Thread: Analog System Questions

This is going to sound like a strange question but it is serious. I have someone coming tomorrow to give me an estimate on purchasing 7’ of vinyl from the 60s-90s. Some of it shows use but many of the albums were only played once or twice to copy to cassette using a Nakamachi deck. There is not a lot of noise, clicks, or pops and the albums are not warped. Covers are in excellent condition. I do not have to decide on selling the albums immediately but I do want to make a decision soon about my entire vinyl system.

My TT had long ago expired so a couple of years ago I decided to resurrect my collection. I needed new music, even if it was old. I have a lot of music on vinyl that I do not have on digital and many of the CDs of early music are not that good. I purchased a TT and cleaner and did a marathon cleaning of 100 albums and used new sleeves. Compared to my excellent digital setup the vinyl sounds horrible. Vinyl is 2-dimensional and lacking in the harmonic structure that defines a guitar or even drums. My Sound Lab speakers are capable of so much more than the vinyl setup is revealing.

I have been to many large audio shows and the best rooms were most often vinyl and tubes. I did not expect to reach that level but what I have is not listenable. The TT was set up by a dealer who has at least 24 TTs in his store so he is serious and doesn’t just have a TT or two because customers expect it.

Is my system too far toward the bottom end? Am I expecting too much from it? Is there a reasonable way to salvage it? I know there is always something better and someone is immediately going to recommend a $5K cartridge and a $500 mat. That is not going to happen. All the dealer would tell me was I needed to buy all new, modern pressings. If that is the case why are older albums still desirable? Replacing all my vinyl does not make sense to me and it definitely is not the reason I purchased new equipment.

My analog system:

VPI Prime in Walnut with Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge.
VPI cleaning machine HW-16.5
Zesto Audio Andros 1.2 phono pre
Cardas Cygnus Phono 1.25M RCA/RCA

Please ignore me if you find my post too bizarre. Perhaps this is only part of the grieving process of letting go of so many hours spent and memories etched.

Looks like you have a good set up to, me. I'm not sure what the issue might be. I do know that some older titles just weren't produced well.

Though your LP's may be old some of them could be very good pressings. Names really escape me sometimes, there's that website where the guy buys up all of the same titles and ranks them, some may be anewer stamp than others.

I assume the dealer did cartridge overhang, alignment, and tracking force. But did he make any comments or calibration about azimuth (phase / crosstalk), or have any comments about how it sounded after he set everything up?

I don't think buying modern pressings would matter, unless you are typically listening to recent music on your digital setup and that's your reference point. What digital setup you're comparing it to?

Originally Posted by NekoAudio

I assume the dealer did cartridge overhang, alignment, and tracking force. But did he make any comments or calibration about azimuth (phase / crosstalk), or have any comments about how it sounded after he set everything up?

I don't think buying modern pressings would matter, unless you are typically listening to recent music on your digital setup and that's your reference point. What digital setup you're comparing it to?

I am not sure what the dealer did. His only comments were I needed to buy new vinyl. At the time I was using the phono input of an integrated amp. I thought that might be a limiting factor so I purchased the Zesto.

My specific digital components are irrelevant. I do not need to compare my analog system to my digital system to know the analog system sucks in a major way.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

I am not sure what the dealer did.

that tells me right there you don't belong in analog. Move along to digital, don't look back and while you're at it change up the whiskey you drink as well .......

Originally Posted by Dizzie

This is going to sound like a strange question but it is serious. I have someone coming tomorrow to give me an estimate on purchasing 7’ of vinyl from the 60s-90s. Some of it shows use but many of the albums were only played once or twice to copy to cassette using a Nakamachi deck. There is not a lot of noise, clicks, or pops and the albums are not warped. Covers are in excellent condition. I do not have to decide on selling the albums immediately but I do want to make a decision soon about my entire vinyl system.

My TT had long ago expired so a couple of years ago I decided to resurrect my collection. I needed new music, even if it was old. I have a lot of music on vinyl that I do not have on digital and many of the CDs of early music are not that good. I purchased a TT and cleaner and did a marathon cleaning of 100 albums and used new sleeves. Compared to my excellent digital setup the vinyl sounds horrible. Vinyl is 2-dimensional and lacking in the harmonic structure that defines a guitar or even drums. My Sound Lab speakers are capable of so much more than the vinyl setup is revealing.

I have been to many large audio shows and the best rooms were most often vinyl and tubes. I did not expect to reach that level but what I have is not listenable. The TT was set up by a dealer who has at least 24 TTs in his store so he is serious and doesn’t just have a TT or two because customers expect it.

