
7318 stands well above them all. I'll even say that the 7318 is one of the best
small signal tubes you can use. If one has the headroom on heater current, your
closest alternative would be a 12BH7 or ECC99. These will tax most gear though
as they draw double the current, or more, that the 12AU7 does. With these big
plate tubes, good luck finding some quiet ones also.

I like linearity,
speed, big dynamic contrasts, focus, 3D holographic imaging, bass slam, and
vibrancy. No glare, spit, graininess, or flab. Simply put, I want it crystal
clear and like live music. Well, like I envision live music should be at least


The 10M 12AX7 and CBS 7318 really nail this better than any other of
these I have tried, and they translate the same to every piece of gear I have
tried them in that uses 12AX7/12AU7's. They just so happen to be very tough long
lasting tubes that are very rare and pricey. Damn the luck

Best thing?
Find gear that does not use a 12AX7 or a 12AU7. Lots of better tubes out there
that are much cheaper than the best 12AX7/12AU7.

and

I have just received some confirmatory feedback to what you say from a trusted
industry participant in the high end of the market:

"I am not a fan of
the ecc83 and 12x type tubes as i consider all double triodes flawed by design
(two amplification elements are never properly
aligned when used in parallel
and crosscouple into each other when used for different channels or
amplification stages).

That said, this is the extreme purist point of
view.

A well made amp using them in parallel config. can still deliver ,
even so a similar amp with single stage tubes of comparable design will add more
performance on top.

So single element triodes or pentodes come to mind
(most state of the art recording consoles of the golden age used pentodes, only
later double triodes, as they were cheaper.

I would look for a pre with a
minimum number of tubes in signal path and with the best tube power supply.
According to my research the more tubes in the signal path, the more "fuzzy
haze" .

However, if you use digital only, I would got straight out of the
dac into the power amp. If the tube output stage of the dac is properly designed
for direct drive, any additional preamp should not be necessary and in fact
will
add haze and time- smear to the sound.

More from the Gon:

Try some 5751's in place of the 12AX7. GE or RCA any type. My favorite is the
50's version of the GE, which is a triple mica black plate with D getter. This
early version can be identified by mica retainer clips above and below the inner
2 mica's. This one is very close to the 10M, if a 5751 works out in your
circuit. I'd stay away from the Sylvania's. They are typically forward
sounding.

12AU7? Since you have no extra heater current to spare, and you
can't use a 12BH7A, I can't think of any that will give you what you want. 7318
is it. Sorry

I understand you are worried about reliability and not
being able to find more of these rare tubes, but I still recommend the Mullard
10M 12AX7 and CBS 7318 for what you are trying to accomplish. You want what I
want, and what most other people want out of their system. Chances are, your CD
player is putting the tubes in a pretty light duty situation. They will likely
last 30 years or more if you get truly NOS of these. That's how tough these
suckers are. Yes, rare and pricey, but will last and be head and shoulders above
all others of this type sonically. Spend the money. Don't sweat the petty
things, and don't pet the sweaty things

Still more:

For 12AX7, the Mullard 10M are damn hard to beat. Very linear, focused, and
dimensional.

12AU7, there is only one that will keep up with the 6SN7,
and that is the CBS 7318. This was CBS answer to the audio grade Telefunken
ECC802S. Ultra rare. I have tried them all, and this tube works well in any
12AU7 circuit. Nothing comes close.

Either of these tubes last a very
long time. I have a set of 10M 12AX7 and CBS 7318's in my amps that have been
cooking for over 5 years, and they still test like the day I put them
in.

I know where some of the 7318's are, but they are pricey.
============================

I have heard that Telefunken tubes are clean and quite but quite "dead"
sounding!

Phillips/Siemens/Mullard/Brimar/Valvo/certain Teslas might be
better options. In general for the small tubes, I have heard that the W.
Europeans are the best choice and for rectifiers, the vintage Americans are the
best. This I get from a pal with 25 years experience in tube rolling and he is
based in Eastern europe.
============================

You really need to try the CBS 7318. The 10M 12AU7 is a great tube, and would be
my 2nd or 3rd choice for a 12AU7, but as I stated, there is no other 12AU7 that
will touch the 7318, and I have tried them all, quite literally. This translates
to every piece of gear I have tried them in that requires a 12AU7 as well,
including phono sections.

Stocks of them depleted before the internet,
and this is when they were very popular. That said, there is very little info
about them anywhere to speak of, nor can you find any of them for
sale.
===============
12AU7….is that the ECC82?

If so, I agree the Mullards are great and
failing that, get Tungsram, Tesla, or Phillips (not miniwatt).
================
Your 10M 12AU7 is getting tough to find and is a stellar sounding tube also, so
you appreciate the finer tubes. I would have never mentioned it if they were
totally unobtainable and cost prohibitive.
==================
If the 5814 will not work in your player, the 12BH7 surely will not. It draws
exactly double the heater current that the 12AU7 does.

I seriously doubt that the 5814 will do any harm to your situation. It only draws a fraction more heater current than a normal 12AU7.

To answer, the 10M 12AX7 is far and
away my favorite 12AX7. Smokes the Telefunken for sure. They are pricey also
though...

Some of the better 5751 tubes will compete sonically, but I
have found no better 12AX7 than the 10M Mullard. Very 3D, extended, with deep
powerful bass. Also not as overly warm as the typical Mullards.

Another
great tube is the 1950's version of the GE Black Plate 5751's. This tube gets
damn close to the 10M, but they don't last near as long.

The 7318 is the
best 12AU7 I have tried. Beats 12BH7, ECC99, or any other brand or variant you
can think of. It is very special, and yes, it is big on tone, just like the
6SN7.

KT-77,

Do you mind chipping in with 3 and 4th tier choices for the ECC8xx class of tubes and same for EL34 and EL84 classes? These could very well be the value for money plays.

