Long Tone Arms

CPP

CPP

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I know this is an open ended question with a lot of variables but I see a lot of turntables mentioned that are equipped with 10 -12 " tone arms. Do they make a difference ? Do these longer tone arms improve tracking and distortion ? or will a better designed and constructed 9" tone arm be a better option.
 
Less headshell offset is one factor resulting in lower tracing disortions. One does have to be a little more careful though with alignment as Bob Graham showed. But that's a minor issue. All things being equal (and mass), I'd go with the 12-inch arm. Even a 10.5 inch isn't the same.
 
the same Bob Graham will say 12" arms were developed for the 16" LP and have no advantage playing 12" discs. The 'theoretical' advantage is slightly lower 2nd harmonic distortion (over a 9 incher), provided the cart is perfectly aligned. Thats the rub, alignment is more critical in a 12" as miss-alignment is magnified compared to 9 incher. If you ask designers like Allen Perkins and AJ Conti among others they will tell you 10-10.5 inch length for a pivoted tonearm is the sweet spot for playing 12" LPs.
 
puroagave said:
the same Bob Graham will say 12" arms were developed for the 16" LP and have no advantage playing 12" discs. The 'theoretical' advantage is slightly lower 2nd harmonic distortion (over a 9 incher), provided the cart is perfectly aligned. Thats the rub, alignment is more critical in a 12" as miss-alignment is magnified compared to 9 inch. If you ask designers like Allen Perkins and AJ Conti among others they will tell you 10-10.5 inch length for a pivoted tonearm the sweet spot for playing 12" LPs.
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That's the same Bob who went out of his way to knock any and all 12-inch arms for the longest time and was the last (?) to make a 12-inch arm. And speaking as someone who has heard all three lengths, there's simply no comparison; the 12-inch arm is sonically better and the closest in sound to a linear tracker that I've experienced. And now that there's new lighter materials to fashion the arms, the added mass isn't an issue.
 
I agree with Myles 100% Any of you who ever owned an ET-2 arm at some point in your life knows how pure that arm sounded in spite of it's other flaws that eventually made me leave it. The SME 312S arm is the first tonearm that I have owned that has the same purity the ET-2 had and has allowed me to never look back. Really good 12" tonearms are the bomb and don't let anyone tell you different. You need to hear one for yourself in your own system before you believe when other people tell you that 9" is plenty.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
That's the same Bob who went out of his way to knock any and all 12-inch arms for the longest time and was the last (?) to make a 12-inch arm. And speaking as someone who has heard all three lengths, there's simply no comparison; the 12-inch arm is sonically better and the closest in sound to a linear tracker that I've experienced. And now that there's new lighter materials to fashion the arms, the added mass isn't an issue.
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Myles,

Some people will tell you that this happens mainly because the longest arm has the same problems as the linear tracker, mostly a higher mass.

BTW, IMHO the difference between the sound of a 9" and a 12" tonearm can not be due to tracking error, otherwise the 9" and the 12" would sound the same at zero tracking error points. Headshell offset can not be neglected, as you pointed.
 
I don't want to turn this into Bob Graham against the world thread, FWIW we talked about upgrading my phantom to an elite and he talked me out of his 12". he makes them for certain installations that lack the clearance necessary for the 10."

As far as what the ET-2 is capable of, I recently reacquainted myself with not one, but two of them - hi/low pressure pumps, 5-gal surge tank and all. Its not that it can't sound very good (it's been 27 yrs since i owned one) but once installed its faults snapped into focus more clearly than ever. PM if you're looking for one (two available).
 
puroagave said:
(...) As far as what the ET-2 is capable of, I recently reacquainted myself with not one, but two of them - hi/low pressure pumps, 5-gal surge tank and all. Its not that it can't sound very good (it's been 27 yrs since i owned one) but once installed its faults snapped into focus more clearly ever. PM if you're looking for one (two available).
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Did you try the latest Carbon Fiber/Aluminum/Teflon constrained layer high stiffness arm wand? I also own one ET-2 and still consider it the best existing value for money in tonearms when bought at the current used price - although I am currently using a SME30/SMEV, as I am a lazy man. :| But I keep the ET2 for the day I became a more rational audiophile.
 
puroagave said:
I don't want to turn this into Bob Graham against the world thread, FWIW we talked about upgrading my phantom to an elite and he talked me out of his 12". he makes them for certain installations that lack the clearance necessary for the 10."

As far as what the ET-2 is capable of, I recently reacquainted myself with not one, but two of them - hi/low pressure pumps, 5-gal surge tank and all. Its not that it can't sound very good (it's been 27 yrs since i owned one) but once installed its faults snapped into focus more clearer than ever. PM if you're looking for one (two available).
Click to expand...

So tell us what faults you found with the ET-2 with regards to how they sound in your system. My main issue was the lack of a true signal ground which always caused some degree of a hum issue depending on the associated gear, wiring, the weather, and how strong local FM stations were. Oh, and the ET-2 has to be set up perfectly level or it won't play at all. Gus won't get on the bus if the ET-2 isn't perfectly level. The ET-2 arm is a pain in the ass to set up and if you don't have the metal jig to set up the arm and keep it set up, it may have never been right. The metal jigs were designed to be owned by dealers rather than consumers and they were fairly rare. I owned the metal jig for over 25 years until I finally decided to ditch the ET-2 once and for all.
 
