Who Says its a better sounding table ?

ohbythebay

ohbythebay

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Hello turntable fans...this should be an interesting topic and I think this will be viewed from two perspectives. The enthusiastic listener and the hyper audiophile (not mean derogatory - meaning sensitive to every nuance).

Okay, baseline - I have listened and worked on many mid-fi consumer tables and low end tables. I have never owned the $1500 and up tables so the frame of reference may be skewed but here goes.

One of the things I have noticed is the following:
  • If a table has good w&f specs
  • has perfect speed so pitch not an issue
  • properly damped
  • has a great cartridge properly aligned and tracking


If all of the above is true, I am really not hearing nuances that say "Oh this table is so much better, wider, faster, blacker, etc.") As many reviewers do. Now understand, I know these are pro's but also understand, I have a very good ear for sound and music. I can spot a sour note a mile away, an off pitch , out of key..I was in a band in NY for some years so music and the like are in me PLUS I just happen to have super sensitive hearing. So with that said I am no slouch.

so this topic came up because I am eyeballing a ClearAudio Concept...for some of you, THAT may be an entry level turntable but that is merely due to cost. To me, it is still an arm, a platter, a motor and a plinth. Plinth dampens. check. Motor turns check. W&F .02% - check. Arm works and tracks as it should - Check. So for all intents and purposes, it is no different than the table I built except my arm has fluid damping and damps the 10hz range where most vibration, etc. occurs.

So why would I want to get another except for style ? If there a "life" to tables where is it ?

I can attest to something interesting in that you can OVERDAMP a table and suck the life out of it. I did this recently on my DIY (25 lbs of clay ) and it just did not sound the same...sounded like I moved down 3 cart levels). Divotdog warned me about that..it even started a good debate on another forum..but it was true..I undamped and my table was back..I digress, but it is important to note, I can tell if there is life to a table to a degree..

But basically I am wondering if 1k 3k, 4k, and up are the emperors new cloths. People think they hear a difference but is it really there? Or is it worth the cost? Help me understand form a "sound" perspective why I would go to a $1400 table or beyond except for looks, newer, etc. if the specs are the same ? should be interesting..appreciate the feedback !

Rob
 
Just an update ..I DID pull the trigger today on a ClearAudio Concept from Jeff at AV/Solutions....THANK YOU JEFF...CAN'T WAIT !!!
 
Congratulations Rob, I’ve been watching your journey for quite some time now so I have a pretty good idea of the tables you have been listening to for awhile, while they have all been pretty good tables you are about to step up to a new level that you haven’t heard before, listening to one of these tables in your own system is going to be a real eye opener. Again congrats and I think you are really going to enjoy (of course now you will need to upgrade the phono pre and ... :))
 
This one?

REVIEW: The Clearaudio Concept Turntable



cla_concept.jpg
full-tabel1.jpg
 
Pride of ownership, one up than your friend, vanity, passion ...

These are things that makes one goes beyond the price point (wont say its not $1.4k, could be higher or lower, depending on personal "threshold"). I happen to be a "dog" in this perspective, spending way beyond. For sure, I did not say I can hear "darker", but certainly, its a pleasure to listen, peace at heart, be happy and sometimes, vain about owning the turntable .... and treating it like an object of art.

I happen to chance upon Vinyl Nirvana and Dave did a marvellous job on "re-creating" vintage masterpieces. And some of them are valued at higher than $1.4k. Again, it all depend on if one is willing to pay. I would ... just for the beauty of it. I simply love object of art! Thats cranky me.

Cheers!
ohbythebay said:
Hello turntable fans...this should be an interesting topic and I think this will be viewed from two perspectives. The enthusiastic listener and the hyper audiophile (not mean derogatory - meaning sensitive to every nuance).

Okay, baseline - I have listened and worked on many mid-fi consumer tables and low end tables. I have never owned the $1500 and up tables so the frame of reference may be skewed but here goes.

