Thread: ?

Can anyone give me a link to a site that has a listing of tubes & their signature/tone/sound please?

Get a copy of Sound Practices by Joe Roberts .. here is a taste ..

http://www.timebanditaudio.com/300b/WE91A.pdf

Thanks for the help. I have looked here & followed all links. I have in the past come across the exact thing that I ask from a tube retailer but am damned if I can remember or find it. Will follow the links above & read up.

Gary, it was your attention that I was after alone. I see my cunning plan has worked!!

I hope this helps?, as I hear/see it, these sonic listings are spot on, and I've been tube rolling since 2000, and have found what I often refer to as the tubes that suit my ears/system and am off the bandwagon tube and component wise - it's nice being content with both, anyways, here you go:

https://www.tubeworld.com/12au7_guide2.gif

Great point Mike,

As my tube mentor taught me years ago, there's a tube for every circuit, and a circuit for every tube, but in my world, some tubes do it better then others, have anyone ever noticed that many of the Shindo Labs tube gear uses tubes from the likes of GE - Siemens and a few other that I find are more analytical in nature?, I think it's because Shindo gear while beautiful to my ears ( and the best tube gear I've heard to date, and no, I haven't heard it all ) has a slightly lushness to it that needs a greater sense of detailing in key areas, and warmer/richer/creamer tubes from the likes of the ones produced in England won't do ( oh there I go generalizing again - my bad ), but somewhere in between lies the truth - it's about what fits ones ear and system that's more important, but in my world - it's not current production based tubes, with the exception of maybe Russian power tubes.

But I'm biased - because I can hear said differences, and they do matter.

O_oh

Chris/Doug,

I hear that, but it's often hard to tell when something's are intended as such, it can at times feel as if someone is trying to challenge others good intentions, so maybe, just maybe?, we both get beyond this, it's all good, but then again - we are both from Michigan, and through it all, we have to stick together. What do you say........., live and let live, eh!.


No harm in expressing oneself, but never at the expense of others.


We good.


Regards,
O_oh

Doug,

I merely wanted to share the findings of one of my three tube mentors through all of this since 1999, and would love to hear your generalization on his words, as I found them to be spot on:

12ax7 and 12au7 tubes category recommendation - mdjukic99@yahoo.com - Tubes Asylum

Mike,

Thanks, it's just a sensible response to what I've heard during my travels, and as an Ex-Devore Fidelity Gibbon 3 owner - there's an unquestionable synergy thing going on between the likes of Shindo and Devore as well as fronted by a mere WTL Amadeus GTA and either a Dynavector or EMT Cartridge.

But to answer your question, I've not hear a prefect match of the Shindo stuff tied to any Wilson Audio Speakers to date.

But if possible?, try to find one of the Shindo Preamps, to my ears a great deal of their magical sound starts here - read between the lines, Beauty starts at the beginning of the component chain and moves downstream - but I'd be wrong!, not.

Doug,

True that, it is all subjective, and dude know that I meant you no harm, it's just that I'm coming away from several forums where some guys think that my intent is to steal their glory or followers if you will, but I'm here to learn/share like anyone else, and can admit I don't know it all, but when it comes to knowing what I hear/like, well that's a different story in itself.

Yet, if by chance you're ever close to Harper Woods?, I've some 12AX7s I think you'd adore, and our doors are always opened.

Be well,
O_oh

Hi Bob,

Yes, it can be useful if one knows how to read it?, and know that much like components - cabling looms - cartridges and so on, all of this stuff only comes in three flavors - warm - neutral and analytical, yet some aren't willing to admit it, or simply don't hear it.

Now onto your Baldwin labeled tubes - where they Black or Grey Plates?, Long or Short Plates?, as most common ones where from the likes of RCA - Sylvania and Raytheon.

RCA and Sylvania to my ears offer a warmer/creamier more relaxed textured sound, while Raytheon have a better focused sound with better bass definition, yet are harder hitting tubes when it comes to inner beauty. But as always, it's a matter of what sounds best to your ears?, in your room, and through your system that counts.

Be well,
O_o scar

It's all good, it was merely a chart to which I felt shows merit, and I've been tube rolling since 2001, and have owned nearly 78 different variants of the 12A_7 type tubes, but I can see where in fact the different sonics of various amps based upon the same design, can in fact alter the overall sonic picture just enough, where we'd hear these tubes differently.

