Step Up Transformers

[Asamel]

I'm thinking of adding a step up transformer to my system. Any thoughts?

 

[puroagave]

if they're matched properly to your cart, imho its the best compromise between adding another active gain stage or two and more veils on top of the signal, SUTs are like a signal boost with the best possible s/n and minimal 'additives', thats my experience. I'm sure the detractors will chime in, but the entire recording chain up to the point its put on tape or hard drive uses multitudes of xfmrs in the recording process. My phono section has custom Jensen mic xfmrs adapted for LOMC carts and its very transparent.

 

[mep]

Here comes detractor #1 Rob. I'm not a big fan of SUTs. I paid a small fortune to Michael Elliot to install a pair in my Counterpoint SA-5.1 that was heavily modified by Michael. I wanted to replace my Counterpoint SA-2 pre-preamp because even though I loved the sound of it, it was pure tube and noisy as a consequence. When I got my SA-5.1 back with the SUTs in it and played music, I freaked out because I did not like the changes they had wrought. They sucked the life out of my LPs. I had to send my SA-5.1 back to Michael and have him remove the SUTs.

Back in the days when I was a young man and was still visible to young women (once you reach a certain age, you become invisible to women who are younger than you and if you don't understand that yet, you will), I had a Denon MC cartridge that came with it's own SUT and I used it for a couple of years. I remember it being on the bright side of life, but it was the best I could afford at the time.

If you look at the FR of SUTs, you can see they are not flat. Some are better than others though like all things in life. Some SUTs have a tendency to ring at high frequencies which you may or may not hear as added brightness. The bottom line is there is no free lunch. Yes, transformers will step your voltage from your MC cartridge and they will do it very quietly. Does it have the 'life' of active gain though? Those who love passive devices will say yes.

For those who love tubes (and shame on you if you don't), the best of both worlds is to have a phono stage that uses JFETs as the first stage which then drives the tube stage. The JFET lifts/amplifies the signal out of the tube's noise floor before it reaches the tube stage. So now you can have a very low noise floor and still maintain tubes in your phono stage. That's where I will be heading back to. For the here and now I'm using a Krell KPE Reference phono stage which is of course pure SS and designed only for MC cartridges. And yes, it sounds damn good and it is quiet.

 

[Dpod4]

I think it is the most system dependent component of any. I have 4 cartridges. Have tried all manner of different combinations (every cartridge into every option). Here is what sounds best in my system:

- Goldfinger Statement into Kondo SUT into MM input of Air Tight Ref 2001 preamp

- Benz LP-S into ARC Ref 2se high gain (MC) at 500 loading

- MC Anna into ARC Ref2se high gain (MC) at 50 loading

- Miyajima Zero mono cartridge into Bob's Devices SUT into Herron VTPH-2MC's MM input. This sounds slightly more full and textured than straight into Air Tight Ref 2001's MC input (with mono switch on) which uses an SUT for additional gain.

So I have two cartridges that clearly benefit from properly matched SUT.

 

[puroagave]

Mark my friend...and we're still friends:hey: we'll have to agree to dissagre. You can't base an opinion on one bad experience (Mike Elliot) unless you can tell me you tried literally dozens of phono front ends with SUTs. I haven't tried dozens but I've had a half dozen SUTs in my system over the last two years, all matched up with tube stages. In the same period i had several near-reference level SS phono stages incl your beloved Krell KPE, none of them even the Klyne I just sold brought the music to life in the same manner as SUT equipped tube stages have.

SUT's have the further advantage of being inherently balanced, I have a 5-pin XLR at my preamp's input that keeps the signal balanced from the headshell leads direct to the first tube stage - and its as quiet as the quietest SS phonostage ive owned (Whest PS.30R) As for FR curves, ringing etc, i can promise you I don't hear such things and relates to a miss-match of some sort, besides its of little to no consequence when its the SQ that matters most. lets face it, if measurements were all that mattered neither of us would be listening to tubes or analog.:bonkers: Just for kicks i've attached few pics from my a'gon ads, all these SS devices cant be good for the signal. My present phono stage has a xmfr, two tubes and maybe 20 other components per channel, max. how many does the Krell use, a hundred plus?

