Thread: Suggestions needed for a vinyl newbie

Rob

Is that Shure Premium a 75,91 or a 95 body? Also if you are looking for a "wood" TT you might want to look for a JVC QL series, the Denon DP's or a Sanyo Q50.

Thanks for the great info! Bonus points go to Bob for the pics! I thought it looked pretty dirty but wow, that's really bad. I haven't played anything on it since the day I got it because I want to make sure everything is correct before I damage anything. It's not like the LPs I got are pristine, but I don't want to damage them any further.

I am going to pick up a Magic Eraser and I am also going to order some of that good stylus cleaner. I'm assuming that when I clean it that I take the stylus off or?

I'm heading out of town for the weekend so I won't get to play around with it until next week. On the plus side, I'll probably be able to hit up a record shop or two to see if I can't pick up a few albums and hopefully take advantage of some black Friday deals.

Originally Posted by Matt715

After some searching and luck, I managed to find a minty one owner Pioneer PL-530 on Craigslist. The owner also threw in 10 LPs to get my library started. The only downside is that it was a 5 hour round trip to go and get it, but I didn't mind the drive since it was a nice day.

I want to thank everyone for their input and give a special thanks to Rob (Ohbythebay), for his patience and expertise.

Here's a quick cellphone pic of it playing The Dark Side of the Moon:



Attachment 3890

Well done Matt!!! I have a PL530 as well. Nice and weighty, is it not? Weighty is good! Another nice thing about this table is that it's both automatic and manual. Not only is this a good first table,but will be satisfying a bit beyond that.

Originally Posted by Matt715

Thanks for the great info! Bonus points go to Bob for the pics! I thought it looked pretty dirty but wow, that's really bad. I haven't played anything on it since the day I got it because I want to make sure everything is correct before I damage anything. It's not like the LPs I got are pristine, but I don't want to damage them any further.

I am going to pick up a Magic Eraser and I am also going to order some of that good stylus cleaner. I'm assuming that when I clean it that I take the stylus off or?

I'm heading out of town for the weekend so I won't get to play around with it until next week. On the plus side, I'll probably be able to hit up a record shop or two to see if I can't pick up a few albums and hopefully take advantage of some black Friday deals.

No, you never take the cart off to clean it. Just a dip of the needle into the magic eraser before playing each side is all you need. What's really important as well is clean records. That's a whole separate subject.

Originally Posted by NorthStar

Record cleaning machines come at several price points; anywhere from few hundred dollars to several thousand dollars.

The best one (imo) is the KLAudio machine ($4,000).

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If you are truly serious about spinning vinyl in a serious "spinning" way, you are simply not! ...If you haven't a KLAudio record cleaning machine; you're just having fun playing records.
That's just my own personal/humble and serious opinion though; me opinion.
{I don't have one, I just read about it; Analog Planet.}

Sorry, but I'm afraid I must disagree. I know it's not your quote, it's Analog Planet, but that quote about spinning vinyl goes against everything this hobby is about. Listening to vinyl is supposed to be fun. If it isn't then what is it's purpose? Also, let's not scare Matt away from cleaning records by possibly letting him think that you have to get a $4k machine if you only have a handful of records or even 600 records. (If you have 4 digits of records a serious consideration of a KLAudio type machine would be in order). First of all, it is not proven that the $4k KLAudio machine is THE best RCM out there. It is, however one of a number of great RCMs, no doubt about that. What puts it's nose out front for me personally is the reports that it is quiet and fully auto, but I personally could never justify an extra $3300 for that. I can list off other RCMs just as good ranging from $650 to $4k. (I'd love to try a KLAudio for science purposes someday as I have zero interest in owning one, but I don't see that opportunity happening).

Rob

Does that Premier have a flat bottom or a rounded bottom. Either way you can put a JICO sourced EVG elliptical on if for less than $15 and have a pretty good rock or test cartridge.

I agree, that will work fine for starters.

Originally Posted by Mikado463

Bob, I understand your point, but as someone who has been into vinyl for fifty plus years my VPI RCM suits me just fine, besides 4k can buy me a lot of new Lp's !! ……….. or perhaps a new shotgun !!

Same here on the VPI. Oh dear! what would the shot gun be for? The stubborn records that don't clean up? LOL!

Originally Posted by ohbythebay

I don't think the VPI is in Matt;s Wheelhouse right now (not after I get through with him anyway...lol)

VPI's run about 400 used, 600+ new...

