Welcome to the AudioShark Forums.
Results 1 to 49 of 49

Thread: Long Tone Arms

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Plantation Bay CC
    Posts
    5,168

    Long Tone Arms

    I know this is an open ended question with a lot of variables but I see a lot of turntables mentioned that are equipped with 10 -12 " tone arms. Do they make a difference ? Do these longer tone arms improve tracking and distortion ? or will a better designed and constructed 9" tone arm be a better option.
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  2. #2

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Less headshell offset is one factor resulting in lower tracing disortions. One does have to be a little more careful though with alignment as Bob Graham showed. But that's a minor issue. All things being equal (and mass), I'd go with the 12-inch arm. Even a 10.5 inch isn't the same.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Goldmund Telos 1000 Nextgen mono amplifiers, Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier, Doshi Audio EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostages, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    "Clueless" in California
    Posts
    1,318

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    the same Bob Graham will say 12" arms were developed for the 16" LP and have no advantage playing 12" discs. The 'theoretical' advantage is slightly lower 2nd harmonic distortion (over a 9 incher), provided the cart is perfectly aligned. Thats the rub, alignment is more critical in a 12" as miss-alignment is magnified compared to 9 incher. If you ask designers like Allen Perkins and AJ Conti among others they will tell you 10-10.5 inch length for a pivoted tonearm is the sweet spot for playing 12" LPs.

  4. #4

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    the same Bob Graham will say 12" arms were developed for the 16" LP and have no advantage playing 12" discs. The 'theoretical' advantage is slightly lower 2nd harmonic distortion (over a 9 incher), provided the cart is perfectly aligned. Thats the rub, alignment is more critical in a 12" as miss-alignment is magnified compared to 9 inch. If you ask designers like Allen Perkins and AJ Conti among others they will tell you 10-10.5 inch length for a pivoted tonearm the sweet spot for playing 12" LPs.
    That's the same Bob who went out of his way to knock any and all 12-inch arms for the longest time and was the last (?) to make a 12-inch arm. And speaking as someone who has heard all three lengths, there's simply no comparison; the 12-inch arm is sonically better and the closest in sound to a linear tracker that I've experienced. And now that there's new lighter materials to fashion the arms, the added mass isn't an issue.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Goldmund Telos 1000 Nextgen mono amplifiers, Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier, Doshi Audio EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostages, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  5. #5

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    I agree with Myles 100% Any of you who ever owned an ET-2 arm at some point in your life knows how pure that arm sounded in spite of it's other flaws that eventually made me leave it. The SME 312S arm is the first tonearm that I have owned that has the same purity the ET-2 had and has allowed me to never look back. Really good 12" tonearms are the bomb and don't let anyone tell you different. You need to hear one for yourself in your own system before you believe when other people tell you that 9" is plenty.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  6. #6

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    That's the same Bob who went out of his way to knock any and all 12-inch arms for the longest time and was the last (?) to make a 12-inch arm. And speaking as someone who has heard all three lengths, there's simply no comparison; the 12-inch arm is sonically better and the closest in sound to a linear tracker that I've experienced. And now that there's new lighter materials to fashion the arms, the added mass isn't an issue.
    Myles,

    Some people will tell you that this happens mainly because the longest arm has the same problems as the linear tracker, mostly a higher mass.

    BTW, IMHO the difference between the sound of a 9" and a 12" tonearm can not be due to tracking error, otherwise the 9" and the 12" would sound the same at zero tracking error points. Headshell offset can not be neglected, as you pointed.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    "Clueless" in California
    Posts
    1,318

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    I don't want to turn this into Bob Graham against the world thread, FWIW we talked about upgrading my phantom to an elite and he talked me out of his 12". he makes them for certain installations that lack the clearance necessary for the 10."

    As far as what the ET-2 is capable of, I recently reacquainted myself with not one, but two of them - hi/low pressure pumps, 5-gal surge tank and all. Its not that it can't sound very good (it's been 27 yrs since i owned one) but once installed its faults snapped into focus more clearly than ever. PM if you're looking for one (two available).

