Tube line stage for Luxman M900u?

JSQT

JSQT

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Joined
Dec 23, 2018
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Location
Salem VA
Hey there folks

I recently lucked into the opportunity to snag one of my dream amps, the Luxman M900u. I had the L509X in the past and always have had regret about letting it go (along with several other near and dear Luxman vintage products I have also owned the DA-06 and 2 MQ88u-SE amps so I have been a big fan of Luxman).

Recently my system features PrimaLuna Evo 300 preamp and 2 PL 300 monoblocks, which I have been very happy with. But the Luxman has that sweet Luxman sound and visceral dynamics that makes my Volti Rivals sing like no other amp I’ve had in the system. Additionally it has a distinctive high end resolution that is hard to describe unless you’ve heard it.

While I love the Evo 300 preamp and it punches far above its weight, it is outclassed resolution-wise by the Luxman. I love the soundstage and depth and holographic sound of the tube pre but it’s clear that there is that last 10% of resolution I didn’t know I was missing until I put it in front of the M900u.

So I am in a bind with finding a proper tube preamp for the Luxman and I have a lot of ideas. But I have very few opportunities to audition without shipping a lot of gear in and demo’ing from home whenever possible.

I’m looking for a pre that can match the Luxman in terms of resolution and refinement/detail but that can match the PrimaLuna in terms of engaging sound, holographic depth and that extra “zing” you only find in certain tube amps that DO NOT go overboard with the tube sound. I’m not looking for a muddy/warm yet holographic pre. More like a resolving, detailed and dynamic tube pre that makes the speakers disappear.

My budget is $7-10K so there is a “new” category of potential preamps like the LTA MicroZOTL and the Backert Labs Rhythm 1.3, then there is the gently used category of candidates of which right now Doshi is a candidate (local company) as well as the usual suspects (ARC REF 6, etc).

I have owned the Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme before and loved it. It’s strengths were dynamics and resolution but it was definitely a more solid-state sounding preamp, even when matched with the Luxman MQ88uSE. So I am really interested in the Rhythm (sorry aesthetics do matter and I really like the way this looks vs the Rhumba). BUT I am afraid it may be too solid state sounding, matching the Luxman in dynamics and resolution but falling short of the depth and imaging of the Primaluna.

I have no experience with the LTA gear but it comes very highly recommended (also by at least one other Volti owner). But my concerns there are the same as the Backert Labs that it may be a little too solid state sounding, and I’m not sure how it would match up with the M900u.

I have absolutely no experience with Doshi or ARC. The Doshi comes highly recommended and I have a line on a gently used one. I know Doshi’s phono and tape pre’s get rave reviews as well as the glowing amp review in the recent stereophile but I have found surprisingly little on the line stage which is not encouraging. With REF 6 I have no knowledge of these preamps other than they are very popular and there’s a lot of them on the used market which may be a little telling.

Anyone here have experience putting a valve line stage in front of the M900u? Would love to hear experiences and/or suggestions.
 
Congrats on the new amp. A real keeper for sure.
I have heard the EVO 300 and completely agree with your assessment.
Of those pre's mentioned I have heard the LTA and the ARC Ref 6. IMO they are not what you are looking for.
While both are good in their own way, they are both definitely into the clean clear detailed and somewhat lean side.
While a good match with some equipment/systems, they are not what you are requiring.
The Alnic pre was nice and comes close to the balancing act your looking for.
Have heard really good things about Supratek but have not personally heard one.
Good luck with your search.
 
Thanks - I have seen some of the Allnics on Audiogon - the DHT pres look really nice but they are a bit out of my budget, and I would hate to spend that much money on something I’ve never heard, so that kind of rules out the used market. What you are saying about the LTA makes sense, I have read similar comments about the very clean yet somewhat lean sound of the LTA gear.
 
We all tend to recommend what equipment we own so here goes. An Ayon Auris II can be had for under $9000 with the option of returning it if it doesn't work in your system. I replaced a highly regarded piece with the Auris II and it's performance advantage was evident within about 15 seconds. It's a large, heavy unit with a large amount of that heft attributable to the power supply, so don't dismiss it as it is single box . Ayon spends a large amount of effort in the voicing, power supply stiffness and quality of their pure triode Class A output stages. No transistors here. I have had 3 Ayon pieces and have been thrilled with each one. Call me an Ayon fan boy I guess. Good luck.
 