I have tried them all - KT88/EL34/K120/300b/845/211/etc., etc. I have tried Push-pull, SET, OTL and hybrid.

My favorites are my SET Cary 805AE amps (using GE 211 tubes, WE 300b) and my OTL Music Reference OTL-1. I thoroughly enjoyed my hybrid McIntosh 2301's as well.

Technically, I prefer SET over push-pull for the reasons indicated here: Musical Ecstasy: Size Doesn?t Matter | Sounds Good!

As for tubes, I much prefer NOS vs new production. I find the new Russian tubes generally sound hard and the new Chinese tubes sound bright and thin. There are exceptions, but this is a general rule. NOS tubes are sought out and raise in value for a reason: they are the best sounding, best made, longest lasting.

Once you hear a good SET, it's hard to go back to any push-pull. OTL's get you one step closer to the music and performers. SET's will emotionally involve you.

Too many push-pull amp designers today are shooting for neutrality (no coloration) and tube amps which ultimately exhibit SS characteristics (more top end extension, more bottom end extension - and stretching out the mid range in the process). In the end, many times, they end up with an amp that sounds like a bad 80's Solid State amp (example: VTL).

This isn't to say you can't make a SET amp sound bad too, I'm sure there are some out there. But generally speaking, SET's are what I envision when I think of a proper sounding tube amp.

If you understand the fundamental difference between SET's and PP's....it will make sense why SET's usually sound better.

Musical Ecstasy: Size Doesn?t Matter | Sounds Good!

Originally Posted by sharkmouth

Oscar, with all respect, I was the kid smoking at break & doing dope to Pink Floyd's latest when i finally managed to get the hell away from home! found loud music where my dad didn't give me a kick in the ass for doing things too loud when living on my own time & money, paid for it ever since & given many governments some too in taxes. Unfortunately I am not retired & don't have the time to gather a knowledge as of yours in the "tube". I really wish i had though, for me it's baby steps at the mo, but, i dare say that extremely good post of yours above has probably left most with a dislocated jaw. I will be in touch by the way as I have a LM 219ia inbound & am very interested in what you would recommend to go to the top of the chain in AAAA+ tubes for it. Thanks for sharing.....

Good Day Kev,

It wasn't my intent to call anyone out on this, in so much as trying to start a conversation as a means of seeing what others like?, and why?. My quest with tubes began in 2003, yet I had owned tube gear as early as 1989, but at the time didn't know jack and ended up selling off pieces like a CAL Aria MK II CD player - Cary 300B-SEI and Sweet 807 and Audible Illusions M3A, but in doing so would later hear each piece in the persons home I sold them to..........., singing their behinds off, and didn't understand why I couldn't get to preform in this manner.

Yet, it took me until said 2003, and about $3.700 worth of signal tubes later to fully understand the voicing process needed with said devices, but as I'm awaiting my in home care physician to stop by, I've every intent on coming back shortly afterwards and extend even more on this matter............, and if?, you're wiling to trust my ears/taste/research?, then dude, do I've some worthwhile tube recommendations for you............., so until then, watch this space.

Originally Posted by wisnon

KT-77,

Do you mind chipping in with 3 and 4th tier choices for the ECC8xx class of tubes and same for EL34 and EL84 classes? These could very well be the value for money plays.

Norman,

After said doctors visit, I'd be honored to do just that............, until then.

I know Oscar. It was just a placeholder for you...a drumrool, if you like. LoL

Oscar,

I sincerely appreciate all your tube knowledge. I try and do the "safe" thing but probably miss out on a lot of great tubes. Good luck with the Dr. and thanks again.

i only use tube gear, and in the past ive bought and sold loads of them(tubes, and amps and preamps). and yes i buy the big names, because that is what i was taught. mullard,tele,mazda,rca,brimar,amperex, new production, nos, and used, ect ect.
basically knowing not much about them aside from their said sonic signature. buy em try em if i dont love them , sell them. ive had a few suggestions from very knowledgeable tube guys in the past that were some good, some very good, and some not right for my setup.
so i have not much to add to this thread.lol.
this allnic gear im presently running uses some weird tubes and are impossible to find any, so rolling is not an option. the phonostage came stock with nos mullard e180cc(12AV7) and the integrated comes with some pcl86(14gw8)driver tubes. which again i cant find anywhere. so it makes it easy for me, just keep those in there and only thing i can try is new 300b's. which im on my 6th or 7th set (not all with this amp) ,and am very happy with the kr xls's. that are presently in there.
i cant ever tell you which factory or what side of the street tubes were made on , or any of that info. but i can tell you what i liked in certain gear that ive had in the past.
i can tell you not to buy tubes from china on ebay, any ive tried or any one i know has tried came in broke or bad or just not worth it.

Originally Posted by wisnon

I know Oscar. It was just a placeholder for you...a drumrool, if you like. LoL

And........., here we go.



Tubes Le' Finale Frontier.


Okay where were we?.


Once again, I've to thank my tube mentor over the course of the last 15 years from the Hong Kong Tube Audio Group c/o. Yahoo, a Mr. Adrian Foo, whom has taught me to think outside the box and venture outwards to tubes which many simply haven't heard, or misunderstand how they should be used, as the reality of the matter is using them in tandem with other brands whether European ones for their delicate nature along side American made ones which offer a bolder, more pronounced presentation that when done correctly?, creates a collective whole that maximizes on one another's strengths, while minimizing their weaknesses - hence a wholistic approach to voicing ones system according to their preferences as it relates to resolution as well as sonic purity.


As far as 12A_7 types go:


(1) the NEC ( Tokyo Japan ) rank as number one in my book, and offer a sound that has no sound at all if you will, as it merely gives you what your preamp or integrated has to offer, yet it is used in tandem with tubes of various sonic differences as a means of emphasizing every little nuance presented in a more natural manner that only few have heard/felt.