I would lean Matt toward the spin clean for now...with 10 albums and just shucking out some cash, it might be a good option...

Vinyl Record Cleaner and Washing System | Spin Clean Record Washing System

Absolutely, with just 10 LPs a spin clean is the best choice for now. I'd wait until reaching around 300 to 400 albums before investing in a VPI or what have you. Meanwhile, a spin clean with maybe a homemade vacuum rig will do nicely. It's not the machine that cleans, it's the method and fluids and of course the elimination of said dirts.

Originally Posted by NorthStar

Dave, are you familiar with Michael Fremer's website, Analog Planet, I bet you are.
Also are you in the known of WBF website? ...And some of its high caliber members? ...Mike Lavigne for example. ...Christian.
If you already are I won't provide any links, and if not I'll post some links in that other KLAudio RCM thread I started not too long ago.

Fifty years into vinyl is serious music listening.

* My main interest in life is to discover all the mysteries contained in it, and my hobbies are valid and rewarding (music, cinema, nature, and people).
So that's mainly why we are talking you and I right now; it's a forum that reunites us because of similar hobbies we share in life.
And there are many more people like us, and what each one of us does personally in his life (true reality) is restricted by what we don't do.
And that part of "what we don't do" is the part I'm mainly interested in because some other people they do. I learn from them people, irregardless of if I do or don't do.

Money is not important for me; I'm at a point where I'm way beyond that. I respect equally people who are rich, and people who are poor.
I just want to share with everyone what I learned from life regarding the same hobbies we developed and cherished over our lifetime . ...The music in its best emotional reproduction possible.
...And for all the classes; rich, poor, middle.

See, I'm totally neutral; no bias, no ego. My life is part of everyone's life (we all live on the same planet).

- Your VPI RCM, how much did she cost you? ...Just to check if it's a viable option for Matt.

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Matt is going to need a phono stage too (phono preamp).

I follow the philosophy of don't believe everything you read on the internet. I prefer to verify things for myself as best I can given the opportunity. If I can't verify it, I don't go any further. Of course, I'm also very skeptical with a few drops of cynical. I have to be, it's protection.
In my view, the only importance of money unfortunately, is for things like rent, bills, healthcare, food, etc. With things the way they are one does need to be careful about what one invests in. For those of us outside the audiophile circle, money is hard to come by and we must be wise with it.
As to an RCM for Matt, with only 10 albums, a VPI or any other three digit or more RCM would not be a good investment right now.
As for needing a phono stage, that depends on what he is hooking the table up to. If he is using a good vintage/legacy receiver, he won't need a phono preamp. Otherwise, an ART will suit nicely for now until he can upgrade.

I don't think that a $4,000 RCM would ever be in my future! What is in my future is a $4,000 furnace. I woke up yesterday and my house was a crisp 51 degrees. After a quick service call, the repair tech said that my furnace is on it's last legs. Oh well!

I would eventually like to get something like a Spin Clean, but right now I'm more interested in getting everything up and running correctly. Baby steps, you know!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

jtp.jpg

Originally Posted by NorthStar

Eric, some people you can trust, like Mikey Fremer, Mike Lavigne, Christian (rocketman); with a little bit of salt & pepper.
... And others, you read, still respect, but keep on riding.

With hundred albums or so in one's collection, the KLAudio machine ain't for them.
But for someone with a serious LP collection (5,000-20,000), and with several masters and remasters (best versions; 45rpm, 200gr, 24k gold vinyl, etc.) the KLAudio machine is for them. Them people have a serious analog rig as well.

Matt definitely doesn't fit that last category, neither you, neither I (I still have about 5,000 LPs though), and that, it is what it is. ...You assess your target, aim, and pull the trigger in hope of your best shot.

I don't know who Mike Lavigne or Christian is, but I may not need to know I would imagine as I am just not into gear beyond what I need and what I have learned as an aside. For me, this hobby is about the music at least 95%. I do not trust Mike Fremer when it comes to purchasing advice. At least he actually takes a hands on approach to reviewing the gear, unlike some other folks. I just tend to disagree with his conclusions. Everything else he's alright in my book, but not the last word.

With 5000 LPs Bob, you do fit into the catagory of a KLAudio machine! I have had unquestionable, fabulous success with my methodology, fluids and VPI, but if I had anywhere near 5000 records I would not want to clean them that way. I'd be dying for a KLAudio or similar.
~Eric

Originally Posted by Matt715

I don't think that a $4,000 RCM would ever be in my future! What is in my future is a $4,000 furnace. I woke up yesterday and my house was a crisp 51 degrees. After a quick service call, the repair tech said that my furnace is on it's last legs. Oh well!