Thanks Stereogeek, I’ve seen the Ayon stuff on Audiogon but I don’t know much about them as a company; it seems their only US distributor is the place in Arizona that distributes Lumen speakers and Ayon and advertises on Audiogon - do they have any other dealers? That may be an interesting shootout - the $9K Auris II vs the $9K Backert Labs Rhythm 1.3!
 
I have an M900u and love it. I drive it directly from my Bricasti Dac.
I know you said tubes, but have you considered matching C900u? This is supposed to be a match made in heaven. Mike at Suncoast loves this combo! I think you could get a used one in your budget. Might be worth waiting for one to come up for sale.
 
Thanks I appreciate the feedback from a fellow M900u owner! Interesting that you are driving it using the DAC as a pre, I have heard it works really well for some, and others feel like they benefit best with the preamp. I guess it depends on the DAC! I am very much interested in the tube preamp though... I have owned an L509X in the past and at the same time owned a Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme and a Luxman MQu88SE at the same time and extensively did listening tests back and forth... ultimately I liked the Backert Labs pre with the L509X amplification best (using the Main In function on the 509X), the Luxman 509X preamp (which I have read is very similar to the C700u) was very good but it just did not have the same depth and engagement for me as the tube preamp. The biggest mistake was selling the 509X then and going with the BL preamp and MQ88uSE combo because I felt the need to go either one direction or the other - I am glad I got a Luxman back into the system. That being said I probably would pounce on a C900u if the price was right. But I think I've seen maybe 2 of them for sale on the used market over the past couple of years (very rare) and I think there's something like a 5-6 month wait on any new Luxman gear at all at this point, so I am not that patient LOL. At this point I'm strongly considering the Backert Labs Rhthym or maybe just staying put with the Primaluna Evo preamp for the long-term, as although it does have some shortcomings it is the devil I currently know versus bringing in another X factor and throwing myself off track again.
 
If you enjoy the warmth and bloom of your EVO 300, I don't think you would enjoy the C900u.
I have heard it in a friends Luxman system. It is very good. I would consider it as neutral sounding.
It does everything well but just does not have the "golden glow" of tube gear. IMO.
 
Thanks David - although I wouldn’t necessarily say the Primaluna preamp is overly warm nor bloom-y lest anyone get the idea that I am looking for a warm, syrupy tube preamp with lots of bloom. Sorry, I am maybe mischaracterizing what I hear from the Primaluna but to me it sounds more neutral while still holographic … my impressions may come from having swapped just about all of the tubes in both the preamp and the amps - but that being said I’m looking for a bit more resolution than what it can provide without losing that spacious front to back soundstage and imaging. Your post does ring true though, I would have suspected the C900u is a bit more neutral and linear than what I’m looking for.
 
JSQT said:
Thanks Stereogeek, I’ve seen the Ayon stuff on Audiogon but I don’t know much about them as a company; it seems their only US distributor is the place in Arizona that distributes Lumen speakers and Ayon and advertises on Audiogon - do they have any other dealers? That may be an interesting shootout - the $9K Auris II vs the $9K Backert Labs Rhythm 1.3!
Click to expand...
I don't believe they have other dealers but Paul is great to work with and has been straight up with me. BTW, every Ayon review says the same thing, very vivid and very musical. Good luck.
 
You might not want to play "roulette" here, just get the C900u. I tried the M900u with my ARC Ref6SE and ended up selling the M900u. It didn't sound right to me, too bright and shrill, limited bass. I think the M900u is probably great, but you need the matching preamp to make it great.

There's also the much more expensive CL1000 tube preamp from Luxman. I bet that would be fantastic.

After personally having difficulties mixing and matching brands, I think it makes sense to take the guesswork out and just get the same brand.
 
I heard Doshi once but a preamp/amp combo, one of the best systems I heard with Wilson speakers. I can't remember much about the imaging though, it was at a show so audition was brief.

I wonder since Doshi is local if they'd allow you to home audition a preamp or bring one over.

Octave Audio is more solid state in response but does image very well.
 
2fastdriving said:
You might not want to play "roulette" here, just get the C900u. I tried the M900u with my ARC Ref6SE and ended up selling the M900u. It didn't sound right to me, too bright and shrill, limited bass. I think the M900u is probably great, but you need the matching preamp to make it great.

There's also the much more expensive CL1000 tube preamp from Luxman. I bet that would be fantastic.

After personally having difficulties mixing and matching brands, I think it makes sense to take the guesswork out and just get the same brand.
Click to expand...