(2) Would've to be a pair of Philips Ned. Instituut voor Fysisch Onderzoek 1955 (k6P dX) long welded grey plates, angled D-getter with no crossbar. But as stated earlier on, just how many have heard there, compared to say the more common versions from Heerlen, Holland or Copenhagen Demark?, as their factor sounds are much more important then the name stuck on the boxes/glass would ever indicate.


(3) This honor goes to the Valvo Hamburg 1954-1955 (DX k6X old code) long grey crimped ribbed plate, double mica, foil Strip - angled D-getter, forget about those often overrated Telefunken ECC802S based tubes, this is clearly a giant step above them in regards to refinement - purity and resolution as if an actual human being is not only standing in the room with you..........., but she's standing right next to you so closely you can smell she perfume.


(4) I'm going to go out on a limb here, as these are one of my favorites bar none, and I still have at least another 18 pairs I'd love to obtain before the supplies dry up, and at some point it will - and add Tungsram produced in Tilburg, Holland late 1950s-early 1960s short grey welded plates with metal tab, double mica, metal tab on plate, red internal wiring, double getter support, foil O-getter with two elongated dimples [parasol getter]. And here they're most commonly found as the versions made in Hungary.


(5) Telam/Polam made in Warsaw Poland NOS 1954/58, simply have to be heard to be believed, the problem is finding them, but once you've heard these............., you'll understand what sonic refinement and richest is all about, and so much so, you'll start to look at tubes from the likes of Amperex and Mullard quite differently.


(6) At the lower end/cost of the spectrum, and more commonly found, yet still deserving of attention are names like -


RFT - Ken-Rad ( Kentucky Radio versions produced before G.E. Took over in 1954 ) and Westinghouse which I've noticed many simply haven't mentioned in the least, yet are clearly much much much better sonically top to bottom then the bit boys in American tube designs namely RCA - Sylvania - Raytheon - Tung-Sol and said G.E versions, it's not even close.


EL84 types:


(1) Polam/Telam EL84 NOS 1964/74 are equal to anything that either of the Philips owned companies ever made, here I'm referring to the likes of those Amperex and Mullard D - Getter versions made during the 1950s only, as to my ears anything made after 1962 had it sonic signatures lost in the mix as companies simply didn't want to invest into the R&D matters anymore with the introduction of transistors starting to become more and more in demand ( which to me, was a grave mistake or fuck up, if I'm allowed to get that one off my chest? ). So far, I've collected 13 quads of these, and Abso!utely wouldn't be without them in my life, these in tandem with said Tungsram signal/preamp tubes as mentioned earlier on with have any grown ass man crying for hours and hours as heard with any vocalist male or female, and trust me I'm one of those big ass 6'6" 275lb black versions of Brock Lesnar ( the difference is, I can actually fight instead of having to take someone to the mat ) and an Ex-Marine to boot, and hold a record of 78 knock outs and 2 loses, and can admit that even if it's George Michael singing Jesus To A Child or some olde school Jazz Female Vocalist..............., my big ass is crying right in front of the wife ( and could care less ) or waving my lighter back and fourth as if at a live event, this is one of the most moving combination of tubes I've ever owned/heard to date, call me biased, but if noting else - this olde cat can hear how music should be heard - on an emotional level, and fuck Hi-Fi effects, it has to speak to my inner being and have a human element to it, lest it serves me not..........


(2) NEC 6B5Q NOS 1958/64 ( Tokyo Japan ) All I can say here is.................., if you need them?, and can find them?, fucking buy them without taking another breathe, and thank me later............, see above mention of this line of tubes on a whole, colorization lovers, need not apply, these are about neutrality and transparency above all else, and will once again place you that much closer to the heavens, and within arms reach of the Creator himself.


EL34 types:


As many rate the Philips owned companies ( including Amperex/Mullard ) once again as the bees knee when it comes to said designs. I'd said that at a greater savings try the following brands and thank me later, unless you like microphonic tubes that is?.


(1) Tesla EL34 or more rugged E34L Reddish Brown Base versions made between 1960/68 w/. Yellow Text/Logo made in Czechoslovakia - as these have the best top to bottom frequency response I've ever heard - period. And as I've gone by one form or another of said power tubes, as my username on various forums since 1998, I've been through about 18 different makes of these tubes, and have loved them, but began upon listening to my now current favorite integrated amp which uses EL84s, how much was actually missing with these tubes, I mean they offer hell of a great sounding midrange and all, but rolled off both the tops and bottom ends to much for me to go back to, as said EL84s in some sense remind me of the snap - nimbleness and directness I've heard from the likes of triode tubes like the 45s and 2A3s as compared to 300Bs, that weren't as delicate or glossed over the midrange with its wonderful presence and all - but they offered speed and resolution to my ears beat the crap out of any given 300B SET amp I'm heard to date including what I've always felt were to of the better designs out there in Art Audio as well as Border Patrol makes. Longer story shorter ( it's not gonna happen ), these tubes are the shit ( oops!, my bad on the language - but it's the truth ).


(2) Matshita EL34 ( Takatsuki, Japan )


Which are basically similar in sound to any of the Philips based companies wares once again, but at an even greater savings - Nuff 'Said,


(3) SED Winged =C= ( NOS 1989/2009 versions )


What can I say about these?, well I'll make this tale even shorter if you don't mind ( I knew you wouldn't ) I had been an avid user of these since 2003, and had a very hard time even wishing to own another Philips based family owned quad of EL34s, as I began to noticed just how closely these tubes mimicked their good and bad points to a " T ", while some might say, O_oh, they are weak in their top and bottom end, in truth most EL34s all were............., unless one wishes to get me started on KT77s?, which I'd much prefer to save something to bring up for another day if it's okay.