I would eventually like to get something like a Spin Clean, but right now I'm more interested in getting everything up and running correctly. Baby steps, you know!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Sorry to hear this Matt. Well, just know for future that used records are very inexpensive as is a Spinclean, so you'll eventually get such items. If you celebrate xmas, you can always throw a Spinclean on your wishlist.
Yes, baby-steps and slow are the best way to do audio! (That way you don't make any or too many lateral moves wasting money).

Originally Posted by NorthStar

Mikey is Mikey; he's a funny guy, and an analog expert. I like Mikey, just the way he is; he's not perfect, but so nobody else. ...And he's got a great sense of humor, and he's not afraid of speaking his own mind. I accept him all off him the way he is, and I respect him of course.
I've been reading him since he first started writing.

* Mike Lavigne and Christian are two members from WBF, and are highly calibrated in the turntable domain. ...Everything related. Their analog rigs are top-notch, and all the ingredients surrounding them to make them sound better are there!
I have great respect for them both too. Mike is a very friendly person, generous in his hospitality, very knowledgeable (I learn/learned quite a few from him), and Christian has also an amazing analog rig, and he's a more direct person (doesn't shy of speaking his mind directly). Mike is more diplomatic, more polite, and he's also into digital, big time.
But I love them both equally, that's just the way I am.
...Same for Mikey (Fremer).



My albums Eric are the regular type, not the remastered versions (45rpm and all) that some of them cost $50 to $100.
And half of them are used ones (not purchased brand new). ...They are the ones actually who would benefit the most from the KLAudio machine.
Perhaps in the future, when I'm fully retired and have all the time in this world to clean my LPs, lol.
By that time I'll have a World Music Server of the Highest Audio Resolution. ...And I'll be smoking crack!

I also don't know what WBF is, but again, it's irrelevant.
All my albums are used, regular versions and nothing over $5, but granted I only have about 300. Being handy at cleaning/restoring them provides for more music and having a VPI 16.5 for that amount of records is slightly overkill and about as far as I'll ever need to take it.

Over the weekend I cleaned the stylus the best I could with a magic eraser and a small brush. I would say that it's 75% clean now; not quite as good as Bob's pictures, but at least I can see metal and a sharp point. I finally received my gram scale today and was able to check the rest of the settings. It appears to me that everything is set properly; so why does this thing sound so disappointing? I have no soundstage, no separation, and no treble. It really sounds lousy to my ears.

I am still planning on picking up some Last stylus cleaner so I can thoroughly clean the stylus. I can't imagine it's going to make the difference I need to be happy.

Any ideas?

Can I use a safety pin as a new stylus?

I was kind of thinking of the AT-440MLA. Going by what people say about it, it sounds like it might be right up my alley. I tend to like a slightly forward presentation. I wish it was still around $100 like it was a few years ago, but such is life.

Let's say a budget of $200 and see where that gets me. I am hesitant to spend more because again, this is more or less an experiment. I also have to save my pennies for a new furnace.

Matt

If you want to stay with the Stanton/Pickering family of cartridges let me know as I may be able to help. I can point you in the direction of a new NOS replacement or if you want help you from my "rainy day stash" of NOS styli. There are plenty of options out there if you have a budget in mind. Just today I mounted an Acutex 312STR with a Shibata stylus that I bought NIB for under $80 shipped from Italy. It sounds great and a lot like the Stanton/Pickering sound. What you are describing is a clean but worn out stylus. Also check the wiring from the headshell to the cartridge and make sure it is not wired out of phase.

Originally Posted by NorthStar

Matt, how can you be certain that your stylus is not fully clean? ...It takes only few seconds. ...And not all styluses have the same shape; some are elliptical, others conical, others longer, others shorter, some have more cuts, others less.
But the picture I previously provided is from the same cartridge than yours, so the stylus should also be the exact same.

* With a brand new cartridge (roughly $200), a decent Pioneer vintage turntable (belt drive and in very good condition; about $500-600), a phono preamp section from a decent preamp, all my adjustments from years of knowledge (tracking force, arm adjust, level, speed accurate, etc.), and a brand new album (regular price); there is simply no way that I can get close to my digital CD player (about $1,200).