Is my system too far toward the bottom end? Am I expecting too much from it? Is there a reasonable way to salvage it? I know there is always something better and someone is immediately going to recommend a $5K cartridge and a $500 mat. That is not going to happen. All the dealer would tell me was I needed to buy all new, modern pressings. If that is the case why are older albums still desirable? Replacing all my vinyl does not make sense to me and it definitely is not the reason I purchased new equipment.

My analog system:

VPI Prime in Walnut with Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge.
VPI cleaning machine HW-16.5
Zesto Audio Andros 1.2 phono pre
Cardas Cygnus Phono 1.25M RCA/RCA

Please ignore me if you find my post too bizarre. Perhaps this is only part of the grieving process of letting go of so many hours spent and memories etched.

Your post is not at all bizarre. It’s a tough decision to make as there are a lot more things involved with vinyl playback than fidelity.

As I improved my vinyl and digital systems they began to sound more and more alike.
My best sources are still vinyl but digital versions sound better on many of the vinyl titles I own.
If I didn’t already own a lot of records I’m not sure I’d get into it.

So I’m not an unrecoverable vinyl nutjob.

You’ve got a good setup. Great phono stage. Great turntable. The cartridge is the weak link. This is my opinion of course, but I’ve never liked the inexpensive Ortofon cartridges.

So if you are at a crossroads and want to throw another $2k to $3k at your vinyl system you may get a result that pleases you. Or not. That’s the risk. You’ve already said you don’t wan’t to do that, so I get it.

Or you can try for another setup - because there are a lot of levers to pull in setup that impact the overall sound. The setup would include geometry, VTF, VTA, Azimuth, and anti-skate. Ideally it would be done in your home. I would not assume your dealer knows what they are doing. They may, or may not. It’s a crap shoot and fewer and fewer people truly know how to set up a high end turntable.

Vinyl setup is an art that few have mastered.

Maybe your dealer can provide a demo for you.

At any rate good luck, you’re in a tough spot and there is no right answer.

Reading the replies and your post again I agree the cartridge is the weak link. You have a stellar phono stage and table. I like Ortofon but you should be using the 2nd tier MC carts. I think the Bronze used to be around $1800 but I'm sure is higher now. For more excitement go to the Black. Maybe your dealer would be willing to bring a couple carts over for audition. The 2m is a decent cart but not on par with the rest of your analogue rig.

Dizzie,

Vinyl playback is a slog and lots of work to get right or as right as you can get it. If you're not willing (or don't know how) to do your own setup/tweaking for adjustments maybe it is time to walk away. Seems like maybe the dealer-cart-setup is the suspect here at play? Confirming for yourself (and not taking a dealer for their word) that tracking weight, azimuth, antiskate and SRA/VTA are correct is about the only way to know for sure. If these adjustments are dialed in and the sound is still not to your liking then yeah, step away.

In my experience, adding a bit more tracking weight (up to +.5g) and adjusting the stylus rake angle usually creates the most change in sonic signature of a vinyl playback system. In particular, if you can easily adjust the SRA via VTA you can tune the sound from thin and anemic to thick and fat. Finding the middle is the key.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do and keep enjoying the music with or without the vinyl.

Mike

I agree with others here in that I believe your weakest link is the cartridge. What I experienced was that until I got to a certain point on my MC cartridge my analog rig just didn't engage me. However once I found a great analog dealer and listening to a truly great cartridge on a great table there was no going back. At this point my analog front end is my preferred listening source generally but as always the mastering is really important and I have CD's that sound better than the vinyl when the vinyl mastering was more of an afterthought. Good luck but if you are trying to stay within a lower budget on the analog side and you have a really good digital front end then you may want to consider sticking to digital ... that can be really good too! Just do whatever you enjoy most!

George

Ditto on the comments about the cartridge being the weakest link. The VPI Prime and the Zesto Andros 1.2 are very good. There are several good cartridge options in the $1K range that would provide you better dynamics and more top end: Ortofon 2M Black LVB; Dynavector DV-20X2L; Soundsmith Carmen MK2… to mention just a few.

Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

I am not sure what the dealer did.

Well, I guess it is possible the dealer did not really do any cartridge setup / calibration. Although my assumption would be it was done at setup time since you mentioned they are an experienced turntable dealer. You could ask what steps they took?

Like others said, the 2M Bronze might not be the sound character you're looking for, but I don't really think the 2M Bronze would translate into a 2-dimensional presentation that fails to reproduce instrument timbre.

Good point, his rig is certainly ready for some nice carts but the 2mBronze shouldn't sound terrible, it's the next step down from, the Black.