Once again, while I've seen it mentioned here on a Shindo Labs thread, how one posted stated that Shindo lacks PRAT, shit..............., I beg to differ, as someone coming out of the 80s/90s and up until 2012 has been firmly rooted into the Linn/Naim Flat-Earth mindset, PRAT are nothing more then Hi-Fi lingo ( pun intended ) for what some see/hear as the greater strengths of solid state designs, yet one has to ask themselves when comparing then to tube designs, which then sound more natural?, or offers more beauty or texture?, then it becomes less of a matter of nimbleness or the snap - crackle pop show ( because in hindsight that's all it is ), but hearing these tubes in both a Leben CS-600 followed by a a Shindo Labs Montrachet was all it took for me to look at my ex-Asian buddies ( yeah, shit happens and then you wake up ) and go " WTF " and guys I'm taking what I've to say was a prefect balance of a life breathing musician/artist standing right there...................., once again I'd literally smell Sade's perfume and could even tell she rinsed with strawberry flavored Scope ( if there ever was a thing? ), and came away thinking out loud I might add..............., if it's good enough for these two very different sounding amps, which freaked me the fuck out ( not easy to do , and once again, my bad on the use of wordage, but it's the only way I can express where it draws others attention ) then it's good enough to be used in others.


And on an added note, I've to say that being the practical sort that I'm , there's a difference between this and being cheap, but if I'd have the funds I had yesteryear while I was employed instead of relying on say half of that on disability......................, at the very least a Shindo Apetite ( because of my newfound love towards EL84s as mentioned elsewhere ) would have been sitting on my amp stand as I'm typing this, for those that listen to components effects instead of judging how they relate the finer points on a purely emotional or musical level, then I stand on the other side of the fence, and will always pursue musicality - tonality - texture - refinement - truth of pitch and timbre and beauty to PRAT any day of the week, this shit breathes music, and to my mindset, has something very special going on.


So, that's my tale for now, and please try not to hold my biases against me, as they're meant to be just that, my opinions after years of research and then re-learning what to listen for!, and how it should be heard/felt on an emotional level, and listening to sound effects don't fucking do it for me, oops!, sorry once again for being overly passionate about said matters as to let such words get out.


Be well guys........., as my doctor arrives at 2:00 PM, I really do have to go this time.

Originally Posted by joeinid

Oscar,

I sincerely appreciate all your tube knowledge. I try and do the "safe" thing but probably miss out on a lot of great tubes. Good luck with the Dr. and thanks again.

Joe,

Thank you, and know that I know your fears, but I also know your heart - but lest you call me out on this, and at the very least sample my wares/knowledge on tubes!, then you still won't know the truth of the matter, at which point, you can tell me I'm right or wrong?, and let others know either way!, dude............, on this subject as well as jazz labels and isolation devices/platforms I've to pride myself of and say these are areas where I've done my home works and have passed with straight A's, I know this shite.

and as always - Thank you for just being.................., 'U. And your welcome Joey.

Originally Posted by Mike

I have tried them all - KT88/EL34/K120/300b/845/211/etc., etc. I have tried Push-pull, SET, OTL and hybrid.

My favorites are my SET Cary 805AE amps (using GE 211 tubes, WE 300b) and my OTL Music Reference OTL-1. I thoroughly enjoyed my hybrid McIntosh 2301's as well.

Technically, I prefer SET over push-pull for the reasons indicated here: Musical Ecstasy: Size Doesn?t Matter | Sounds Good!

As for tubes, I much prefer NOS vs new production. I find the new Russian tubes generally sound hard and the new Chinese tubes sound bright and thin. There are exceptions, but this is a general rule. NOS tubes are sought out and raise in value for a reason: they are the best sounding, best made, longest lasting.

Once you hear a good SET, it's hard to go back to any push-pull. OTL's get you one step closer to the music and performers. SET's will emotionally involve you.

Too many push-pull amp designers today are shooting for neutrality (no coloration) and tube amps which ultimately exhibit SS characteristics (more top end extension, more bottom end extension - and stretching out the mid range in the process). In the end, many times, they end up with an amp that sounds like a bad 80's Solid State amp (example: VTL).

This isn't to say you can't make a SET amp sound bad too, I'm sure there are some out there. But generally speaking, SET's are what I envision when I think of a proper sounding tube amp.

If you understand the fundamental difference between SET's and PP's....it will make sense why SET's usually sound better.

Musical Ecstasy: Size Doesn?t Matter | Sounds Good!

Mike,

I'll give you this, at least you've sampled the waters more then most, and as a result have found what I've often term as " Mi-Fi ", in that you know what moves you, know the question is.................., let's see for how long?, I mean it's nice to be able to afford the planet, but like a friend asked me several months ago that made sense - when is good enough,enough?.

But admire your truths, and to me being honest with oneself, is where the journey begins and ends.

You've great taste in components, and I'll give you that one as well, and even more so a kind spirit enough to assist me when I've doubts, but I just can't afford the things you can, but I've heard a lot of them, and agree money talks.................., but I'm still crawling ( literally thanks to my gout ), but all in all, I'm good in knowing how to voice my system to a point, where it's clicking............., I meant to say very very musical to my ears/senses/heart.

Originally Posted by Petro85

i only use tube gear, and in the past ive bought and sold loads of them(tubes, and amps and preamps). and yes i buy the big names, because that is what i was taught. mullard,tele,mazda,rca,brimar,amperex, new production, nos, and used, ect ect.
basically knowing not much about them aside from their said sonic signature. buy em try em if i dont love them , sell them. ive had a few suggestions from very knowledgeable tube guys in the past that were some good, some very good, and some not right for my setup.
so i have not much to add to this thread.lol.
this allnic gear im presently running uses some weird tubes and are impossible to find any, so rolling is not an option. the phonostage came stock with nos mullard e180cc(12AV7) and the integrated comes with some pcl86(14gw8)driver tubes. which again i cant find anywhere. so it makes it easy for me, just keep those in there and only thing i can try is new 300b's. which im on my 6th or 7th set (not all with this amp) ,and am very happy with the kr xls's. that are presently in there.
i cant ever tell you which factory or what side of the street tubes were made on , or any of that info. but i can tell you what i liked in certain gear that ive had in the past.
i can tell you not to buy tubes from china on ebay, any ive tried or any one i know has tried came in broke or bad or just not worth it.

