Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries
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  1. #1
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    Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    On 19 April 2015 I emailed Mat Weisfeld of VPI Industries directly and this morning, 8:13 a.m. Pacific, I at long last received a reply.

    Note: I've communicated with Mat over the years, so I still have his email address. Plus, I have talked with him on the phone a few times. Mat is personable, friendly and genuinely a helpful nice guy. Oh, and he's really busy!

    Anyway, I sent Mat an email detailing my thoughts very blunt which I will not share here because it would not be appropriate. But, Mat does a great job summing it up politically correct and fairly sanitized. Yeah, a gentle letter but gets that point accross.

    My thought: VPI is [and also, ClearAudio] are respected leaders in the industry. I personally find it interesting that they have both not embraced ULTRASonic vinyl care as a solo solution. Though, ClearAudio is using a vibration method...and noteably NON-ULTRASonic but facilitating an alternate sonic technique less aggressive.

    Historical info: you can circle back to my recent tests here on AS about my experience using the VPI wet method and the two leaning ultrasonics currently available: VPI | Audio Desk | Klaudio: which RCM is right for you?


    My findings are in line with Harry Weisfeld, VPI Industries. For me, arguing with Harry is every bit as fruitless arguing a point with Dan [Double-D]. I would embarrassingly loose.

    LETTER FROM VPI INDUSTRIES. ALSO SEE PHOTOS FROM VPI


    Hi David,

    I'm not sure if I already responded to your email or if I have responded to this specific question so much that I'm loosing my mind :p

    Harry ended up buying all the units out there and ended up not liking them because of the price points and the cleaning job they did. They did nice but not nice enough to justify needing to take out a loan to buy them! Here is a picture of Harry's lab for cleaning. He put together a DIY ultrasonic cleaning machine that cost him about $500 and cleans better. This DIY solution is the exact reason we will NOT be making our own ultrasonic cleaner because it just doesn't make sense and the ultra sonic really needs to be combined with a VPI cleaning machine to seal the deal.

    Here is a link to Harry's thread on it all: Harry's Cleaning Process

    Hope this gives more insight one how to get the best clean!


    ---
    Sincerely,
    Mat Weisfeld

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    Re: Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    Quote Originally Posted by Golucid View Post
    On 19 April 2015 I emailed Mat Weisfeld of VPI Industries directly and this morning, 8:13 a.m. Pacific, I at long last received a reply.

    Note: I've communicated with Mat over the years, so I still have his email address. Plus, I have talked with him on the phone a few times. Mat is personable, friendly and genuinely a helpful nice guy. Oh, and he's really busy!

    Anyway, I sent Mat an email detailing my thoughts very blunt which I will not share here because it would not be appropriate. But, Mat does a great job summing it up politically correct and fairly sanitized. Yeah, a gentle letter but gets that point accross.

    My thought: VPI is [and also, ClearAudio] are respected leaders in the industry. I personally find it interesting that they have both not embraced ULTRASonic vinyl care as a solo solution. Though, ClearAudio is using a vibration method...and noteably NON-ULTRASonic but facilitating an alternate sonic technique less aggressive.

    Historical info: you can circle back to my recent tests here on AA about my experience using the VPI wet method and the two leaning ultrasonics currently available: VPI | Audio Desk | Klaudio: which RCM is right for you?

    My findings are in line with Harry Weisfeld, VPI Industries. For me, arguing with Harry is every bit as fruitless arguing a point with Dan [JDandy]. I would embarrassingly loose.

    LETTER FROM VPI INDUSTRIES. ALSO SEE PHOTOS FROM VPI


    Hi David,

    I'm not sure if I already responded to your email or if I have responded to this specific question so much that I'm loosing my mind :p

    Harry ended up buying all the units out there and ended up not liking them because of the price points and the cleaning job they did. They did nice but not nice enough to justify needing to take out a loan to buy them! Here is a picture of Harry's lab for cleaning. He put together a DIY ultrasonic cleaning machine that cost him about $500 and cleans better. This DIY solution is the exact reason we will NOT be making our own ultrasonic cleaner because it just doesn't make sense and the ultra sonic really needs to be combined with a VPI cleaning machine to seal the deal.

    Here is a link to Harry's thread on it all: Harry's Cleaning Process

    Hope this gives more insight one how to get the best clean!


    ---
    Sincerely,
    Mat Weisfeld
    Harry and I disagree about this subject but if you visit the VPI forum, there is more discussion on this topic.