One of the things I have noticed is the following:
  • If a table has good w&f specs
  • has perfect speed so pitch not an issue
  • properly damped
  • has a great cartridge properly aligned and tracking


If all of the above is true, I am really not hearing nuances that say "Oh this table is so much better, wider, faster, blacker, etc.") As many reviewers do. Now understand, I know these are pro's but also understand, I have a very good ear for sound and music. I can spot a sour note a mile away, an off pitch , out of key..I was in a band in NY for some years so music and the like are in me PLUS I just happen to have super sensitive hearing. So with that said I am no slouch.

so this topic came up because I am eyeballing a ClearAudio Concept...for some of you, THAT may be an entry level turntable but that is merely due to cost. To me, it is still an arm, a platter, a motor and a plinth. Plinth dampens. check. Motor turns check. W&F .02% - check. Arm works and tracks as it should - Check. So for all intents and purposes, it is no different than the table I built except my arm has fluid damping and damps the 10hz range where most vibration, etc. occurs.

So why would I want to get another except for style ? If there a "life" to tables where is it ?

I can attest to something interesting in that you can OVERDAMP a table and suck the life out of it. I did this recently on my DIY (25 lbs of clay ) and it just did not sound the same...sounded like I moved down 3 cart levels). Divotdog warned me about that..it even started a good debate on another forum..but it was true..I undamped and my table was back..I digress, but it is important to note, I can tell if there is life to a table to a degree..

But basically I am wondering if 1k 3k, 4k, and up are the emperors new cloths. People think they hear a difference but is it really there? Or is it worth the cost? Help me understand form a "sound" perspective why I would go to a $1400 table or beyond except for looks, newer, etc. if the specs are the same ? should be interesting..appreciate the feedback !

Rob
Click to expand...
 
Jerry...I hear ya...LOL

To Mel's point (Divotdog) ...he knows me almost 2 years now. He saw me buy tables, then learn to work on tables, etc..Squeezing as much as I can out of them. But always that commercial mid-fi. They sounded great really and any novice hearing it would say "wow..amazing"..but my ears know there can be better. It was time to step up. So thanks to Jeff and his wealth of knowledge (he has been there in that tweak and build phase) on these tables, I was easily convinced it was the right move.

And yeah..they look damn nice too !!! LOL Turntable Porn !
 
ohbythebay said:
Hello turntable fans...this should be an interesting topic and I think this will be viewed from two perspectives. The enthusiastic listener and the hyper audiophile (not mean derogatory - meaning sensitive to every nuance).

Okay, baseline - I have listened and worked on many mid-fi consumer tables and low end tables. I have never owned the $1500 and up tables so the frame of reference may be skewed but here goes.

One of the things I have noticed is the following:
  • If a table has good w&f specs
  • has perfect speed so pitch not an issue
  • properly damped
  • has a great cartridge properly aligned and tracking


If all of the above is true, I am really not hearing nuances that say "Oh this table is so much better, wider, faster, blacker, etc.") As many reviewers do. Now understand, I know these are pro's but also understand, I have a very good ear for sound and music. I can spot a sour note a mile away, an off pitch , out of key..I was in a band in NY for some years so music and the like are in me PLUS I just happen to have super sensitive hearing. So with that said I am no slouch.

so this topic came up because I am eyeballing a ClearAudio Concept...for some of you, THAT may be an entry level turntable but that is merely due to cost. To me, it is still an arm, a platter, a motor and a plinth. Plinth dampens. check. Motor turns check. W&F .02% - check. Arm works and tracks as it should - Check. So for all intents and purposes, it is no different than the table I built except my arm has fluid damping and damps the 10hz range where most vibration, etc. occurs.

So why would I want to get another except for style ? If there a "life" to tables where is it ?

I can attest to something interesting in that you can OVERDAMP a table and suck the life out of it. I did this recently on my DIY (25 lbs of clay ) and it just did not sound the same...sounded like I moved down 3 cart levels). Divotdog warned me about that..it even started a good debate on another forum..but it was true..I undamped and my table was back..I digress, but it is important to note, I can tell if there is life to a table to a degree..

But basically I am wondering if 1k 3k, 4k, and up are the emperors new cloths. People think they hear a difference but is it really there? Or is it worth the cost? Help me understand form a "sound" perspective why I would go to a $1400 table or beyond except for looks, newer, etc. if the specs are the same ? should be interesting..appreciate the feedback !