But! I'm no analog expert. I just know enough to set things up enough and running, even by being anal sometimes.
And I've been spinning albums since I was thirteen (45 years). And spinning CDs since 1985 (28 years).

But that's me! And my own life with my own set of ears attached to my own head.

That brings me back to the whole "CD vs vinyl" argument. I'm not supposed to compare the sound to a CD, so what is it supposed to sound like? FM radio? AM radio? Again, I've never really heard a budget TT setup besides the Rega room at Axpona; it sounded wonderful for what it was.

I would be happy if I could get it to sound like what I hear from my Squeezebox but ecstatic if it had the detail and huge soundstage that my Oppo has.

Am I expecting too much?

Originally Posted by Jack

Matt

If you want to stay with the Stanton/Pickering family of cartridges let me know as I may be able to help. I can point you in the direction of a new NOS replacement or if you want help you from my "rainy day stash" of NOS styli. There are plenty of options out there if you have a budget in mind. Just today I mounted an Acutex 312STR with a Shibata stylus that I bought NIB for under $80 shipped from Italy. It sounds great and a lot like the Stanton/Pickering sound. What you are describing is a clean but worn out stylus. Also check the wiring from the headshell to the cartridge and make sure it is not wired out of phase.

Thanks for the offer- I guess I'm not sure if I should stay with it or not. Is there any way to check to see if my cartridge is any good? I did check the wiring against the info I found over on AK forum; it is correct.

Originally Posted by NorthStar

The entire analog rig (including amp, preamp, and speakers); how much?



You're dreaming Matt; for that you need to go back to your bank and make a bigger withdrawal.



It depends. How much do you have left in the bank.

Snipped from Stereophile's website:

031113-Rega-600.jpg

In Room 806, one word said it all: Rega. Demming the Rega RP8 turntable with Rega Exact 2 cartridge ($3400), Rega Apollo R CD player ($1095), Rega Brio R integrated amp with phono stage ($895), and Rega RS3 floor-standing speakers ($1395/pair), the nattily bow-tied Barnaby Fry of The Sound Organisation was having a ball playing Johnny Adams' From the Heart. The system did best on Adams' voice—the voice was great—but when the blues artist sang, "I can't control the vibrations," I'm afraid he was talking about the limitations of the system's bottom reach and bass control. (For starters, I don't believe power conditioning or special equipment supports were in use.) But on voice and piano, Rega x 4 = very nice.

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I don't remember them using the TT on the top; I thought it was the one on the second shelf but I could be wrong. When I entered the room, they were playing a CD and, to be honest, it sounded pretty awful. Then the salesman switched to the TT and it became a totally different system. I came away really impressed with what those little speakers could do. The guy sitting in front of me even turned around and commented to me how great it sounded.

Matt

If you have a DMM you can check the cartridge to see if it meets spec's by testing the positive and negative posts on each side. For the Stanton 68x series you should get a reading of approximately 1300 ohms on each pair. It is rare for a cartridge to go bad unless is has been abused. More than likely the stylus is just worn out. If so you need to decide based on your other equipment what sound profile you like. The Stanton's, which are the Broadcast Industry Standard, are pretty much dead neutral. Other brands have their own flavor. What flavor appeals to you only you know. I like neutral, but others on this forum like Rob, like forward. So in the end it is your call. A properly set up TT will always in my opinion beat a digital source. If you like the more forward sound of the AT's and don't want to spend for their current price then buy a 120E/T for less and you get the same sound profile.

Originally Posted by Jack

Matt

If you have a DMM you can check the cartridge to see if it meets spec's by testing the positive and negative posts on each side. For the Stanton 68x series you should get a reading of approximately 1300 ohms on each pair. It is rare for a cartridge to go bad unless is has been abused. More than likely the stylus is just worn out. If so you need to decide based on your other equipment what sound profile you like. The Stanton's, which are the Broadcast Industry Standard, are pretty much dead neutral. Other brands have their own flavor. What flavor appeals to you only you know. I like neutral, but others on this forum like Rob, like forward. So in the end it is your call. A properly set up TT will always in my opinion beat a digital source. If you like the more forward sound of the AT's and don't want to spend for their current price then buy a 120E/T for less and you get the same sound profile.

I tested my cart with my trusty Fluke and the right side has a resistance of 1242 ohms and the left side 1238 ohms. I think I agree with everyone's diagnosis of a worn out stylus.

I guess I have a decision to make; try one of the AT cartridges or fix what I've got. I guess I have some reading to do.