Turntables - fall from grace?

Mike

Mike

Audioshark
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We keep reading how vinyl is making great strides in terms of new sales. Turntable sales are up. People are loving vinyl.

But has this new love transferred over to high end audio?

As I looked for a turntable brand to position between VPI/Rega and Kronos, I kept running into great high end brands that looked to be on their last legs or others that were "here today, gone tomorrow".

A few examples: SME and Avid. I absolutely LOVE both these products. But....

Even AMG was all the rage 2 years ago and now it seems a little quiet.

And let me clarify for the record, these are ALL great products, great companies, but they aren't talked about very much any more.

Why? What gives?
 
Avid has been making some noise recently with their good-better-best story. They were also an alternative under consideration when I bought my current 'table.

The interesting thing about the boom is, that there are a lot of hipsters buying vinyls, but they never listen to them...


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how much real "technology" is in turntables - I'd think the project cycles are longer as a result.
 
KeithR said:
how much real "technology" is in turntables - I'd think the project cycles are longer as a result.
Click to expand...

Good question. Do you think some (SME perhaps?) became complacent? I can't recall the last time I saw something new from SME. But, maybe I'm mistaken.


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You don't need a new model every year or so for any hifi company to be relevant or still not cutting edge. thankfully not all hifi companies follow the ARC sales model, even thou Magico is giving it a nice tilt.
It does seem that some audiophiles are addicted to new is better - but is it really?

SME have never produced many new models - the SME 30/20/10 are long established and have only ever had a mk2 version in over 30 years for the 30, however they have tweaked their models and tonearms, but not a lot. They have been in business along time and all the products are made to last forever and have superb engineering behind them.

AVID have also been around a long time and not releasing new models on a regular basis should not been seen as a weakness.

The British have always been known to maintain their model line ups for a long time and only really bring out new models when they feel its justified in better sound quality.

AMG might have been the rage a couple of years ago, but when you are basically copying Brinkman tables I guess they have reached a limit in their expertise. Brinkman are never the "hot " brand however that is the basis of AMG and arguable better sounding in the long run as they have been in business a long time.

My TW Acustik table was the darling of the table market maybe 6-7 years ago. Thomas brought out his top of range Black Beauty maybe 5 years ago as well as a tonearm. These days TW gets no "buzz" from the press or audiophiles.

Turntables to be frank have not improved much from the SOTA tables of the late 70's early 80's. There are still folks who believe the Micro Seiki 8000 sounds better than the AF1. Many including myself use vintage Japanese DD tables as they sound so bloody good compared to the same price competition today.

Tonearms and cartridges have seemed to have improved in the past 40 years it would seem, even thou I am sure there can be debate on that as well.

Outside of more innovation on tangential tracking as that solves the inherent tracking errors on ALL other tonearms, all we are talking about is different flavours and more exotic high priced tables overall. IMO
 
Mike said:
Good question. Do you think some (SME perhaps?) became complacent? I can't recall the last time I saw something new from SME. But, maybe I'm mistaken.


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Click to expand...

I think there are two basic types of innovation in this kind of products a) new principles, materials and b) trickle down into lower price points.

For a) I have recently seen
- Kronos with a new implementation of the counter rotation principle
- VPI with the printed JWD tonearm
- double barrel Thales tonearm recently discussed here
- a minor innovation using carbon in tonearms by some
- levitating platter by no idea whom (crowd financing project)
- retrofittable external motor control, electricity rebuild and gyroscope, such as the Eagle Engineering PSU and Roadrunner combination
- DS Audio DS-W1 "Night Rider" optical phono cartridge
- cartridges going through a little of the unobtanium material cycles as seen in tweeter membranes
- Magnetosolid phono pre by Grandinote with tube architecture realised with transistors

For b) I have recently seen
- Inclusion of motor control and electricity re-build even in the lowest end Avid models, i.e. now even in Diva II
- trickle down of HRX platter, bearing and motor into Prime by VPI

But overall real innovation has been rather limited, as the focus has been elsewhere and phono was like long considered to be dying.

As my insights are limited, please kindly extend the list with things you have found.



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I would buy a pioneer exclusive p3 for sale in Germany right now but I need help from someone who can be my translater !


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Mike said:
We keep reading how vinyl is making great strides in terms of new sales. Turntable sales are up. People are loving vinyl.

But has this new love transferred over to high end audio?

As I looked for a turntable brand to position between VPI/Rega and Kronos, I kept running into great high end brands that looked to be on their last legs or others that were "here today, gone tomorrow".

A few examples: SME and Avid. I absolutely LOVE both these products. But....

Even AMG was all the rage 2 years ago and now it seems a little quiet.

And let me clarify for the record, these are ALL great products, great companies, but they aren't talked about very much any more.