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    Re: Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    Harry and I disagree about this subject but if you visit the VPI forum, there is more discussion on this topic.
    Yes, I have been reading the 13 pages. But, In my own experience, and I have the three machines: VPI + AudioDesk + Kaludio. I get best results including the VPI in the cleaning process. Perhaps it's just isolated to my many thousands of LPs, 12", 10" and 7"s. All are a combination of USA, UK, German, Japanese and a few other countries of origin.

    There's a quote I like that Dan [Double-D] recently stated, "Through the years we have come to the conclusion that we must agree to simply disagree about this topic and we no longer discuss it. Since his sound system only has to make him happy, who am I to insist his attitude is misguided. This is a classic case of live and let live."

    Again, it's impossible to say my method is ideal for someone else. At the very least, I invite everyone to ask questions and that costs zero dollars!

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    Re: Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    Quote Originally Posted by Golucid View Post
    Yes, I have been reading the 13 pages. But, In my own experience, and I have the three machines: VPI + AudioDesk + Kaludio. I get best results including the VPI in the cleaning process. Perhaps it's just isolated to my many thousands of LPs, 12", 10" and 7"s. All are a combination of USA, UK, German, Japanese and a few other countries of origin.

    There's a quote I like that Dan [Double-D] recently stated, "Through the years we have come to the conclusion that we must agree to simply disagree about this topic and we no longer discuss it. Since his sound system only has to make him happy, who am I to insist his attitude is misguided. This is a classic case of live and let live."

    Again, it's impossible to say my method is ideal for someone else. At the very least, I invite everyone to ask questions and that costs zero dollars!
    I can understand why. I really don't hear what HW is complaining about in the upper octaves with the US based machines. Maybe it was a quirk of what LP was used. In fact I hear just the opposite with traditional vacuum based machines with much of the result directly traceable to what RCF is used. But even the best RCF fluids still close in the upper octaves.

    I do love like the brushes as used in the AD cleaner.

    But the choice would be if one could or had to choose just one method and didn't want to spend 25 minutes cleaning one LP???

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    Re: Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    Sure, I will be mindful to change the water more often but I will continue to argue that the AD is more sympathetic of the US choices on the market because of what it employs in its design and operation.
    Steve

    Furutech Passive Power Filtering


    Speakeasy

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    Re: Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post

    But the choice would be if one could or had to choose just one method and didn't want to spend 25 minutes cleaning one LP???
    Myles- I think this is a notable point. There can be copious amounts of time and money spent on cleaning and cleaning accessories.

    The vignette I see: "Oooh! I want to listen to [this] album." pull it from the storage shelf, remove the disc from the sleeve and glean the "tonearm light" off the surface to only find that some dust and stray fuzzies have populated the surface. "Okay I'll use a brush to knock off that unwanted filth." after a few rotations and delicate sweeps, the needle is dropped only to find that a greater effort must be placed in restoring the surface to acceptable playback standards. Now, at this point you 'may' decide to forgo the the listening session and find a cleaner or newer disc. However, determined to get the music playing the time of enjoyment is further delayed by [longer than you like time frame] spent cleaning with a Record Cleaning Machine (RCM).

    Now, a method and discipline would be to set aside a queue with a four record capacity. When a record meets your criteria of dirty, place it in the queue. When the queue is full, spend the time to clean the four records [while you listen to other records ]. Of course the compromise is that this in not anticipatory record cleaning, but reactive. The reactive nature has a potential to be more efficient with your time. If anyone can crack that code of anticipatory record playing, you'd be a superstar.

    Now to the real pie in the sky stuff: I suppose the easy way is to plan playlist, but that's no fun. Music generally runs and is sourced from moods / emotions and environment. What we need is robotic solution to clean ALL the records with a lower risk of damage that what we could do. Then we can let whatever that motivates us to play be ready to go. Oh and make it valuable and cost effective to time. For certain a robo RCM will cost lots of money.

    Does anyone else have a suggested cleaning methodology and/or discipline? Please share because we can only learn from you.

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    Re: Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    I've owned the VPI 16.5, 1 Loricraft PRC3, 1 Loricraft PRC4, 3 Audio Desk Systeme's, and a few updates of the Klaudio.

    at one point I had the PRC4, and Audio Desk, and the KLaudio at the same time.

    now I just have the Klaudio.

    I know that I could obsess about the minutia of combining machines and all that stuff, but going forward I simply don't think about it that much and just 'touch up' already cleaned Lps as needed with the Klaudio and do a double clean to 'new to me' used Lps. my Klaudio sits in the hallway outside the room; I can clean one record while I listen to another. so almost zero time spent cleaning and not listening.