Thanks Marc - appreciate the feedback from another (ex) M900u owner - just curious, what did you replace it with to match your REF6SE? And curious what drove the decision to keep the ARC preamp and sell the Luxman, versus swapping out the ARC for a different preamp (presumably the C900u?)…

I have heard, maybe it was reading through some of Jay’s experiences, that the C900u was the ultimate match for the M900u. But truth be told the Primaluna sounds surprisingly great with it, aside from that last small % of resolution and refinement which is what I’m looking for. So I think it is possible to match a good valve linestage with the amp but my problem is not being able to hear many of them and I don’t want to regret whatever decision I ultimately make because it turns out it was a sorry match to begin with.

I mentioned earlier the C900u’s are rare as hens’ teeth these days but I would love to hear one in my system.

And oh yea, the CL1000 looks really nice but I think it’s overkill for my use (I don’t do vinyl).

I’m also getting seduced by the idea of DHT and the Allnic L8000 DHT is looking very nice, but it would be really hard to swing the $$ after dropping the cash on the Luxman amp. But still, I have heard that once you hear DHT magic it is pretty unforgettable. Doshi and Backert Labs are still in the mix, and a DHT alternative of course is the Vinnie Rossi LS2 Signature. I’m actually not sure if he’s still making them or not. I read somewhere the LS2i integrated may be on the way out.
 
Mr Peabody said:
I heard Doshi once but a preamp/amp combo, one of the best systems I heard with Wilson speakers. I can't remember much about the imaging though, it was at a show so audition was brief.

I wonder since Doshi is local if they'd allow you to home audition a preamp or bring one over.

Octave Audio is more solid state in response but does image very well.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your experience with the Doshi… that is nice to hear a vote of confidence. I can actually get a Doshi line stage sent down to demo, I would just have to pay for shipping. If I end up ruling out the Allnic and it comes down to Doshi, Ayon, or Backert Labs, I’ll probably have one of each sent down since they all have a decent demo policy.
 
JSQT said:
Thanks Marc - appreciate the feedback from another (ex) M900u owner - just curious, what did you replace it with to match your REF6SE? And curious what drove the decision to keep the ARC preamp and sell the Luxman, versus swapping out the ARC for a different preamp (presumably the C900u?)…

I have heard, maybe it was reading through some of Jay’s experiences, that the C900u was the ultimate match for the M900u. But truth be told the Primaluna sounds surprisingly great with it, aside from that last small % of resolution and refinement which is what I’m looking for. So I think it is possible to match a good valve linestage with the amp but my problem is not being able to hear many of them and I don’t want to regret whatever decision I ultimately make because it turns out it was a sorry match to begin with.

I mentioned earlier the C900u’s are rare as hens’ teeth these days but I would love to hear one in my system.

And oh yea, the CL1000 looks really nice but I think it’s overkill for my use (I don’t do vinyl) and probably a little overpriced. I’d be more tempted with a $14K price tag than a $19K price tag.

I’m also getting seduced by the idea of DHT and the Allnic L8000 DHT is looking very nice, but it would be really hard to swing the $$ after dropping the cash on the Luxman amp. But still, I have heard that once you hear DHT magic it is pretty unforgettable. Doshi and Backert Labs are still in the mix, and a DHT alternative of course is the Vinnie Rossi LS2 Signature. I’m actually not sure if he’s still making them or not. I read somewhere the LS2i integrated may be on the way out.
Click to expand...

I have been a longtime ARC fan, and have had ARC pre's and amps for many years. I had JUST upgraded my Ref6 to an SE at the time. When faced with the decision to go all-in on Luxman or ARC, I decided to stick with what I know and go all-in on ARC. That meant getting Ref160 monos, and I was able to snag a great deal on a pair. I am happy with my decision.

I heard heard so much good press on the M900u that I just couldn't understand why it didn't work for me, until I realized the synergy is just not there between the ARC and the Luxman. I like both brands, but only with their own matching products.

I know that it's definitely possible to mix and match and have it turn out great, but there is risk involved if you can't audition, so be careful. YMMV.
 
Well just to wrap this up I finally narrowed down my choices to the Backert Labs Rhythm 1.3 and the Doshi V3 linestage. Both exceptionally well-regarded tube preamps handmade just a few hundred miles from my home. They will both arrive tomorrow which will set the stage for a 3 way shootout between the Evo 300 and the 2 contenders. Should be a fun weekend!
 
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