If I have this right the pro about a longer arm is head shell angel thus better tracking angle. The con is more weight anything you do to make the arm lighter can be done to a shorter arm only lighter. Has anyone done a A B with the same arm in different lengths how much improvement do you get. No one gets to caught up in what a cartridge weighs as in the lightest at all costs is a small mass gain that big a deal. I have heard you get more detail and better bass has this proved to be true.
 
Unfortunately the ET-2 setup instructions are very poor, even confusing, and IMHO the metal jig should be used only for drilling the fixing hole, although the drilling diagrams included in the manual are very easy to follow. After that, once you understand what is a parallel line, a right angle and the function of each part, anyone owning a good miniature level should be able to set it in less than fifteen minutes.

And yes, any linear arm has to be set to perfect level - if you have the wrong turntable it will be a complete disaster.

Never had any issue with hum, although I remember a particular MC cartridge that could receive short wave radio with the ET.
 
microstrip said:
Myles,

Some people will tell you that this happens mainly because the longest arm has the same problems as the linear tracker, mostly a higher mass.

BTW, IMHO the difference between the sound of a 9" and a 12" tonearm can not be due to tracking error, otherwise the 9" and the 12" would sound the same at zero tracking error points. Headshell offset can not be neglected, as you pointed.
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Understood but mass is really not an issue say with the 10.5 vs. 12-inch VPI 3-D arms. The 12-inch's effective mass is probably less than most 9-inch arms. Of course there might be less SRA/VTA changes with the longer arm but that shouldn't be a huge issue with a clamped LP. Then again we could have less groove jitter as Peter Ledermann calls it going on because the 12-inch is tracing the groove better.

My reference for linear tracking arms was the now sadly discontinued Air Tangent Tonearm. Wonderful arm, low distortion, great resolution and an amazing sense of space. The 12-inch come the closest to capturing those qualities while at the same time surpassing and by a large margin, the AT's low end. That to my ears is always their Achille's heel. (The AT had because of its captured bearing design, a lot less mass issues than the ET).

And Francisco is spot on with the setup of the air bearing arms. The ET was probably the most finicky to get right but Leif even had some optional arm wands to better mate the arm to different cartridges. Plus I always dreamed of the remote control VTA option.
 
microstrip said:
Unfortunately the ET-2 setup instructions are very poor, even confusing, and IMHO the metal jig should be used only for drilling the fixing hole, although the drilling diagrams included in the manual are very easy to follow. After that, once you understand what is a parallel line, a right angle and the function of each part, anyone owning a good miniature level should be able to set it in less than fifteen minutes.

And yes, any linear arm has to be set to perfect level - if you have the wrong turntable it will be a complete disaster.

Never had any issue with hum, although I remember a particular MC cartridge that could receive short wave radio with the ET.
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I think you greatly underplay the value of the metal jig. It is important for lots of things besides drilling the mounting holes.
 
mep said:
So tell us what faults you found with the ET-2 with regards to how they sound in your system. My main issue was the lack of a true signal ground which always caused some degree of a hum issue depending on the associated gear, wiring, the weather, and how strong local FM stations were. Oh, and the ET-2 has to be set up perfectly level or it won't play at all. Gus won't get on the bus if the ET-2 isn't perfectly level. The ET-2 arm is a pain in the ass to set up and if you don't have the metal jig to set up the arm and keep it set up, it may have never been right. The metal jigs were designed to be owned by dealers rather than consumers and they were fairly rare. I owned the metal jig for over 25 years until I finally decided to ditch the ET-2 once and for all.
Click to expand...

the ET-2's high mass in the horizontal plane requires high inertia to move the arm. tracking off center pressed LPs with the slightest warp throws the arm into a tizzy and audible distortion occurs, not to mention the narrow selection of carts that seem to work well in that arm. And yes, i do have the rare-as-hens-teeth metal set-up jig.
 
microstrip said:
Did you try the latest Carbon Fiber/Aluminum/Teflon constrained layer high stiffness arm wand? I also own one ET-2 and still consider it the best existing value for money in tonearms when bought at the current used price - although I am currently using a SME30/SMEV, as I am a lazy man. :| But I keep the ET2 for the day I became a more rational audiophile.
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Hi Micro, good to see you here. No I haven't got bruce's carbon armwand, I spoke to him over the phone recently and he described it as just a higher mass version for very low compliance carts.
 
puroagave said:
and who is John Elison again and what arm did he design? this is the same guy that criticized VPI for designing headshells with the wrong offset.
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I don't always agree with John (we've had our spats on AA too) but thought this diagrams were of interest.
 
So a well designed, constructed and adjusted tone arm when matched to a quality cartridge regardless of the tone arm length should be sufficient for the average home user. I guess I need to go listen to a TT with a 12" arm but the issue is finding a dealer or a person close that has a table with a 12" tone arm.
 
puroagave said:
the ET-2's high mass in the horizontal plane requires high inertia to move the arm. tracking off center pressed LPs with the slightest warp throws the arm into a tizzy and audible distortion occurs, not to mention the narrow selection of carts that seem to work well in that arm. And yes, i do have the rare-as-hens-teeth metal set-up jig.
Click to expand...

I don't recall my ET-2 ever being thrown into a "tizzy." I remember somebody on Who's Deaf posted a video of their table with the ET-2 playing an LP and the ET-2 was swaying to and fro like a drunk in the breeze. I told him that I had never seen an ET-2 do that before. He thought it was normal. I subsequently posted a video of my ET-2 mounted on my VPI TNT playing an LP in a manner I considered normal.

Owning the SME 312S has made me forget about ever owning the ET-2 again. No more pumps, surge tanks, air lines, and filters for me.
 
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