Rob
Click to expand...

Rob...good question and my answer in my brief 2 year stint in vinyl playback (but having auditioned quite a few tables: Rega P3-24, VPI Scout, VPI Classic, my table which you can see in the signature line, the Basis 2200 with Vector 4 tonearm, and a Basis Debut Signature with Vector 4 tonearm), is that each step up in table design (assuming there is a correlation between price and better specs, which in general there is) brings you better performance on each of the criterion that you list. In other words, as you move up you get:
1) Better isolation/vibration damping (whether it's a more effective damping from better suspended designs or better damping from bigger massloaded plinths)
2) Better w&f specs due to higher tolerances in bearing and spindle and platter designs, and manufacturing resulting in less w&f
3) Adjustable and more precise speed control via different motor designs and controllers
4) More stable and adjustable tonearm designs (unipivot or gymballed designs)

As you say the job of the turntable is to provide a stable and isolated platform that delivers lowest w&f, speed and pitch stability. That is easy to say and very difficult to do. And the more you pay, the more you get in terms of these specs by virtue of better engineering/designs. better materials, that deliver higher levels of performance.

Who knows, maybe I am just drinking the cool aid but I have certainly heard the step up in performance in the tables I auditioned and they correlated directly as you moved up in price and quality. I will say this, you do have to spend much more in vinyl playback to get very decent performance relative to what you will have to pay in the digital realm to get similar level of sonic performance. So to me, from the selection of audiophile table - i.e.., current non-vintage tables - you have to start at least in the Rega RP-3 territory with some upgrades to get good sounding vinyl playback, call it around the $1-$1.2K territory.

Congrats on your Clearaudio table and looking forward to hearing your impressions of it, especially as it relates to some of your vintage tables that you have on hand. Good luck! What cart do you plan on mounting on it?
 
Last edited:
Divotdog said:
Congratulations Rob, I’ve been watching your journey for quite some time now so I have a pretty good idea of the tables you have been listening to for awhile, while they have all been pretty good tables you are about to step up to a new level that you haven’t heard before, listening to one of these tables in your own system is going to be a real eye opener. Again congrats and I think you are really going to enjoy (of course now you will need to upgrade the phono pre and ... :))
Click to expand...

Thank you my friend..ahh..But where do I go ? You know for a while I was using that HTMCPS it it was pretty good but know what sounds better (you'll be shocked). I have an AT SUT that is a perfect match into a lowly ART DJ Pre...sounds clean and wonderful...

BUT ..what would you recommend ? Anything I see in the couple hundred range Pro-Ject Tube Box, Cambridge Audio, etc..I have tried and didn't like or didn't hear the most positive...sigh..Another search aka $$$$$$$...LOL
 
Cyril...Thank you ! Good positive well thought out post...I have sort of come to the same conclusion but threw the post out there because I wanted to hear that from others...It was a good food for thought kind of thing..do we justify because its really better or is it the "oh shiney" mentality.

The caliber of the folks here convince me it is because they have been on the journey and they know what they hear !!!

The cart ? Audio Technica OC9/III MC cart...pretty sweet..I don't even have 20 hours on it yet...

Audio-Technica - Microphones, headphones, wireless microphone systems, noise-cancelling headphones & more : AT-OC9/III : MicroCoil™ Cartridge
 
cmalak said:
Rob...good question and my answer in my brief 2 year stint in vinyl playback (but having auditioned quite a few tables: Rega P3-24, VPI Scout, VPI Classic, my table which you can see in the signature line, the Basis 2200 with Vector 4 tonearm, and a Basis Debut Signature with Vector 4 tonearm), is that each step up in table design (assuming there is a correlation between price and better specs, which in general there is) brings you better performance on each of the criterion that you list. In other words, as you move up you get:
1) Better isolation/vibration damping (whether it's a more effective damping from better suspended designs or better damping from bigger massloaded plinths)
2) Better w&f specs due to higher tolerances in bearing and spindle and platter designs, and manufacturing resulting in less w&f
3) Adjustable and more precise speed control via different motor designs and controllers
4) More stable and adjustable tonearm designs (unipivot or gymballed designs)