  8. #8

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    (...) As far as what the ET-2 is capable of, I recently reacquainted myself with not one, but two of them - hi/low pressure pumps, 5-gal surge tank and all. Its not that it can't sound very good (it's been 27 yrs since i owned one) but once installed its faults snapped into focus more clearly ever. PM if you're looking for one (two available).
    Did you try the latest Carbon Fiber/Aluminum/Teflon constrained layer high stiffness arm wand? I also own one ET-2 and still consider it the best existing value for money in tonearms when bought at the current used price - although I am currently using a SME30/SMEV, as I am a lazy man. But I keep the ET2 for the day I became a more rational audiophile.

  9. #9

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    I don't want to turn this into Bob Graham against the world thread, FWIW we talked about upgrading my phantom to an elite and he talked me out of his 12". he makes them for certain installations that lack the clearance necessary for the 10."

    As far as what the ET-2 is capable of, I recently reacquainted myself with not one, but two of them - hi/low pressure pumps, 5-gal surge tank and all. Its not that it can't sound very good (it's been 27 yrs since i owned one) but once installed its faults snapped into focus more clearer than ever. PM if you're looking for one (two available).
    So tell us what faults you found with the ET-2 with regards to how they sound in your system. My main issue was the lack of a true signal ground which always caused some degree of a hum issue depending on the associated gear, wiring, the weather, and how strong local FM stations were. Oh, and the ET-2 has to be set up perfectly level or it won't play at all. Gus won't get on the bus if the ET-2 isn't perfectly level. The ET-2 arm is a pain in the ass to set up and if you don't have the metal jig to set up the arm and keep it set up, it may have never been right. The metal jigs were designed to be owned by dealers rather than consumers and they were fairly rare. I owned the metal jig for over 25 years until I finally decided to ditch the ET-2 once and for all.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    580

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    If I have this right the pro about a longer arm is head shell angel thus better tracking angle. The con is more weight anything you do to make the arm lighter can be done to a shorter arm only lighter. Has anyone done a A B with the same arm in different lengths how much improvement do you get. No one gets to caught up in what a cartridge weighs as in the lightest at all costs is a small mass gain that big a deal. I have heard you get more detail and better bass has this proved to be true.
    Lyra Atlas, tri-planner, clear audio statement, Burmester 100, Ayre KXR20, Ayre MXR20, Ayre DX5, Adept Response line conditioner, Ayre signature interconnects, Cardas clear power cables,cardas clear speaker cables and Martin Logan CLX with Decenti subs with Cardas hex link.
    Not in use Infinity QLS and Ohm F

  11. #11

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Unfortunately the ET-2 setup instructions are very poor, even confusing, and IMHO the metal jig should be used only for drilling the fixing hole, although the drilling diagrams included in the manual are very easy to follow. After that, once you understand what is a parallel line, a right angle and the function of each part, anyone owning a good miniature level should be able to set it in less than fifteen minutes.

    And yes, any linear arm has to be set to perfect level - if you have the wrong turntable it will be a complete disaster.

    Never had any issue with hum, although I remember a particular MC cartridge that could receive short wave radio with the ET.

  12. #12

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    Myles,

    Some people will tell you that this happens mainly because the longest arm has the same problems as the linear tracker, mostly a higher mass.

    BTW, IMHO the difference between the sound of a 9" and a 12" tonearm can not be due to tracking error, otherwise the 9" and the 12" would sound the same at zero tracking error points. Headshell offset can not be neglected, as you pointed.
    Understood but mass is really not an issue say with the 10.5 vs. 12-inch VPI 3-D arms. The 12-inch's effective mass is probably less than most 9-inch arms. Of course there might be less SRA/VTA changes with the longer arm but that shouldn't be a huge issue with a clamped LP. Then again we could have less groove jitter as Peter Ledermann calls it going on because the 12-inch is tracing the groove better.

    My reference for linear tracking arms was the now sadly discontinued Air Tangent Tonearm. Wonderful arm, low distortion, great resolution and an amazing sense of space. The 12-inch come the closest to capturing those qualities while at the same time surpassing and by a large margin, the AT's low end. That to my ears is always their Achille's heel. (The AT had because of its captured bearing design, a lot less mass issues than the ET).