Steve, I am not 100% sure but PCL tubes appear to be TV tubes and if so, my happy hunting ground for tubes may have them (local and Lots of Phillips TV tubes). Pictures of the barn below:

http://ali-charles-baba.blogspot.ch

https://plus.google.com/photos/111229876393052010332/albums/5546180127275257233?banner=pwa

Duplicated.

Originally Posted by mep

KT77-While I find your postings about different tube manufacturers and the factories they were made in and what clothes the workers were wearing on a given day when tubes were manufactured in said plant to be mildly entertaining, I hope that people don't accept everything you say as gospel. It's all a little too over the top with opinions masquerading as facts.

When you make comments such as this:



-I find it hard to take you seriously. Given the provenance of tubes from back in the glory days of tube manufacturing around the world is damn near impossible to trace because we don't have DNA tests for tubes, many people can be fooled into thinking they like a certain tube from a certain company when the reality is the tube may well have been manufactured by another tube company half way around the world. Tube companies helping each other out with tube production was basically standard practice. I have RCA boxed and branded 6922 tubes that were made by Mullard. I have had RCA branded and boxed EL-34 tubes that were Mullard XF2 EL-34s. To make blanket statements that companies like RCA or Tung-Sol didn't make very good sounding tubes and Westinghouse kicked their ass is just nonsense.

I also thought the statement about American rectifiers being the "best" a little interesting. One of the most common tube rectifiers used in tube audio gear was the GZ-34/5AR4. And yes, I have had RCA branded/boxed 5AR4s that were actually Mullard GZ-34s. I also have some Amperex branded GZ-34s with the Bugle Boy label that are Mullard tubes. If there is a GZ-34 known to outlast the Mullard version, I haven't heard of it yet.

The other thing to keep in mind is that different tube types/brands will sound different depending upon the circuit they are used in which makes it hard to make universal declarations about how a particular tube brand sounds. Beware of guides who can and will lead you down blind alleys where you will be *mugged* for your tube money. Remember, at the end of the day, people are just giving you their opinions which certainly aren't supportable by any facts. The best you can do is buy from reputable sellers who actually have the ability to test, grade, and match the tubes you want to buy. The amount of crap "NOS" tubes on the market is just incredible. The amount of tubes being sold as "NOS" when in fact they are quite used is also incredible. That's why it's important to trust who you buy from. Going on Ebay and buying "NOS" tubes and hoping they really are new and are remotely close to being matched even though the seller says they are while also hoping the tubes won't have gas, shorts, and be microphonic enough that you could sing through them at a Karaoke bar is about the same odds as going to a whorehouse and riding bareback and hoping you don't come out with some STDs.

Hi mep,

While I'll agree with you on some points, I can't on others, as I was asked to talk about 12A_7 and EL84 and EL34 types specifically - yet I'm well versed in other tube types as well. I don't want others to take my words as the gospel, far from it, it's merely a means if discussing the tubes I've actually taken time to purchase and compare side by side with other brands as installed in 5 different tube Integrated's I've owned since said date of 2003, and going beyond that by shipping them to friends in England - France - Greece - Germany - Hong Kong - Canada - Indonesia - Malaysia - Japan whom all have much more expensive systems then I, yet can seemingly come to like wise conclusions, whereas our findings are similar, as based upon what each of us has heard.

If someone hasn't actually taken the time to spend more then a few minutes comparing said Westinghouse to an RCA Long Carbonized Black Plate w/. Square Getter, and honestly know what to listen for?, then they just might miss what I'm getting at, but in all honesty. If one uses say the Tubemonger Tube Library or merely take it upon themselves to seriously study the internal structure of any given tube regardless of what's written on their boxes or glass, as I think I mentioned earlier, it then becomes much much easier to know what you're buying, case in point - I've purchased tubes labeled as Tungsram ECC83/12AX7 made in Vienna, Austria that were actually nothing more then Lorenz ECC83/12AX7 Long Plates with 4 Silver Corner Bumpers located at top and bottom of their plates, which is its common tell take sign, but only those whom have studied it or the differences would've actually been able to catch that.

And for the record, I do like the sound of RCA and Tung-Sol Long Black Plate 12A_7 types w/. Square Getter ( where said Tung-Sol versions were made for them by RCA between 1950/53 ), yet it's not saying much if someone hasn't compared them to less known brands, just based upon ones assumption because RCA started the production of 12A_7 types tubes back in the 40s, that they can't be bettered, unless I'm missing something here?. And even then, what is said person listening to/for?, as we go about accessing the sonics of tubes from slightly different perspectives do we not?, some focus their attentions on thinks like the treble - midrange - bass response, while some might listen to how said tubes relates the tone of a female vocalist phasing technique or how it does tone shadings or pitch which are just as relevant.

But it's all subjective - at best, is it not?. In much the same manner those whom have become accustomed to cartridges like Koetsu or Ikea very seldom purchase other brands, as it's a means of conditioning our minds/ears to what moves us each on an emotional level, where again, there aren't any rights or wrongs, but what they end user knows feels right to them.

I'm not a tube seller, yet I've shared tubes with quite a few over the years, whom have reported back they've liked my ears/taste and recommendations, but I'm much more concerned about offering music lovers options to the tubes that are overlooked - unknown - under appreciated because of what?, because of what " others " have said I've to own/hear!, I think not. But if some would prefer to be closed minded and sit in the same olde seat on the bus year after year after year, without knowing there are other seats available to them, then more power to them.