As you say the job of the turntable is to provide a stable and isolated platform that delivers lowest w&f, speed and pitch stability. That is easy to say and very difficult to do. And the more you pay, the more you get in terms of these specs by virtue of better engineering/designs. better materials, that deliver higher levels of performance.
Who knows, maybe I am just drinking the cool aid but I have certainly heard the step up in performance in the tables I auditioned and they correlated directly as you moved up in price and quality. I will say this, you do have to spend much more in vinyl playback to get very decent performance relative to what you will have to pay in the digital realm to get similar level of sonic performance. So to me, from the selection of audiophile table - i.e.., current non-vintage tables - you have to start at least in the Rega RP-3 territory with some upgrades to get good sounding vinyl playback, call it around the $1-$1.2K territory.

Congrats on your Clearaudio table and looking forward to hearing your impressions of it, especially as it relates to some of your vintage tables that you have on hand. Good luck! What cart do you plan on mounting on it?
Click to expand...

Cyril makes an excellent point here, I’ve been spinning vinyl and building turntables for thirty plus years now, and as an avid DIYer one of the hard lessons that I have learned is that I can build a turntable that will play with a two or three thousand dollar table, and it usually only costs me two or three thousand dollars to do it.


ohbythebay said:
Thank you my friend..ahh..But where do I go ? You know for a while I was using that HTMCPS it it was pretty good but know what sounds better (you'll be shocked). I have an AT SUT that is a perfect match into a lowly ART DJ Pre...sounds clean and wonderful...

BUT ..what would you recommend ? Anything I see in the couple hundred range Pro-Ject Tube Box, Cambridge Audio, etc..I have tried and didn't like or didn't hear the most positive...sigh..Another search aka $$$$$$$...LOL
Click to expand...

I would think that with your new table and the carts that you have, you are probably going to have to look above the hundred dollar range in phono preamps.

Spend some time with your new table and see where you want to go with it, after a little time you will begin to hear the weaknesses in your system, every upgrade will generally show what the next weakest link is, that is what makes this hobby so much fun and keeps your wallet nice and light and easy to carry. :)
 
cmalak said:
Rob...good question and my answer in my brief 2 year stint in vinyl playback (but having auditioned quite a few tables: Rega P3-24, VPI Scout, VPI Classic, my table which you can see in the signature line, the Basis 2200 with Vector 4 tonearm, and a Basis Debut Signature with Vector 4 tonearm), is that each step up in table design (assuming there is a correlation between price and better specs, which in general there is) brings you better performance on each of the criterion that you list. In other words, as you move up you get:
1) Better isolation/vibration damping (whether it's a more effective damping from better suspended designs or better damping from bigger massloaded plinths)
2) Better w&f specs due to higher tolerances in bearing and spindle and platter designs, and manufacturing resulting in less w&f
3) Adjustable and more precise speed control via different motor designs and controllers
4) More stable and adjustable tonearm designs (unipivot or gymballed designs)

As you say the job of the turntable is to provide a stable and isolated platform that delivers lowest w&f, speed and pitch stability. That is easy to say and very difficult to do. And the more you pay, the more you get in terms of these specs by virtue of better engineering/designs. better materials, that deliver higher levels of performance.

Who knows, maybe I am just drinking the cool aid but I have certainly heard the step up in performance in the tables I auditioned and they correlated directly as you moved up in price and quality. I will say this, you do have to spend much more in vinyl playback to get very decent performance relative to what you will have to pay in the digital realm to get similar level of sonic performance. So to me, from the selection of audiophile table - i.e.., current non-vintage tables - you have to start at least in the Rega RP-3 territory with some upgrades to get good sounding vinyl playback, call it around the $1-$1.2K territory.

Congrats on your Clearaudio table and looking forward to hearing your impressions of it, especially as it relates to some of your vintage tables that you have on hand. Good luck! What cart do you plan on mounting on it?
Click to expand...

+1 Great post !!!!!
 
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