    And Francisco is spot on with the setup of the air bearing arms. The ET was probably the most finicky to get right but Leif even had some optional arm wands to better mate the arm to different cartridges. Plus I always dreamed of the remote control VTA option.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Goldmund Telos 1000 Nextgen mono amplifiers, Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier, Doshi Audio EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostages, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  13. #13
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Goldmund Telos 1000 Nextgen mono amplifiers, Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier, Doshi Audio EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostages, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  14. #14

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    Unfortunately the ET-2 setup instructions are very poor, even confusing, and IMHO the metal jig should be used only for drilling the fixing hole, although the drilling diagrams included in the manual are very easy to follow. After that, once you understand what is a parallel line, a right angle and the function of each part, anyone owning a good miniature level should be able to set it in less than fifteen minutes.

    And yes, any linear arm has to be set to perfect level - if you have the wrong turntable it will be a complete disaster.

    Never had any issue with hum, although I remember a particular MC cartridge that could receive short wave radio with the ET.
    I think you greatly underplay the value of the metal jig. It is important for lots of things besides drilling the mounting holes.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    "Clueless" in California
    Posts
    1,318

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    So tell us what faults you found with the ET-2 with regards to how they sound in your system. My main issue was the lack of a true signal ground which always caused some degree of a hum issue depending on the associated gear, wiring, the weather, and how strong local FM stations were. Oh, and the ET-2 has to be set up perfectly level or it won't play at all. Gus won't get on the bus if the ET-2 isn't perfectly level. The ET-2 arm is a pain in the ass to set up and if you don't have the metal jig to set up the arm and keep it set up, it may have never been right. The metal jigs were designed to be owned by dealers rather than consumers and they were fairly rare. I owned the metal jig for over 25 years until I finally decided to ditch the ET-2 once and for all.
    the ET-2's high mass in the horizontal plane requires high inertia to move the arm. tracking off center pressed LPs with the slightest warp throws the arm into a tizzy and audible distortion occurs, not to mention the narrow selection of carts that seem to work well in that arm. And yes, i do have the rare-as-hens-teeth metal set-up jig.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    "Clueless" in California
    Posts
    1,318

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    and who is John Elison again and what arm did he design? this is the same guy that criticized VPI for designing headshells with the wrong offset.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    "Clueless" in California
    Posts
    1,318

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    Did you try the latest Carbon Fiber/Aluminum/Teflon constrained layer high stiffness arm wand? I also own one ET-2 and still consider it the best existing value for money in tonearms when bought at the current used price - although I am currently using a SME30/SMEV, as I am a lazy man. But I keep the ET2 for the day I became a more rational audiophile.

    Hi Micro, good to see you here. No I haven't got bruce's carbon armwand, I spoke to him over the phone recently and he described it as just a higher mass version for very low compliance carts.

  18. #18

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    and who is John Elison again and what arm did he design? this is the same guy that criticized VPI for designing headshells with the wrong offset.
    I don't always agree with John (we've had our spats on AA too) but thought this diagrams were of interest.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Goldmund Telos 1000 Nextgen mono amplifiers, Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier, Doshi Audio EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostages, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Plantation Bay CC
    Posts
    5,168

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    So a well designed, constructed and adjusted tone arm when matched to a quality cartridge regardless of the tone arm length should be sufficient for the average home user. I guess I need to go listen to a TT with a 12" arm but the issue is finding a dealer or a person close that has a table with a 12" tone arm.
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  20. #20

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    the ET-2's high mass in the horizontal plane requires high inertia to move the arm. tracking off center pressed LPs with the slightest warp throws the arm into a tizzy and audible distortion occurs, not to mention the narrow selection of carts that seem to work well in that arm. And yes, i do have the rare-as-hens-teeth metal set-up jig.
    I don't recall my ET-2 ever being thrown into a "tizzy." I remember somebody on Who's Deaf posted a video of their table with the ET-2 playing an LP and the ET-2 was swaying to and fro like a drunk in the breeze. I told him that I had never seen an ET-2 do that before. He thought it was normal. I subsequently posted a video of my ET-2 mounted on my VPI TNT playing an LP in a manner I considered normal.