Originally Posted by NekoAudio

Well, I guess it is possible the dealer did not really do any cartridge setup / calibration. Although my assumption would be it was done at setup time since you mentioned they are an experienced turntable dealer. You could ask what steps they took?

Like others said, the 2M Bronze might not be the sound character you're looking for, but I don't really think the 2M Bronze would translate into a 2-dimensional presentation that fails to reproduce instrument timbre.

That's all solid analog gear. I'm a huge vinyl-head, but I can still enjoy even a cheap Fluance RT85 with 2M Blue (below the Bronze) without perceiving "2D" sound or any other such severe deficiencies. It makes me suspect either there's something wrong with the setup or you really don't have a predilection for analog! But the problem is definitely NOT any of those components individually. I guess the usual big variable with vinyl is to look at feedback issues and isolation - it can be a challenge when in proximity to big speakers. Good headphones (like Sennheiser HD600) can be a good tool for diagnosing & eliminating this variable. Your dealer needs to step up here!! Or any local analog buddies.

Also: your Zesto uses an internal SUT for the MC setup and that can cause problems for some MC cartidge and ALL MM cartridges (like your Bronze). Really make sure that is bypassed in your setup! MM mode only for the Bronze. It also needs to see a 47K ohm input impedance. I've had a few "oops" moments in my own system from improper SUT configurations. I'm a huge fan of SUTs for MC cartridges but they can go very wrong real quick if you're not careful

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. You have confirmed my thought that the cartridge is the weakest link. Unfortunately I do not know what to do to fix that. If I only spend a little more I will only get an incremental improvement. I need a monumental improvement. That points to spending more and taking a bigger risk. I do not know what cartridge to buy and how to get it properly installed. The dealer I used before is several hours away through nasty traffic which I avoid to the max. I did contact him for suggestions. Sometimes he is in my area.

I received an unexpectedly generous offer for my used vinyl but parting with it is still difficult. Used equipment I have for sale is not selling so I am not anxious to jump in with analog equipment to sell also. To further complicate matters I do not have room for my phono pre and DAC in my rack at the same time so I have to periodically swap from vinyl to digital.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

You have confirmed my thought that the cartridge is the weakest link. Unfortunately I do not know what to do to fix that. If I only spend a little more I will only get an incremental improvement. I need a monumental improvement. That points to spending more and taking a bigger risk. I do not know what cartridge to buy and how to get it properly installed.

Well, I'm about 2 hours away from Sacramento, carry Ortofon, and have the equipment and software to perform a thorough calibration. Wally Engineering is even closer, at about 1.5 hours away, and can do precise cartridge measurement and calibration. Getting things calibrated properly can mean the difference between a focused presentation versus one where the music is smeared and has greater distortion.

I'm still not convinced that the 2M Bronze is the problem, but the 2M Black and 2M Black LVB are both designed to have greater detail retrieval, clarity, and a more neutral presentation. It could be the 2M Bronze plus the Zesto tubes are in combination too much in the wrong direction while a 2M Black would be closer on the spectrum to your goal even though it is only a little more expensive.

If you want a monumental improvement, then you could go with the moving coil Cadenza Bronze or Black, but I think that approaches your system being somewhat unbalanced in terms of the financial investment in components. I also share your worry that you might purchase a more expensive cartridge and still not achieve the sound you're looking for. Plus like mulveling mentioned, the Zesto's SUT will also have an impact on the sound of a moving coil cartridge.

The main reason I asked what your other components are is because you said you're happy with the way things sound with digital playback. Knowing what your other components are could help me understand what that sound is.

What do you have for sale?

I'm not sure what's going on I've had my ML 532h for sale for about 2 months.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. You have confirmed my thought that the cartridge is the weakest link. Unfortunately I do not know what to do to fix that. If I only spend a little more I will only get an incremental improvement. I need a monumental improvement. That points to spending more and taking a bigger risk. I do not know what cartridge to buy and how to get it properly installed. The dealer I used before is several hours away through nasty traffic which I avoid to the max. I did contact him for suggestions. Sometimes he is in my area.

I received an unexpectedly generous offer for my used vinyl but parting with it is still difficult. Used equipment I have for sale is not selling so I am not anxious to jump in with analog equipment to sell also. To further complicate matters I do not have room for my phono pre and DAC in my rack at the same time so I have to periodically swap from vinyl to digital.