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Here comes detractor #1 Rob. I'm not a big fan of SUTs. I paid a small fortune to Michael Elliot to install a pair in my Counterpoint SA-5.1 that was heavily modified by Michael. I wanted to replace my Counterpoint SA-2 pre-preamp because even though I loved the sound of it, it was pure tube and noisy as a consequence. When I got my SA-5.1 back with the SUTs in it and played music, I freaked out because I did not like the changes they had wrought. They sucked the life out of my LPs. I had to send my SA-5.1 back to Michael and have him remove the SUTs.

Back in the days when I was a young man and was still visible to young women (once you reach a certain age, you become invisible to women who are younger than you and if you don't understand that yet, you will), I had a Denon MC cartridge that came with it's own SUT and I used it for a couple of years. I remember it being on the bright side of life, but it was the best I could afford at the time.

If you look at the FR of SUTs, you can see they are not flat. Some are better than others though like all things in life. Some SUTs have a tendency to ring at high frequencies which you may or may not hear as added brightness. The bottom line is there is no free lunch. Yes, transformers will step your voltage from your MC cartridge and they will do it very quietly. Does it have the 'life' of active gain though? Those who love passive devices will say yes.

For those who love tubes (and shame on you if you don't), the best of both worlds is to have a phono stage that uses JFETs as the first stage which then drives the tube stage. The JFET lifts/amplifies the signal out of the tube's noise floor before it reaches the tube stage. So now you can have a very low noise floor and still maintain tubes in your phono stage. That's where I will be heading back to. For the here and now I'm using a Krell KPE Reference phono stage which is of course pure SS and designed only for MC cartridges. And yes, it sounds damn good and it is quiet.

mep,

Very well written; especially the apart about invisibility. I am trying to figure out a phono stage and have been trying to get this right. I want tubes in the vinyl side and have been trying to find the best gain sequence to maximize dynamics etc. while limiting noise. I have started to believe the best option is indeed an SS first stage going into tubes (like ARC and Doshi) as opposed to an internal SUT or external tube head amp (like Allnic).

Do you feel any of the tube magic is lost by starting the gain at its infancy with SS? Certainly many feel the ARC stuff has more of a SS sound than many all tube phonos, (all though i haven't heard Nick's pre described as an SS sound).

 

[mep]

Paul-To answer your question about losing any of the tube magic by using JFETs in the front end, the answer is....yes and no. How's that for a simple answer? Seriously, I just don't think you can get away with running low output MC cartridges with a pure tube phono preamp unless you are willing to put up with a bunch of noise. I used to tolerate all kinds of noise and shrugged it off when I was younger but those days are gone. Now days I view noise as the devil that must be exorcised from your system. Anyone who was at RMAF this year and visited the Jeff Joseph room where he was demonstrating using vinyl with a VPI preamp that had a pure tube phono stage with lots of gain (I believe it was the TL5.5 Series II with 66dB of gain) heard what I heard, and that was lots of tube noise. It was so loud the guy in front of me asked Jeff if that was the preamp or the air conditioner making all of that racket. Jeff replied "both," and proceeded to turn off the air conditioner. It didn't matter though, the noise from the phono stage was still quite obvious and oppressive (to me).

It's just my opinion that if you want to use a LOMC cartridge and you don't like the sound of tube noise riding on your signal as you are trying to listen, you are better off going with a hybrid phono stage that uses JFETs and tubes like ARC and Doshi do as well as the Manley Chinook. I will also be reviewing the Hagerman Audio Labs Trumpet Reference phono stage and it too uses JFETs in the first stage. The Trumpet Reference was on display downstairs at RMAF in the room that sold LPs and I was mightily impressed when I saw the innards. This is one beautifully built preamp that uses premium parts. It has 4 big chokes in the power supply and a big, beefy power transformer. I'm stoked to hear this phono preamp in my system.

 

[mep]

Mark my friend...and we're still friends:hey: we'll have to agree to dissagre. You can't base an opinion on one bad experience (Mike Elliot) unless you can tell me you tried literally dozens of phono front ends with SUTs. I haven't tried dozens but I've had a half dozen SUTs in my system over the last two years, all matched up with tube stages. In the same period i had several near-reference level SS phono stages incl your beloved Krell KPE, none of them even the Klyne I just sold brought the music to life in the same manner as SUT equipped tube stages have.

SUT's have the further advantage of being inherently balanced, I have a 5-pin XLR at my preamp's input that keeps the signal balanced from the headshell leads direct to the first tube stage - and its as quiet as the quietest SS phonostage ive owned (Whest PS.30R) As for FR curves, ringing etc, i can promise you I don't hear such things and relates to a miss-match of some sort, besides its of little to no consequence when its the SQ that matters most. lets face it, if measurements were all that mattered neither of us would be listening to tubes or analog.:bonkers: Just for kicks i've attached few pics from my a'gon ads, all these SS devices cant be good for the signal. My present phono stage has a xmfr, two tubes and maybe 20 other components per channel, max. how many does the Krell use, a hundred plus?

Rob-I wrote a response to you and somehow it disappeared. I think I became "unlogged in" and my post vanished in the bit bucket. You are absolutely correct that I don't have tons of experience listening to SUTs and people need to keep that in mind. I do have the latest Atma-Sphere MP-3 preamp winging my way for review and it does have SUTs in the phono stage. I'm anxious to hear it and it will give me another reference point.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Paul-To answer your question about losing any of the tube magic by using JFETs in the front end, the answer is....yes and no. How's that for a simple answer? Seriously, I just don't think you can get away with running low output MC cartridges with a pure tube phono preamp unless you are willing to put up with a bunch of noise. I used to tolerate all kinds of noise and shrugged it off when I was younger but those days are gone. Now days I view noise as the devil that must be exorcised from your system. Anyone who was at RMAF this year and visited the Jeff Joseph room where he was demonstrating using vinyl with a VPI preamp that had a pure tube phono stage with lots of gain (I believe it was the TL5.5 Series II with 66dB of gain) heard what I heard, and that was lots of tube noise. It was so loud the guy in front of me asked Jeff if that was the preamp or the air conditioner making all of that racket. Jeff replied "both," and proceeded to turn off the air conditioner. It didn't matter though, the noise from the phono stage was still quite obvious and oppressive (to me).

It's just my opinion that if you want to use a LOMC cartridge and you don't like the sound of tube noise riding on your signal as you are trying to listen, you are better off going with a hybrid phono stage that uses JFETs and tubes like ARC and Doshi do as well as the Manley Chinook. I will also be reviewing the Hagerman Audio Labs Trumpet Reference phono stage and it too uses JFETs in the first stage. The Trumpet Reference was on display downstairs at RMAF in the room that sold LPs and I was mightily impressed when I saw the innards. This is one beautifully built preamp that uses premium parts. It has 4 big chokes in the power supply and a big, beefy power transformer. I'm stoked to hear this phono preamp in my system.

Thanks Mep, I have read a little about the Trumpet. I am very interested to heart your view (it looks cool too).

 

[BobM]

If you have a LOMC that puts out less than 1 millivolt then a phono stage with lots of headroom (@70db) is required. That more or less means solid state.

But if you are a tube lover and want/have a tubed phono stage then it is likely there is only @56db of gain available and you need a step up. It is true that any step up will likely work, but if you want to optomize your sound (we are audiophiles after all) then you need one matched to your cartridge. That means it will be costly, and probably not transferable to another cartridge that you may buy in the future.

That's why I like the Hagerman Piccolo head amp. I've tested it against several step up transformers and it usually comes out ahead, or is at least as good to my ears. It has different gain and loading adjustments built in so it is almost future proof. It is also quiet and transparent. Worth checking out for sure.

 

[Albert]

I used to use an ARC PH3 phono amp for my Denon DL-103R and though it worked alright the gain was a little low for the Denon. I bought a Cinemag SUT for it and it boosted the gain and improved dynamics but I had trouble with a 60 hz hum. I had to move the cables just right to limit this but I just couldn't completely get rid of it. I am not sure if this was a cable problem or a grounding problem in the SUT but I removed the SUT as the hum was too irritating.

I then changed my Threshold T3 preamp and ARC PH3 for a Jeff Rowland Consummate with phono stage and problem solved. The phono stage is quite adjustable and is very quiet. I haven't tried a tube preamp but I do use a tubed power amp (Ray Lumley M-100 mono blocks).