See there, it's about one gaining a logical mindset into said different flavors as applied to the tube preamp or power amps circuitry, I got it.

The Quest continues...........

Originally Posted by Petro85

yes my quest continues as well. tube rolling is an endlesss process. im thinking of trying these tj full music 6sn7's for my amps. i think a matched quad is like $250. and they are the same company that makes the sophia 6sn7's , so im told. would be interesting considering im running sophia 300b's now. i been thinking on the rare nos 6sn7's as well and for the money they cost it would be heartbreaking if i didnt like them. i do have some old brimar and melz in there now and am loving the sound. but trying new ones is always fun.

Good morning Petro85,

Yes, the quest can be endless until we understand how certain combinations of tubes should be mixed to offset the weaknesses of both signal tubes or tubes further down the chain, weird thing is, I was about to recommend Brimar Black Glass CV1988/6SN7GTs ( as these are one of the most delicate, yet beautifully balanced ones I've heard to date ), but saw that you're already using them.

I've used TJ Music and Sophia 300B Mesh Plates in a fairly inexpensive Chinese Integrated I owned briefly called the Audio Renaissance LS-845 MK V, and absolutely adored them, but I'm somewhat biased towards Chinese tubes, as I merely question their long term reliability, as I've seen some last between 8 - 12 months, and thought at this rate, I'd be much better off merely paying more for tubes with better metal construction as well as glass work, because after you've taken into account if you were to replace these say 3 - 7 times in less then 6 years?, then better quality made NOS versions which would have a life spam approaching say 10.000 hours can in fact calculate into about an average of 3.5 hours use per day - everyday for nearly 10 years, then it becomes more obvious which then becomes a better investment.

And looking at the contents of your system, I'd say it deserves better made/sounding tubes built during a time where the resources were behind them, which costed millions and millions to develop - and then take into account just how many current produces of tubes, are willing to invest that much into said technology and/or machinery to match the overall quality of construction as well as sound of those designed during a time where tubes were the only game in town.

Even though some might see it differently?, even Russian designed tubes were made to last, they might not be as warm or cuddly as some might prefer!, but they are rugged, transparent and neutral as some might like, unless of course one is seeking to add sweetens to their sound to begin with?, I'm of the mindset that transparency and neutrality are were each of us should want the sonic of our systems to be!, but I'd be wrong.

Quality glass and alloy materials are in fact a thing of the past, those 50s, or in some rare cases tubes built upwards of 1963 wouldn't be duplicated sonically ever again, just food for thought.

Regards,
O_o scar

Originally Posted by CDLehner

You'll hear me say this a lot guys; passé as it might be. It's ALL good!

I love the hobby; don't love this brand, or that brand. I admire "fan-boys", for their passion; but I can't abide by a my-thing-is-better-than-your-thing approach.

I don't see my role here...to be the Interweb police, and crack cyber-heads. I'm here to contribute!

There's some heavy hitters in the Tank, no doubt; but for the last 10 years...I'd put my volume of gear tried, up against anyone's (though likely, not dollars spent )

I like to talk gear...talk music; explore the things, that drive us about the hobby. I like to stir it up. Note...that's not the same, as stir up trouble.

But...I'd like to think, I tend to color outside the lines a bit; and I'll challenge the status-quo...if for no other reason, than it makes for interesting and spirited debate (and usually...you learn a little something, about the "other" side).

If anything has a subtlety and complexity, to their analysis in this hobby; it's glass! So...it's a neat chart, or silly chart; depending on your POV and perspective. But no one meant to hold it up...as the last bastion, of what sound to expect, from said toobs.

H/ear Here.

I'm with you, once again, it's all subjective, and no one shoe will ever fit all.

Originally Posted by Petro85

good post very interesting. my amps came with 4 brimars and 1 was smashed up when i got them. so i pulled the other for backup and bought the 1950's melz russian tubes off nikolay(tube maze) and im also thinking about getting the 2nd pair of melz just to try them in the driver and input spots. the mullard cv378 rectifiers were smashed too. i bought a cheap pair just to get them quick then i replaced them with the 1964 mullard rectifiers and altogether i have a great sound going on right now. you can find my 300b tests in this area of the forum. and its on going im going to test the emission 300 b xls next as i just heard them in an integrated i was demoing at my house and loved the deep bass and big presentation. and im always open to finding new gems in the tube market.
so any recommendations would be appreciated.