Originally Posted by NekoAudio

Well, I'm about 2 hours away from Sacramento, carry Ortofon, and have the equipment and software to perform a thorough calibration. Wally Engineering is even closer, at about 1.5 hours away, and can do precise cartridge measurement and calibration. Getting things calibrated properly can mean the difference between a focused presentation versus one where the music is smeared and has greater distortion.

I'm still not convinced that the 2M Bronze is the problem, but the 2M Black and 2M Black LVB are both designed to have greater detail retrieval, clarity, and a more neutral presentation. It could be the 2M Bronze plus the Zesto tubes are in combination too much in the wrong direction while a 2M Black would be closer on the spectrum to your goal even though it is only a little more expensive.

If you want a monumental improvement, then you could go with the moving coil Cadenza Bronze or Black, but I think that approaches your system being somewhat unbalanced in terms of the financial investment in components. I also share your worry that you might purchase a more expensive cartridge and still not achieve the sound you're looking for. Plus like mulveling mentioned, the Zesto's SUT will also have an impact on the sound of a moving coil cartridge.

The main reason I asked what your other components are is because you said you're happy with the way things sound with digital playback. Knowing what your other components are could help me understand what that sound is.

Thank you for your offer. Simultaneously my dealer offered to come over to check the setup and bring a different cartridge. But I have made my decision. I like the offer I received for buying my vinyl. I am going to exit vinyl and return to enjoying music.

I feel going deeper down the vinyl rabbit hole will only bring disappointment. As you mention, spending more money is no guarantee. At the same time I feel my digital system is almost endgame. The next bump up the line from what I have would cost 2-2.5X.

Aurender N20 into a Bricasti M3 via AES/EBU (Audience Front Row or Cardas Clear)

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

What do you have for sale?

I'm not sure what's going on I've had my ML 532h for sale for about 2 months.

6.5M Cardas Clear XLR pair
JPS Labs Aluminata speaker cable
Audio Mirror Toubadour III SE DAC
Analog gear listed in my first post.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

Thank you for your offer. Simultaneously my dealer offered to come over to check the setup and bring a different cartridge. But I have made my decision. I like the offer I received for buying my vinyl. I am going to exit vinyl and return to enjoying music.

You're welcome. Enjoying the music is the most important thing.

Originally Posted by NekoAudio

You're welcome. Enjoying the music is the most important thing.

A lot of my neighbors enjoy barbecuing. I think it is too much work. I tell them I like the eating but not the "sport".

What did you mean by his analog system becoming unbalanced? What is your rule of thumb for cost of table vs cart vs preamp? Sincerely. My cart is about a 1/3 the cost of my table. I wonder if I over spent on the cart.

My friend has a basic Sota, a PS Audio phono stage, he has an old Audioquest cart which is made by Lyra. I would guess the cart is about the same price as the table with inflation. The sound he got from that rig was amazing, I couldn't believe it. I'm thinking that cart must be out of this world good.

I'm wondring if there is such a thing as imbalance in analog within reason.

Originally Posted by NekoAudio

Well, I'm about 2 hours away from Sacramento, carry Ortofon, and have the equipment and software to perform a thorough calibration. Wally Engineering is even closer, at about 1.5 hours away, and can do precise cartridge measurement and calibration. Getting things calibrated properly can mean the difference between a focused presentation versus one where the music is smeared and has greater distortion.

I'm still not convinced that the 2M Bronze is the problem, but the 2M Black and 2M Black LVB are both designed to have greater detail retrieval, clarity, and a more neutral presentation. It could be the 2M Bronze plus the Zesto tubes are in combination too much in the wrong direction while a 2M Black would be closer on the spectrum to your goal even though it is only a little more expensive.

If you want a monumental improvement, then you could go with the moving coil Cadenza Bronze or Black, but I think that approaches your system being somewhat unbalanced in terms of the financial investment in components. I also share your worry that you might purchase a more expensive cartridge and still not achieve the sound you're looking for. Plus like mulveling mentioned, the Zesto's SUT will also have an impact on the sound of a moving coil cartridge.

The main reason I asked what your other components are is because you said you're happy with the way things sound with digital playback. Knowing what your other components are could help me understand what that sound is.

Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

What did you mean by his analog system becoming unbalanced? What is your rule of thumb for cost of table vs cart vs preamp? Sincerely. My cart is about a 1/3 the cost of my table. I wonder if I over spent on the cart.

It's not that I have a particular rule of thumb, as every improved component certainly improves the sound, and price is not necessarily a proxy for quality. But jumping from a 2M Bronze to a Cadenza Bronze / Black is a significant price difference, and maybe a better turntable or phono stage would be a better investment. The cartridge is the component that will wear out (of course depending on use), and the component that is relatively easy to replace. I have a client who pretty much replaces his cartridge every 2 years. The turntable is probably the least convenient to replace, and also what you're most likely to hold onto long-term.