I'm more about opening minds, as opposed to shutting them down, and merely try my best to share said unknown gems based upon not only my ears, but countless friends whom have had to tubes sent to them as well.............., and as we should all know, different systems do indeed sound different, yet if certain tubes is capable of bringing each one of these users in say 37 different systems to the same results, and each hears the good, bad or Indifferences in these tubes, that's when I tend to look upon matters in a more " generalized mindset ", because all 37 of us aren't likely to hear the same things, are we?.

Once again, I'm not a pimp of wares/tubes, lies, misconceptions, just a guy trying to expand ones minds as to the fact there are plenty of tube options out there, that remain undiscovered.

Yet it's the ones whom hear these tubes that know what I'm getting at.............., consult your local tube dealer and see what even some of them don't know............, ask them about the sound of NEC - TEN Kobe Japanese tubes, and see what they've to add!, nothing, because all of the Japanese tubes look the same, and were treated as such.

Just food for thought, but don't believe me, shit........, I'm just a music lover whom would rather spend my money on tubes and music, instead of components, as I stated earlier............., my system moves me, now about yours?, or do you feel a need to change something?, I thought so..............., once again as my mentor taught me, knowledge is power and those that don't know are stuck in the BS world of not knowing.

It's all good..............., more great sounding tubes for me to know about, while others will find themselves trying to guess what's what.

O_oh, mep,

Lets text your knowledge share we?, there are two brands that have 30 - 45 degree angles on the O Getter, can you name them without asking others or googling photos?.

Hint - Matsushita Japan and Valvo Germany. But to know that, requires studying the structure of said tubes, therein lies the truth, as there is always one to be found, it one knows where to look?, one can't be fooled.

Originally Posted by Petro85

i only use tube gear, and in the past ive bought and sold loads of them(tubes, and amps and preamps). and yes i buy the big names, because that is what i was taught. mullard,tele,mazda,rca,brimar,amperex, new production, nos, and used, ect ect.
basically knowing not much about them aside from their said sonic signature. buy em try em if i dont love them , sell them. ive had a few suggestions from very knowledgeable tube guys in the past that were some good, some very good, and some not right for my setup.
so i have not much to add to this thread.lol.
this allnic gear im presently running uses some weird tubes and are impossible to find any, so rolling is not an option. the phonostage came stock with nos mullard e180cc(12AV7) and the integrated comes with some pcl86(14gw8)driver tubes. which again i cant find anywhere. so it makes it easy for me, just keep those in there and only thing i can try is new 300b's. which im on my 6th or 7th set (not all with this amp) ,and am very happy with the kr xls's. that are presently in there.
i cant ever tell you which factory or what side of the street tubes were made on , or any of that info. but i can tell you what i liked in certain gear that ive had in the past.
i can tell you not to buy tubes from china on ebay, any ive tried or any one i know has tried came in broke or bad or just not worth it.

Steve,

Just a heads up, in case you every want to try a different flavor one day?, NEC 12AV7 tubes:


Google Translate

And Polam PCL86:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-NOS-NIB-PO...-/220661133291

And Japanese sellers can be trusted, it's an honor thing with them.

Thank me later.

Hey fellas...as your friendly neighborhood mod; let me weigh-in here.

I consider myself, a real moderate...when it comes to most of the "debated" topics in hi-fi. This one is no exception.

The phrase "a fool and his money...", really comes to mind. I've dabbled in tubes...but my experiences have run pretty mainstream, because I think it's a mine-field out there!

Seriously...I could take a pair of $10 Chinese tubes, and I dare say 95% of aficionados at RMAF; couldn't pick them from $1,000 NOS. I'm not trying to challenge anyone's expertise; but I used to deal in an enterprise, where "fakes" also ran rampant. As soon as you try and find a "fool-proof" method, for weeding out the knock-offs; the bad guys find a way to use it against you.

Not to single KT out...but if he has the time, to educate himself; and in his mind, stay one step ahead...then that's good for him. I know most of us don't. I mean...just as a small example; I'm looking for 6922s for my ARC pre-amp. I keep reading about the "holy grail" of CCa. Now...if you search eBay; you'll find everything from $15 for a single, to $450 for a pair.

A well-known and used vendor...is charging $450/per, for some. So...who's gouging; who's got the real deal, etc. I mean, it's dicey business. I think we all want to believe, there are bargains to be had; and maybe...just maybe...we let that sway us into hearing what we want.

But it's a subject with passionate opinions; and I urge everyone, to show some restraint here. In other words...let's not attack each others opinions or choices. Carry on

Although I had some tube equipment in the 80's - an ARC Classic 60 amp is what I best remember, it was in the late 90's when I was in Hong Kong, that I had my tube revelation. I was record hunting in a relatively small Hi-Fi shop in Central HK. The bins were in the front of the store. It was a weekday morning and the store was empty except for a European looking couple, the man was in an animated conversation with the owner of the shop, and his wife was sitting quietly knitting. Then the music began to play out of relatively small bookshelf speakers. It was magical. I stopped going through the bins and went toward the back of the store and sat down, mesmerized. Finally after a break in the music, I asked what we were hearing. The man was Riccardo Kron, and he was demonstrating his SET amps to the owner. His wife Eunice was knitting. The amp was one of Kron's SET's powered by his KR 300B tubes - something like 8-10watts per side. The price of the amps was astronomical for me, but I was still hooked. For the next few years I was on a search for that sound - or something similar. I got a Nelson Pass Aleph 3 amp which was his attempt to make a SS design similar to a tube SET. It got me part of the way there, but not until I found a used pair of Cary Signature 2A3 SET amps - only about 4 watts a side, did I have a real SET. Coincidentally the 2A3 tubes were KR's.