Yes, it's becoming a very interesting post, but as I pride myself on studying things like the sonic differences of tubes - cartridges - cabling loom - isolation devices/platforms and of late the different metal plating on RCAs - Binding Post and AC Connectors, it's a never ending study on my part to merely better my system, and hopefully at some point get others to open their minds to the importance of " living with their systems ", instead of moving on to something different, but not better in regards to drawing us in on an emotional level.

Case in point, I see/hear tubes by EML and Kron as a more direct modern presentation of the renowned WE 300Bs which to my ears have a more human element/textural sound to them, whereas the other two are more about offering a more precise signature based upon the frequency extremes geared towards the top end and bottom as means of compensating for newer tube designs which offer a more linear sound ( better bandwidth and attack if you will ) but lack somewhat in the all important midrange - it's weird that while many Americans tend to chase exotic European based tubes, many of my foreign friends have always told me of their preferences for American tubes.

Even weirder is how we didn't appreciate the WE based tubes when we had them, yet the Japanese were keen enough to come over in the early/mid 70s and bought up all of them, is it because they heard something we did not?, or is it we were to busy pursuing power ( wattage ) as the expense of beauty of notes?.

I collect/use in my own system tubes made by two Japanese companies many haven't discussed or known about, but I know their worth in my mind, I also tend to love tubes made in France - Germany - Hungary and Poland, mostly overlooked because, most simply never told into account how to mix them with other tubes to create a collective synergy approach to sound, it's like using Telefunken's which I don't like ( just me ), but has anyone ever taken the time to figure out just now to bring about a more textured - delicate nature from them?, I've, and all that's needed is using them in tandem with just about any Sylvania Black Plate tube from the 50s, it simply adds a more refined sense of warmth to their highs and midband that's very addictive, but some merely haven't tried all the different variants of makes to know what works with what, and I've found through said means, which tubes for me have locked in the sonic signature in two integrated amps that I couldn't live without, especially having taken the time to know how to get the best performances from each.

O_oh, it's topics like this that move me to tears! and here I am enjoying writing again! as it seems to me! it's nicer here and more often then not, many here seem more grounded and willing to at least listen and know that some have gained more insight into some studies/fields then others, and this is one area where I can take on most challenges if need be, because if nothing else?, I know my tubes.

But hopefully God shall allow us to have plenty of time, to get through all of this?, I can only pray.

Originally Posted by dlb2

It really is a shame that all of the R&D, and lots of money, put into making the best quality tubes possible has been put out to pasture over the years. While I understand that there are fewer products that use tubes these days as well as regulations against some of the materials and processes of making tubes, it still makes me sad. The tubes of yesteryear will never be equalled, as far as I'm concerned, and years from now when what we call NOS tubes are but a memory, all of the new production tubes of today will be the NOS tubes of tomorrow. Look at SED. With that company now defunct there is at least one tube vendor calling these tubes NOS. I don't know what the future will bring but perhaps some new world federation will outlaw tubes-based devices altogether due to their high energy sucking ways. Audiophiles will gather in dark rooms in the basements of buildings huddled around the glow of a tube amp and listening to what used to be.

Doug,

How true on all counts, yet I'll be one of those gathered up in this darken room in someone's basement reminded of glory days gone by, but in reality as I see it, at least it will bring us together as a collective whole - as we once where back in the good olde days, when there was only about 7 channels of the Television ( and you being from Michigan, knew they were channel 2 - 4 - 7 - 9 - 20 - 50 and 56 ) but at least parents and their children shared these moments together - laughing and building fond memories as a unit, whereas these days, parents and their children " hide in separate " spaces throughout the home as if they don't have time to even sit down to have a decent meal or conversation together - key word here being " Together ".

Tube users are in fact a smaller percentage of what I see as ones in the know!, and being part of the extended family here, to me........., just feels right, as if I've been lost for some many years, but finally found a place where I can relax and put my feet up and feel part of something real, there's a vibe here that's seems rewarding in itself, and I like it.

Byron ( Sippers......on ) Thank you for mentioning this wonderful place to me months ago, it feels like home.