Originally Posted by Dizzie

This is going to sound like a strange question but it is serious. I have someone coming tomorrow to give me an estimate on purchasing 7’ of vinyl from the 60s-90s. Some of it shows use but many of the albums were only played once or twice to copy to cassette using a Nakamachi deck. There is not a lot of noise, clicks, or pops and the albums are not warped. Covers are in excellent condition. I do not have to decide on selling the albums immediately but I do want to make a decision soon about my entire vinyl system.

My TT had long ago expired so a couple of years ago I decided to resurrect my collection. I needed new music, even if it was old. I have a lot of music on vinyl that I do not have on digital and many of the CDs of early music are not that good. I purchased a TT and cleaner and did a marathon cleaning of 100 albums and used new sleeves. Compared to my excellent digital setup the vinyl sounds horrible. Vinyl is 2-dimensional and lacking in the harmonic structure that defines a guitar or even drums. My Sound Lab speakers are capable of so much more than the vinyl setup is revealing.

I have been to many large audio shows and the best rooms were most often vinyl and tubes. I did not expect to reach that level but what I have is not listenable. The TT was set up by a dealer who has at least 24 TTs in his store so he is serious and doesn’t just have a TT or two because customers expect it.

Is my system too far toward the bottom end? Am I expecting too much from it? Is there a reasonable way to salvage it? I know there is always something better and someone is immediately going to recommend a $5K cartridge and a $500 mat. That is not going to happen. All the dealer would tell me was I needed to buy all new, modern pressings. If that is the case why are older albums still desirable? Replacing all my vinyl does not make sense to me and it definitely is not the reason I purchased new equipment.

My analog system:

VPI Prime in Walnut with Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge.
VPI cleaning machine HW-16.5
Zesto Audio Andros 1.2 phono pre
Cardas Cygnus Phono 1.25M RCA/RCA

Please ignore me if you find my post too bizarre. Perhaps this is only part of the grieving process of letting go of so many hours spent and memories etched.

Just a bad Vinyl setup , its not really close if done correctly , also not impossible to have bad vinyl pressings too , you did not list your complete system so hard to determine or offer a good reason as to why, but for sure to be this far off , very bad analog setup ...!


Regards ...

Originally Posted by W9TR

Your post is not at all bizarre. It’s a tough decision to make as there are a lot more things involved with vinyl playback than fidelity.

As I improved my vinyl and digital systems they began to sound more and more alike.
My best sources are still vinyl but digital versions sound better on many of the vinyl titles I own.
If I didn’t already own a lot of records I’m not sure I’d get into it.

So I’m not an unrecoverable vinyl nutjob.

You’ve got a good setup. Great phono stage. Great turntable. The cartridge is the weak link. This is my opinion of course, but I’ve never liked the inexpensive Ortofon cartridges.

So if you are at a crossroads and want to throw another $2k to $3k at your vinyl system you may get a result that pleases you. Or not. That’s the risk. You’ve already said you don’t wan’t to do that, so I get it.

Or you can try for another setup - because there are a lot of levers to pull in setup that impact the overall sound. The setup would include geometry, VTF, VTA, Azimuth, and anti-skate. Ideally it would be done in your home. I would not assume your dealer knows what they are doing. They may, or may not. It’s a crap shoot and fewer and fewer people truly know how to set up a high end turntable.

Vinyl setup is an art that few have mastered.

Maybe your dealer can provide a demo for you.

At any rate good luck, you’re in a tough spot and there is no right answer.

If both start to sound alike you are prolly running a non discrete PP, or using some form of digital processing , You may or may not prefer one over the other but in no way does an analog TT sounds like digital ...


Regards

Originally Posted by gadawg

I agree with others here in that I believe your weakest link is the cartridge. What I experienced was that until I got to a certain point on my MC cartridge my analog rig just didn't engage me. However once I found a great analog dealer and listening to a truly great cartridge on a great table there was no going back. At this point my analog front end is my preferred listening source generally but as always the mastering is really important and I have CD's that sound better than the vinyl when the vinyl mastering was more of an afterthought. Good luck but if you are trying to stay within a lower budget on the analog side and you have a really good digital front end then you may want to consider sticking to digital ... that can be really good too! Just do whatever you enjoy most!

George

Actually its the other way around you need to spend more on digital to exceed the performance of a decent analog TT setup , especially at current "look at Me" DAC prices ...


Regards