The Cary 2A3 amps had been sold with a pair of Soliloquy 2A3 bookshelf speakers, which were designed to go with them. However, I was looking for a bigger sound to fill my music room. Around 2004 I found a used pair of Avantagarde Duo's which at 103db efficiency were a great match for the Cary's. I haven't changed those out for more than a decade now, although I have had to replace the tubes, mainly the 2A3. First with another KR set, then when the KR's doubled in price to about $750 a pair, I tried and liked the Shuguang Treasures and after that the Psvane successors to the Shuguang which I have still. My phono pre is a tube powered custom Bottlehead which Dan Schmalle put in some NOS tubes that he likes (similar in design to my tube Bottlehead tape prepro, and my preamp is a Herron VTSP-3A which Keith chose the tubes.

I'm not a tube roller, and only have replaced tubes when they go out. Don't have the knowledge that many of you have, but I became addicted to the SET sound - now 10 years in my system.

Larry

Originally Posted by mep

I for one do not consider myself to be a tube expert and claim to have detailed knowledge of the construction of every brand and type of tube known to man nor do I know which factory of the major players was "the" factory to source tubes from. I still have a fairly good stash of tubes and a prized tube caddy, but unfortunately or fortunately, I'm not using those tube types currently. I'm very fat on some choice 12AU7 type tubes and I still have some decent 6922 family tubes including Siemens Halske CCa tubes. And yes, I'm quite fond of the Siemens Halske CCa tubes.

The best advice I can give to people is what I said earlier: Pick your tube gurus wisely and try and make sure they have a reputation for selling great tubes and they have the ability to test, grade, and match the tubes you buy from them. Everything else is a crapshoot. It's also hard to go wrong with buying tubes from the OEM of the gear you bought. ARC seems to have high standards with regards to testing and grading their tubes for the particular applications they will be used for in their gear and culling out the junk and I'm sure CJ does the same. I have also had good luck buying tubes from Uncle Kevin at Upscale Audio. Buying tubes from strangers on Audiogon or Ebay is a real gamble. You may strike gold or you may just get the shaft.

Mep, those Siemens CCa...are too damn good, to just be sitting in your caddy!

Originally Posted by mep

So are many of the other tubes sitting in that caddy!

Feel free...to insert; any 6922s, here...

Originally Posted by mep

Um, is this a joke? I never claimed to know what people ate for breakfast in 1953 when they were making tubes on an assembly line in Japan, Europe, or the U.S. Who ever said there was magic about having a getter angled between 30-45 degrees? Getters were made in all kinds of shapes and sizes and people ascribe all types of magical properties to them when the fact remains they can be useful to help you identify a true name-brand tube that happens to be a tube that you like from a fake tube (and yes, we now have fakes), but that doesn't mean the tube sounds great because of the getter(s). The design of the tube and by that I mean the cathode, heater, grid(s) and how well those parts are manufactured and assembled into the glass envelope and what cleanliness levels were maintained during the assembly is more important to the quality and life of the tube than the angle of the getter(s).

Not a joke, merely a question that shows that I've studies said matters when it comes to buying fake tubes..........I can personally care less what most people think of what I'm saying ( except those whom have actually heard the tubes in question ) yet, your point is what?, you haven't heard them at all, have you?. In which case there are sometimes where people shouldn't voice their opinions on matters they don't know about. But I'll honor Chris notice below and blow this off, as it's not worth it to even try to prove any said points as you've said elsewhere - your new gear doesn't allow you the honor of voicing it to your likings anyways.

And, I've never been much for joking, being anyone's clown, or court jester, so no........., it's not a joke, know thou shit, or merely try to listen instead of being seen/heard if that's okay?.

Originally Posted by CDLehner

Hey fellas...as your friendly neighborhood mod; let me weigh-in here.

I consider myself, a real moderate...when it comes to most of the "debated" topics in hi-fi. This one is no exception.

The phrase "a fool and his money...", really comes to mind. I've dabbled in tubes...but my experiences have run pretty mainstream, because I think it's a mine-field out there!

Seriously...I could take a pair of $10 Chinese tubes, and I dare say 95% of aficionados at RMAF; couldn't pick them from $1,000 NOS. I'm not trying to challenge anyone's expertise; but I used to deal in an enterprise, where "fakes" also ran rampant. As soon as you try and find a "fool-proof" method, for weeding out the knock-offs; the bad guys find a way to use it against you.

Not to single KT out...but if he has the time, to educate himself; and in his mind, stay one step ahead...then that's good for him. I know most of us don't. I mean...just as a small example; I'm looking for 6922s for my ARC pre-amp. I keep reading about the "holy grail" of CCa. Now...if you search eBay; you'll find everything from $15 for a single, to $450 for a pair.

A well-known and used vendor...is charging $450/per, for some. So...who's gouging; who's got the real deal, etc. I mean, it's dicey business. I think we all want to believe, there are bargains to be had; and maybe...just maybe...we let that sway us into hearing what we want.

But it's a subject with passionate opinions; and I urge everyone, to show some restraint here. In other words...let's not attack each others opinions or choices. Carry on

Bet.

Originally Posted by CDLehner

Feel free...to insert; any 6922s, here...

I hear you should avoid Electro harmonix for 6922, E88CC/E188CC is a better bet. Valvo , Siemens, Phillips SQ...and the Siemens CCa.

Here is a classic post on tubes:
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d...ubes.html#6DJ8

Originally Posted by CDLehner

The phrase "a fool and his money...", really comes to mind. I've dabbled in tubes...but my experiences have run pretty mainstream, because I think it's a mine-field out there!

Seriously...I could take a pair of $10 Chinese tubes, and I dare say 95% of aficionados at RMAF; couldn't pick them from $1,000 NOS. I'm not trying to challenge anyone's expertise; but I used to deal in an enterprise, where "fakes" also ran rampant. As soon as you try and find a "fool-proof" method, for weeding out the knock-offs; the bad guys find a way to use it against you.

Not to single KT out...but if he has the time, to educate himself; and in his mind, stay one step ahead...then that's good for him. I know most of us don't. I mean...just as a small example; I'm looking for 6922s for my ARC pre-amp. I keep reading about the "holy grail" of CCa. Now...if you search eBay; you'll find everything from $15 for a single, to $450 for a pair.

A well-known and used vendor...is charging $450/per, for some. So...who's gouging; who's got the real deal, etc. I mean, it's dicey business. I think we all want to believe, there are bargains to be had; and maybe...just maybe...we let that sway us into hearing what we want.

But it's a subject with passionate opinions; and I urge everyone, to show some restraint here. In other words...let's not attack each others opinions or choices. Carry on

That's why I mainly go tube hunting locally, like here:

Ali-Charles-Baba

Originally Posted by CDLehner

Not to single KT out...but if he has the time, to educate himself; and in his mind, stay one step ahead...then that's good for him. I know most of us don't. I mean...just as a small example; I'm looking for 6922s for my ARC pre-amp. I keep reading about the "holy grail" of CCa. Now...if you search eBay; you'll find everything from $15 for a single, to $450 for a pair.

A well-known and used vendor...is charging $450/per, for some. So...who's gouging; who's got the real deal, etc. I mean, it's dicey business. I think we all want to believe, there are bargains to be had; and maybe...just maybe...we let that sway us into hearing what we want.

Chris, here is an argument I got AGAINST the CCa being the "ultimate" or true "holy grail":
I am not a fan of
the ecc83 and 12x type tubes as i consider all double triodes flawed by design
(two amplification elements are never properly
aligned when used in parallel
and crosscouple into each other when used for different channels or
amplification stages).

That said, this is the extreme purist point of
view.

A well made amp using them in parallel config. can still deliver ,
even so a similar amp with single stage tubes of comparable design will add more
performance on top.

So single element triodes or pentodes come to mind
(most state of the art recording consoles of the golden age used pentodes, only
later double triodes, as they were cheaper.

I would look for a pre with a
minimum number of tubes in signal path and with the best tube power supply.
According to my research the more tubes in the signal path, the more "fuzzy
haze" .

Originally Posted by wisnon

I would look for a pre with a
minimum number of tubes in signal path and with the best tube power supply.
According to my research the more tubes in the signal path, the more "fuzzy
haze".

And see...as much as anything; this perfectly illustrates my point, about why this is such a subjective topic. Some people really like that "haze"...lol

In fact...I'm trying to decide now, between staying in the 6922-based realm; or updating, if not upgrading...to 6H30s. Please...no need to cast your vote here; I've heard from some of you, and I'm having a tough enough time choosing

It's more to illustrate the conundrum. Do you want to be linear ("solid-state"), or more tube-y (and then again...there's kind of old-school tube-y, vs. new-school tube-y...lol). Do you want...fewer tubes, less rolling, but more reliability; or do you want the exotic mysteriousness, of playing the NOS field?

As always...what it really boils down to, is sound; and for me...sound is always dependent, on matching or synergy. Maybe if I had a REF 75...a 6H30-based pre-amp, is just what the doctor ordered. But with my DS-450...which does have its pros; I need to F A T T E N the signal up, as much as possible.


P.S.-Now I just need someone, to slide me their old LS-25 mkI!

Actually that haze is NOT the same as tubiness and that insight came from a mega designer I know. I rate him more than all others I know and I know quite a few.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Chris, here is an argument I got AGAINST the CCa being the "ultimate" or true "holy grail":
I am not a fan of
the ecc83 and 12x type tubes as i consider all double triodes flawed by design
(two amplification elements are never properly
aligned when used in parallel
and crosscouple into each other when used for different channels or
amplification stages).

That said, this is the extreme purist point of
view.

A well made amp using them in parallel config. can still deliver ,
even so a similar amp with single stage tubes of comparable design will add more
performance on top.

So single element triodes or pentodes come to mind
(most state of the art recording consoles of the golden age used pentodes, only
later double triodes, as they were cheaper.

I would look for a pre with a
minimum number of tubes in signal path and with the best tube power supply.
According to my research the more tubes in the signal path, the more "fuzzy
haze" .

How do you separate tubes vs. circuit e.g. the effect of a cathode follower in the pre or phono section? Or output transformers in amps? I really think you're getting in trouble trying to oversimplify things.

Originally Posted by mep

Can you describe "fuzzy haze" and how you think that relates to tubes? How do you know it's not circuit related vs. tube related? The CAT preamps use lots of tubes and I have never heard anyone refer to them as having a "fuzzy haze" sound. I owned a CAT preamp and I know I would never use that description. I also owned a Counterpoint SA-5.1 for many happy years and it's about as pure tube as it gets and it didn't fit your "fuzzy haze" label either. Ditto for the Counterpoint SA-2 pre-preamp.

You are making it too specific. I am not even sure that CAT uses dual triodes the way described above and the opinion also stated viable workarounds which they also may be using.

However, you are shifting the goalpost. I gave a scientific/engineering rationale and you conflate that with opinion on sound you have with your own experience which may or may not apply.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

How do you separate tubes vs. circuit e.g. the effect of a cathode follower in the pre or phono section? Or output transformers in amps? I really think you're getting in trouble trying to oversimplify things.

MYLES!!!!!!

How does that argument apply? Where did I mention circuit per se? The opinion started with a design rationale and elaborated why it was sub-optimal and gave viable workarounds. Downstream design elements are just that. They may be good or bad on their own and addititive or subtractive to the originally identified "problem". It all matters in the end for final results but if you start with a potential design flaw, you limit the potential height of the ceiling on performance.

"I" made no such statement. Go back and read my original post. I offered an alternative position given to me by someone else.