    Owning the SME 312S has made me forget about ever owning the ET-2 again. No more pumps, surge tanks, air lines, and filters for me.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  21. #21

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by CPP View Post
    So a well designed, constructed and adjusted tone arm when matched to a quality cartridge regardless of the tone arm length should be sufficient for the average home user. I guess I need to go listen to a TT with a 12" arm but the issue is finding a dealer or a person close that has a table with a 12" tone arm.
    Since when has this hobby ever been about "should be sufficient?" Does anyone know of someone who bought a high-quality modern 12" arm and ditched it to go back to a smaller arm? Size does matter and I have no plans to ever go back to a small arm.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Plantation Bay CC
    Posts
    5,168

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Since when has this hobby ever been about "should be sufficient?" Does anyone know of someone who bought a high-quality modern 12" arm and ditched it to go back to a smaller arm? Size does matter and I have no plans to ever go back to a small arm.
    Don't have a clue, as I've never personally met anyone that had a 12" tone arm.
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  23. #23

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Since when has this hobby ever been about "should be sufficient?" Does anyone know of someone who bought a high-quality modern 12" arm and ditched it to go back to a smaller arm? Size does matter and I have no plans to ever go back to a small arm.
    I did. (VPI 12.6 on VPI HRX to VPI 3D10.5 on VPI Classic 3). Larry
    Analog-VPIClassic3-3DArm,Lyra Skala+MiyajimaZeroMono,2xAmpex ATR-102,Otari MX5050B2, Merrill Trident Tape Preamp, Herron VTPH-2A&BottleheadPhonoPre,
    Dig Rip-Pyramix,IzotopeRX3Adv,MykerinosCard,PacificMicroso nicsModel2 AD
    Dig Play-Lampi Horizon, mch NADAC Roon/HQPlayer,Oppo105
    Electronics-DoshiPre,CJ MET1mchPre,Cary2A3monoamps
    Speakers-AvantgardeDuosLR,3SolosC,LR,RR
    Other-512 Engineering Tim Marutani Symmetrical Power IsoTrans and cables,AudioDiskVinylCleaner,
    Music-2.3KR2Rtapes,1.5KCD's,500SACDs,60TBripped files

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Lakeland, Florida
    Posts
    1,054

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    I'd go with the 12-inch arm. Even a 10.5 inch isn't the same.
    That's what she said!
    George
    -----------------------

    Aurender ACS10 Music Server > Holo Audio May KTE R2R Ladder DAC > Pass Labs XP-30 Preamp > Pass Labs XA160.5 Class A Mono Blocks > Martin Logan Renaissance ELS 15A Speakers

    Powered By 2X BPT 3.5 Signature Plus Ultra Isolators | Shunyata Research Hydra Triton + Typhon | Shunyata Hydra 2 Power Conditioner

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    458

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Garth View Post
    Has anyone done a A B with the same arm in different lengths how much improvement do you get. No one gets to caught up in what a cartridge weighs as in the lightest at all costs is a small mass gain that big a deal. I have heard you get more detail and better bass has this proved to be true.
    Yes, I owned both the 9" SME V and the 12" SME V-12. The latter is much better. I did a direct comparison over a two week period on my SME 30/12 turntable. The V-12 is smoother, more detailed, better bass, more transparent, more extended. The lower offset angle is an advantage as it means there is less skating force. There is obviously less tracking distortion also. SME calculates it as 27% less distortion.

    Incidentally, cartridge weight can be quite important. My AirTight Supreme weighs 12 or 12.5 grams which is the perfect weight for the SME V-12 counterweight to balance the cartridge and be very close to the pivot point of the arm. This decreases inertia and makes the arm more responsive.
    Link to my system thread: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threa...l-sound.32867/
    Analog: Micro Seiki SX 8000 II, 2 NOS SME 3012R tonearms, 2 vdH Colibri Grand Cru, Colibri XPP
    Electronics: Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe, Lamm LL1.1 Signature, Lamm ML2
    Speakers: Vitavox CN-191 corner horns
    Cables: Stock SME phono cables, DIY ICs and speaker cables, Ching Cheng power cords, custom rack and amp stands

  26. #26

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Garth...just wondering if you auditioned those Ayre interconnects before you got them...I also have an all Ayre system and was amazed at how much better other cables sounded. I don't mean to disparage your system....its great as you know, just saying that I got rid of my Ayre cables and replaced them IN MY SYSTEM got better sound.

  27. #27

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by astrotoy View Post
    I did. (VPI 12.6 on VPI HRX to VPI 3D10.5 on VPI Classic 3). Larry
    I have owned two VPI arms and was never a fan of them. I haven't heard the 3D arms so I can't comment on them.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  28. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    580

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Yes, I owned both the 9" SME V and the 12" SME V-12. The latter is much better. I did a direct comparison over a two week period on my SME 30/12 turntable. The V-12 is smoother, more detailed, better bass, more transparent, more extended. The lower offset angle is an advantage as it means there is less skating force. There is obviously less tracking distortion also. SME calculates it as 27% less distortion.