    I don't see myself in an acquisition mode again where I have lots of older Lps that need special attention. I've moved on to just enjoying them and find it's the right approach for me.

    I respect that is not the right thing for everyone.

    I do think that as a final clean to an already clean or new record, particularly when you consider ease of use and mechanical longevity, it's hard to beat the Klaudio as a one machine solution.

    YMMV, only my 2 cents, and all that stuff.

    oh, and btw....if the Lp sits on my shelf I know it already is acceptable to my ears to play. OTOH i'm one of those that easily listens 'thru' some noise and do not get twisted about it. but we are not all the same on that issue.

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    Re: Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    I do think that as a final clean to an already clean or new record, particularly when you consider ease of use and mechanical longevity, it's hard to beat the Klaudio as a one machine solution.
    I am all for the one machine solution. I dread having to go through the long cleaning process through three machines. I am eager to audition the ClearAudio Double Matrix Sonic. This machine on the surface seems to address the best of both worlds using both a traditional wet and a sonic [not to be confused with Ultrasonic] method to clean your vinyl. If this machine is capable of performing and delivery exceptional results, I will cheerfully dump the VPI, AudioDesk and Klaudio for that all-in-one solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    "...i'm one of those that easily listens 'thru' some noise and do not get twisted about it. but we are not all the same on that issue.
    Oh I wish I could let go just a little. The snap crackle pop and static... just hearing it once drives me nuts.

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    Re: Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    Quote Originally Posted by Golucid View Post
    I am all for the one machine solution. I dread having to go through the long cleaning process through three machines. I am eager to audition the ClearAudio Double Matrix Sonic. This machine on the surface seems to address the best of both worlds using both a traditional wet and a sonic [not to be confused with Ultrasonic] method to clean your vinyl. If this machine is capable of performing and delivery exceptional results, I will cheerfully dump the VPI, AudioDesk and Klaudio for that all-in-one solution.

    Oh I wish I could let go just a little. The snap crackle pop and static... just hearing it once drives me nuts.
    I have approximately 8000 Lps. and maybe 30-50 that 'snap, crackle and pop'. certainly maybe 3-5-7% have some minor surface noise or a tic or two, but the vast majority i'd say are essentially noise free where no one's comfort zone would be alerted by noise.

    those 30-50 that are really noisy have to be truly outstanding music and sound otherwise to have still earned their way onto a shelf spot.

    when i'm playing vinyl it's so infrequent to notice noise it's almost a non-issue. I mostly touch up dusty records based on how it looks, not anything I hear.

    so i'm simply not motivated to make record cleaning any more of an issue than I do now.

    I did jettison approximately 4000 records a couple of years ago to cull the herd that I was not really listening to; that group required more attention as far as cleaning and noise to enter my regular use shelf areas. maybe one's reality on noise can be effected by the particular group of records you have.....or maybe even the performance difference between vinyl and digital in your system. if the vinyl does not smoke the digital then the toleration for noise from vinyl could be much more limited.

    we all have our perspectives.

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    Re: Vinyl Cleaning - The Dirty Truth Letter from Mat Weisfeld, VPI Industries

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post
    I have approximately 8000 Lps. and maybe 30-50 that 'snap, crackle and pop'. certainly maybe 3-5-7% have some minor surface noise or a tic or two, but the vast majority i'd say are essentially noise free where no one's comfort zone would be alerted by noise.

    those 30-50 that are really noisy have to be truly outstanding music and sound otherwise to have still earned their way onto a shelf spot.

    when i'm playing vinyl it's so infrequent to notice noise it's almost a non-issue. I mostly touch up dusty records based on how it looks, not anything I hear.

    so i'm simply not motivated to make record cleaning any more of an issue than I do now.

    I did jettison approximately 4000 records a couple of years ago to cull the heard that I was not really listening to; that group required more attention as far as cleaning and noise to enter my regular use shelf areas. maybe one's reality on noise can be effected by the particular group of records you have.....or maybe even the performance difference between vinyl and digital in your system. if the vinyl does not smoke the digital then the toleration for noise from vinyl could be much more limited.

    we all have our perspectives.
    :goodpost:

    Well, I am lame. I just started collecting records I have not spent money on 12,000 records, and hope to make each purchase a keeper 60% of the time- BUT my experience with noiseless records reflects yours.

 

 
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