The Threshold and ARC amps went into a bedroom system with a Thorens TD-146 table that has an Ortofon MM cartridge. Works great.

 

[zuluwarrior0760]

This post is timely as I'm just now entering the world of SUT.....
After a turntable and cartridge change, I've determined my phono pre just needs
a little kick in the pants......a little too dark for my tastes. I borrowed an Ortofon SE
SUT to audition with my new cartridge and arm which is also Ortofon and my impression
after a few days burn in was "now we're on to something"......everything became
more fleshed out and three dimensional.....more air etc....

On the advice of my dealer, I investigated the Hashimoto based SUTs which
come in two flavors, the HM3 and HM7 which is the more expensive of the two....
That typically means a company called Choir Audio, which lists no phone number
on their website.....my dealer spoke highly of them, but after 6 emails to both
his listed addresses, no response in a week and a half......so I ventured to see
if there was another source for a Hashimoto based unit and it turned out the
president of the company distributing Hashimoto in the U.S. also produces SUT's
sound-tradition dot com......His website is from 2007, but he sent me photos
of his current models and I was impressed. The pricing was quite competitive
with the others I had looked at......so I went with the HM7 based transformers...
I'll tell you how it sounds.....

My latest component set is:

Merrill Williams 101.2 TT
Ortofon TA210 12" arm
Ortofon Cadenza Black
Phono stage is Convergent Audio Technologies SL1 Renaissance Phono
Amps Bryston 7bsst2
Upcoming SUT (Traditions Audio 907MC)
Speakers Magnepan 3.7
Digital Esoteric K03
Bryston BDP2
Cabling: Furutech/G Huffman/Bryston
Conditioning: Shunyata Hydra 6

 

[Asamel]

Could you post the picture?

 

[zuluwarrior0760]

 

[puroagave]

Rob-I wrote a response to you and somehow it disappeared. I think I became "unlogged in" and my post vanished in the bit bucket. You are absolutely correct that I don't have tons of experience listening to SUTs and people need to keep that in mind. I do have the latest Atma-Sphere MP-3 preamp winging my way for review and it does have SUTs in the phono stage. I'm anxious to hear it and it will give me another reference point.

if you can bypass the SUTs in the MP-3 and borrow a SS head amp like the hagerman, or better yet something like the Klyne SK2, I would be interested in your observations. My pre has separate phono inputs and the ability to bypass the internal SUT and try an external SUT or a head amp.

 

[zuluwarrior0760]

Step up transformer shown in following video:

WARNING:
This video contains music by Jazz singer Diana Krall.
If you have irritable bowel syndrome or any disorder
that might make you more prone to periods of
spastic vomiting please enter with caution:

 

[blackdog]

I've built preamps with both JFET and transformer step up and the consensus seems to be JFET (or high gain circuitry) for solid state and SUT for tube gear. The SUT is considerably quieter when used with tubes than an active SS gain stage and the synergy seems to be better. I use Lundahl transformers as a rule. These seem to have the best bandwidth and are very smooth through the audible range.

 

[mep]

if you can bypass the SUTs in the MP-3 and borrow a SS head amp like the hagerman, or better yet something like the Klyne SK2, I would be interested in your observations. My pre has separate phono inputs and the ability to bypass the internal SUT and try other SUTs or a head amp.

I stand corrected-the MP-3 that was sent to me does not have SUTs.

 

[puroagave]

I've built preamps with both JFET and transformer step up and the consensus seems to be JFET (or high gain circuitry) for solid state and SUT for tube gear. The SUT is considerably quieter when used with tubes than an active SS gain stage and the synergy seems to be better. I use Lundahl transformers as a rule. These seem to have the best bandwidth and are very smooth through the audible range.

which Lundhal? K&K carries one that's wound with 6n cardas copper and another version thats pure silver.

 

[blackdog]

which Lundhal?

I've used the LL1931 or LL1941 depending on gain requirements, or for the budget minded the LL1681.
I use the Cardas wound ones. I have not tried the silver ones as it's hard to justify the extra $550.00 per transformer.