    Incidentally, cartridge weight can be quite important. My AirTight Supreme weighs 12 or 12.5 grams which is the perfect weight for the SME V-12 counterweight to balance the cartridge and be very close to the pivot point of the arm. This decreases inertia and makes the arm more responsive.
    Thank you for the reply I had a SME V- 9 inch for many years on a SOTA . I will keep in mind your findings . I have found comparing tables arms and cartridges very hard due to the set up need only to be out a fraction to change so much. Also break in times are variable from product to product . As you say it improves the bass, smoother and more detail is of great interest. The SME 30 is a table I also considered. Thanks again for your time and opinion.
    Lyra Atlas, tri-planner, clear audio statement, Burmester 100, Ayre KXR20, Ayre MXR20, Ayre DX5, Adept Response line conditioner, Ayre signature interconnects, Cardas clear power cables,cardas clear speaker cables and Martin Logan CLX with Decenti subs with Cardas hex link.
    Not in use Infinity QLS and Ohm F

  29. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    471

    Re: Long Tone Arms


  30. #30

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o View Post
    Interestingly Harry Weisfeld told me a while back that there weren't any additional sonic benefits when he experimented with a 14-inch arm. And one can imagine a lot of mechanical issues with the additional length. So there is a point of diminishing return.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Goldmund Telos 1000 Nextgen mono amplifiers, Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier, Doshi Audio EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostages, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  31. #31
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Oklahoma City
    Posts
    23

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    He must've been joshing you, because in this thread
    the man himself says they're gonna make one

    vpiindustries.com/forum ? View topic - Prime vs C3 vs C4???

    FWIW: I think it would look absolutely goofy......and would probably sound
    about the same......

  32. #32

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Well that info must be dated. That came from when HW first released the 12-inch arm now what 15+ years ago. Maybe the lighter 3D arm and lower mass changes the equation. But thanks for the link!
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Goldmund Telos 1000 Nextgen mono amplifiers, Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier, Doshi Audio EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostages, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  33. #33

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    Well that info must be dated. That came from when HW first released the 12-inch arm now what 15+ years ago. Maybe the lighter 3D arm and lower mass changes the equation. But thanks for the link!
    The date of Harry's post says Jan 22, 2015. That's pretty recent.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  34. #34

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    The date of Harry's post says Jan 22, 2015. That's pretty recent.
    No I was referring to my info that dates back now 16 years (?).
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Goldmund Telos 1000 Nextgen mono amplifiers, Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier, Doshi Audio EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostages, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  35. #35

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    No I was referring to my info that dates back now 16 years (?).
    From Harry's post on Jan 22, 2015, it sure sounds like VPI is going to come out with a 14" arm.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  36. #36

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    From Harry's post on Jan 22, 2015, it sure sounds like VPI is going to come out with a 14" arm.
    I assume the lighter arm allows him to do things he couldn't with metal arm tubes.
    Myles B. Astor, Senior Editor, PF, www.positive-feedback.com
    Zellaton Plural Evo speakers, Goldmund Telos 1000 Nextgen mono amplifiers, Goldmund Mimesis 37S Nextgen preamplifier, Doshi Audio EVO and Goldmund PH3.8 phonostages, VPI Avenger direct-drive turntable/VPI 12-inch gimbal Fatboy/vdH Colibri Master Signature/Triangle Art Apollo cartridges, SAT LM-12 tonearms/Lyra Atlas SL Lambda, VPI 12-inch gimballed Carbon Fiber arm/vdh Black Crimson and Sumiko Songbird, Mutech Hayabusa cartridges
    Technics RS1506 reel-to-reel with low inductance Flux Magnetic heads, Doshi Audio EVO tapestage, AudioQuest Dragon Zero, Audience FrontRow, Ensemble PC, Skogrand, Kubala-Sosna Realization speaker cable, Ikigai Kangai speaker cable, SRA Craz 3/OHIO 2.3 platforms and Symposium ISIS/Ultra rack/platforms, Silver Circle Tchaik 6 PLC.