Here's wishing all of you a very productive life and years of enjoying that Orange/Blue Glow in the Dark!.

O_o scar

Thanks Mike,


I'm trying to share a little bit of insight on matters to which I find inviting to the table, as I was told by my three tube mentors - when it comes to knowing your tubes


" Knowledge is power ".


And these are the only guys I know whom own $400.000 systems and have collections of say 6.000 pairs of tubes each, so when they spoke.........., I pair attention, and guess what?, they knew what the hell they were talking about, while some would've us believe that Amperex - Mullard and Telefunken's are the only three brands worthy of pursuit to which I know is total BS, as I've heard/seen the light, and these were by stepping stones for the real ones, very few are aware of, such is the power of being open-minded enough to seek out the truth.


Regards,
O_o scar

Mike,

you've mail.

O_o scar, please feel free to add all & any information you have on tubes, for that is the very reason I started this thread. For someone who has very limited experience with rolling tubes, the thought is quite daunting, to say the least, with the determination of finding a tube amp but not knowing where to hit the ground running

Originally Posted by sharkmouth

O_o scar, please feel free to add all & any information you have on tubes, for that is the very reason I started this thread. For someone who has very limited experience with rolling tubes, the thought is quite daunting, to say the least, with the determination of finding a tube amp but not knowing where to hit the ground running

Hi Kev,

I can be reached directly at

Ei6ca7@yahoo.com

As there are something's that aren't meant to be shared where any/everyone can read it, as the supplies are dying up with each passing day, I fear that if I spoke to loudly........, that would in fact make them even harder for me to source.

I share provide a list that stays between us, at said time upon receiving your email.

And, I've enjoyed writing again, I guess it's about the vibe, and feeling as if I can actually speak my truth, without having to look over my shoulders as not to offend others, but I can only speak on matters as I see/believe/hear them to be - no need for lies here, only truth and growth, and a willingness to share with those of like minds.

Originally Posted by CDLehner

Man...is that the truth, when it comes to glass. One of the reasons, I shy away from NOS; is I don't know what the hell I'm buying!

I mean seriously; every once in a while, I wander back to Brent Jessee's...and my head starts to spin.

To look at them...I can't tell the 4-figure NOS, from the cheap crap. Correction; the expensive, NOS stuff...usually looks like sh*t, lol. And then there's the re-branding. I mean, what's to stop a guy from saying "these are 1950s Mullards; made at some famous factory. They're just branded, Acme Tubes"

No; IMO, tubes are definitely, the most mysterious and exotic...of the audio arts. Maybe that's the allure; there's nothing an audiophile loves more...than to be in the know.

Trying to buy NOS on (fleec)eBay...is like walking through an active mine-field.

Why CD,

Of course it's the truth dude........, but the thing is studying the internal structure of any given tubes as shown on the tube monger . com site which has an in-depth photo library on said various tubes, afterwards it's just like finding a dealers whom ears and components you like/trust - much like finding a tube vendor or dealer nearby, it's the same with eBay, some tube sellers are in fact selling crap arsed tubes, and don't seriously know what they're selling themselves - but this can lead to some relabeled tubes that just might be worth say $500/pr being obtainable for $20/pr in some cases, I've come across tubes for said price, and later found out they were worth $3.000 per pair, do you think I sold them or kept them?, they're still with me, as I see some of them as investments, much like smarter buyers back between 1968 till about 1982/89 would've held onto all those WE 300Bs!.

The thing is finding sellers whom you can trust, and know what's real or fake?, I'd much rather listen to NOS tubes then have to settle on what's placed into any given tube amp because that's what the builder/designer had lying around, with the exception being of course Shindo Labs which is the only company that I'm aware of that uses NOS as part of its gear initial design concept before hand, because he understands the character of each internal component used during their development and voiced each piece accordingly.

Afterall, all Square - Bent/Angled Square - Horseshoe/U Shaped - Foil - D " Getters " and here it's stops........., Large O " Getters " aren't all the same, and one just has to research deeper into the possibilities, much like in life, it's hit or miss in the women we decide to marry, but something's are refundable/returnable, are they not!.

Buy quality once ( tubes or your bride ) or continue to settle/suffer through it all, not knowing what you've missed. The choices of life, I'd say.

Walk lightly through that mine-field as the rewards in the long term are well worth it.