Why? What gives?
Click to expand...

Maybe that new love is not in the high end audio focus at this time and these manufacturers noted are instead looking towards introducing a nice performing TT for the newbies as a first time purchase or an upgrade at an attractive price. Sometimes you solidify your base line to help fund your higher lines.
 
Audiophiles are a fickle group and many chase fads and whatever is reported to be the latest and greatest. You have to be able to differentiate products that are new vice being new and innovative in a meaningful way.
 
Mike.......Innovation is not synonymous with improvement. The claim to being innovative often creates the impression that improvements are a natural part of a design change but changes and alterations are not necessarily advancements in performance. When it comes to generating sales and cash flow, the primary driving force for company health, something as novel as altering appearance can be hailed as a performance break through, especially once the advertising department gets finished with the ad, when in fact it was simply an aesthetic alteration that took place. A new look can trigger sales as quickly as a genuine performance enhancement. This is evident in many turntables, particularly entry and mid level ones. One look at Pro-Ject and Rega turntables among others is all it takes to see how slight alterations in appearance drive pricing without truly raising the performance bar from model to model. This changes, of course, with their top models.

I don't think it is paramount that a high-end store display a wide selection of premium high-end turntables but the showrooms should include at least two high quality turntable/tonearm rigs to set a benchmark for what can be achieved. You will still need to cater to newbee's and hipsters at some level so that everyone has an opportunity to have there desires met within specific budgets. These turntables are only used as an example, but something like a Clearaudio Innovation and Avid Acutus to audition, plus a several entry level turntables from the same companies or others would provide a sufficient selection. Having your line card provide access to other manufacturer's turntables, tonearms, and phono cartridges would be icing on the cake.
 
Mike -

IMHO, i don't think you need another line. With Rega, VPI and Kronos you have products from $1K to over $50K. Unless, you wanted to represent a line in the $100K range - e.g. Air Force level.

I do like the AMG tables and SME products are built to last forever and sound fantastic.

The question, is there a price gap you are trying to fill?

My 2 cents!
 
Ritmo said:
Mike -

IMHO, i don't think you need another line. With Rega, VPI and Kronos you have products from $1K to over $50K. Unless, you wanted to represent a line in the $100K range - e.g. Air Force level.

I do like the AMG tables and SME products are built to last forever and sound fantastic.

The question, is there a price gap you are trying to fill?

My 2 cents!
Click to expand...

Brinkmann would be cool, but I think the old man might be a bit difficult to deal with.


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You could support another American company - Spiral Groove. Allen Perkins is the bees knees in every regard. I had three tables (amg v12, clearaudio innovation wood with battery supply, and SG 1.2). Based on engineering, sound, interface etc i deemed Spiral Groove the best and sold the other two. You could also add something a bit different above Rega and below the others - Luxman. Or for smaller footprint the Thales line.


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Dpod4 said:
You could support another American company - Spiral Groove. Allen Perkins is the bees knees in every regard. I had three tables (amg v12, clearaudio innovation wood with battery supply, and SG 1.2). Based on engineering, sound, interface etc i deemed Spiral Groove the best and sold the other two. You could also add something a bit different above Rega and below the others - Luxman. Or for smaller footprint the Thales line.


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Click to expand...

Excellent choice. Spiral Groove is a company that maintains its product line in tact - which helps it's legacy and they sound really good. They do bring out new products from time to time, that are genuinely better sounding
Perhaps Mike could bring Spiral Groove buzz back to the hifi world :)
 
XV-1 said:
Excellent choice. Spiral Groove is a company that maintains its product line in tact - which helps it's legacy and they sound really good. They do bring out new products from time to time, that are genuinely better sounding
Perhaps Mike could bring Spiral Groove buzz back to the hifi world :)
Click to expand...

I am happy to make the intro if Mike wants me to.


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Mike said:
We keep reading how vinyl is making great strides in terms of new sales. Turntable sales are up. People are loving vinyl.

But has this new love transferred over to high end audio?

As I looked for a turntable brand to position between VPI/Rega and Kronos, I kept running into great high end brands that looked to be on their last legs or others that were "here today, gone tomorrow".

A few examples: SME and Avid. I absolutely LOVE both these products. But....

Even AMG was all the rage 2 years ago and now it seems a little quiet.

And let me clarify for the record, these are ALL great products, great companies, but they aren't talked about very much any more.

Why? What gives?
Click to expand...

[h=1]Major Update to AVID Acutus Reference Turntable![/h]
Acutus_Reference_mono_PSU.jpg

http://www.tonepublications.com/industry-news/major-update-to-avid-acutus-reference-turntable/
 
So, how good is the Acutus? I've heard it briefly at a dealer's, but that was too short an audition to tell.


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