  37. #37

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor View Post
    I assume the lighter arm allows him to do things he couldn't with metal arm tubes.
    3D printing is a game-changer for lots of companies. The space station now has a 3D printer and when they need a special tool they don't have on board, NASA just uploads a file to the space station so they can manufacture the tool they need with the 3D printer.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  38. #38
    Audioshark
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    30,027

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    I have LTA envy.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  39. #39

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I have LTA envy.
    And you should!
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  40. #40
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    1,234

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    I am very curious what people think about Franc Kuzma's latest master piece. Any one hear this yet?

    4Point 14 inch- New from July 2015 - Kuzma Professional Turntables, Tonearms and Accessories

  41. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Chicgo, Illinois
    Posts
    205

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio View Post
    I am very curious what people think about Franc Kuzma's latest master piece. Any one hear this yet?

    4Point 14 inch- New from July 2015 - Kuzma Professional Turntables, Tonearms and Accessories
    I don't know if any are in the US yet. I have had the standard 4Point here since early on and have sold and installed quite a few. Set up on the new Stabi XL DC 'table, it could be really something.
    Brian Walsh
    Music Direct

  42. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    "Clueless" in California
    Posts
    1,318

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    I don't 'get' a 14" arm and with an effective mass of 19g, how many carts will actually work with it?

  43. #43

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Rob-Did you steal those lines in your avatar from me?
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

  44. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    "Clueless" in California
    Posts
    1,318

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by mep View Post
    Rob-Did you steal those lines in your avatar from me?
    I created that meme in your honor, you get full credit. In fact, you can use it as your own anytime you want.

  45. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Chicgo, Illinois
    Posts
    205

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    I don't 'get' a 14" arm and with an effective mass of 19g, how many carts will actually work with it?
    FWIW I asked Jaime Monroy of Pelotone, the Koetsu distributor, about this, especially with regard to the stone body cartridges. He feels the extra 5g of effective mass would be a sonic benefit for sure with the stone bodies, saying they tend to prefer higher mass arms.
    Brian Walsh
    Music Direct

  46. #46
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    1,234

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by puroagave View Post
    I don't 'get' a 14" arm and with an effective mass of 19g, how many carts will actually work with it?

    I presume the new Kuzma line will.

  47. #47
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Chicgo, Illinois
    Posts
    205

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by FlexibleAudio View Post
    I presume the new Kuzma line will.
    Kuzma CAR-50 on 4Point here, also with happy customers.
    Brian Walsh
    Music Direct

  48. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,781

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    new old 12 inch tonearm onto the TW Acustik table. SME 3012-R aka 1981 - believe the hype, this is one super natural sounding tonearm.

    Source: Technics SP10mk3 - Thales Simplicity II, TW Raven AC-3 - Graham Phantom, SME 3012-R, Exclusive P3,,Linn LP12 - Naim ARO
    Cartridges: Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, Lyra Etna SL, Lyra Delos, Dynavector XV-1s,Technics EPC100mk4, Ortofon A90, GM Royal, GM Classic, Denon ESC'd 103R, DL-S1, Audio Technica AT25, OC9II, Linn ESC'd Troika
    Phono Stage: Phasemation EA-1200, Accuphase C-37,TW Acustik phono
    EQ: ​DEQX HDP-4
    Preamp: D'Agostino HD, conrad johnson GAT,
    Amps: conrad johnson teflon premier 8a's, D'Agostino Momentum S250
    Speakers: Wilson Maxx3

  49. #49

    Re: Long Tone Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by XV-1 View Post
    new old 12 inch tonearm onto the TW Acustik table. SME 3012-R aka 1981 - believe the hype, this is one super natural sounding tonearm.
    I love my 3012-R tonearm too.
    Micro Seiki SX-8000 air bearing table, SME 312s arm, SME 3012R arn, Dynavector XV-1s cartridge, Lyra Etna SL cartridge, ARC Ref 3 phono stage, Otari MX-55 2 track R2R, Ampex 350 tape repros, Roon Nucleus Plus music server, HiFi Rose 150B DAC, ARC Ref 6, ARC Ref 75 with KT-150s, Parasound JC5 amp , JBL 4345 speakers, Viero Equilibro Level 3 speaker cables, and Definitive Technology Ref subs.

    Reviewer for Positive Feedback

AudioShark - The Best High End Audio Discussion forum.

AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.

The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.

At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.

We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!

Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com

Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.

Sincerely,
The Audioshark.org Team

Long Tone Arms

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •