Questions about the age old arguement on whether one can hear differences in cables

[Shadowfax]

Not trying to start anything here as far as pro or con to the beliefs that cables can sound different.

On one side there is the group that claims that wires cannot sound different due to theory, yet they have never tried themselves or don't have gear that would show it. That group is always talking Double Blind Testing and if it cannot be done that way, it is all just that one wants to believe it sounds different.

After reading thru Kiwi's awesome thread about his room and gear showing all the measurements and graphs, I started rethinking the issue.

Why cannot one take these kinds of measurements and graphs with one set of cables and then generate another set of measurements and graphs with a second set of cables with no other changes to setup or volume. That would rule out any ones hearing or bias.

Would the 2 graphs be identical?

My uneducated guess would be that they have to be different.

Would that not prove there is a difference between any 2 given sets of cables?

 

[still-one]

Brian
Which measurements would identify differences in imaging, depth or width of soundstage?

 

[Shadowfax]

Brian
Which measurements would identify differences in imaging, depth or width of soundstage?

Jim, I am not educated enough to know any of that but was just thinking that a recording device should be able to show a difference, whatever that difference may be, because the graphs would be different.

I am not digging deep enough to demonstrate imaging, depth or soundstage, just that there is a measurable and with a graph, visual differences that prove that there is a difference. Good bad or otherwise, but somehow different.

 

[Mike]

Brian - at CES, Shunyata had a great demo. They had set up a scope and projected it onto a larger screen for all to see. They plugged in a "stock" power cord into the scope, turned on a paper shredder in the outlet next to it and you could see the noise/spikes all over the scope. They then disconnected the "stock" power cable, plugged in the Alpha Digital, turned on the paper shredder and the scope was dead flat. AMAZING! The big cable nay sayers even left the room shaking their heads.

 

[Shadowfax]

Mike,

That is exactly what I am talking about.

Has this similar test been done with ICs and Speaker cables? If so, it should end the debate once and for all.

 

[Rayooo]

No doubt that some power cables are and have been built with noise filtering inherent within the power cable itself.
Any person, whether residing in the subjective or objective camp, should at least be able to comprehend this "filtering"...it's easily viewable on a Scope especially with an electrically noisy environment.

I might also make the argument that any well designed piece of audio gear would provide ample power noise filtering within the device itself......which would in some cases eliminate the need for external filtering, or in other cases gear with insufficient internal A.C. noise filtering could for sure benefit from some type(s) of external filtering.

When it comes to interconnects, speaker cables, digital cables, it get's a bit more fuzzy. (IMO)
If for instance a given analog interconnect cable sounds different than another in some fashion, I'm of firm belief that this difference would be measurable in some way.... even if no easily attainable test equipment is sensitive enough to measure the difference, it must be there. 'else one is heading down into a weird world where effects have no cause.
I consider myself as goofy as the next audiophile, but, I've not suspended my belief in physical laws. e.g. cause and effect.....at least for the rest of today.

 

[iosiP]

Rayooo, the fact we cannot measure the causes does not mean there aren't any, but just that we have not learnt to identify them, and also that we (still) have no clue as to which change in electromagnetical properties affects our perception of sound and how much.

Just listen to a high quality audio system and then move a speaker 1": I guarantee you will hear differences. Mow do the math (considering the speed of sound and thus the additional delay involved by a 1" differential) and most people will tell you you cannot hear the extra few miliseconds of delay, or the few degrees of phase change (even at high frequencies).

There is a lot to be said about the subject: just think that Meridian implements the balance control in their active speakers without affecting the volume - they just play with the phase of the signal.

 

[CPP]

Brian - at CES, Shunyata had a great demo. They had set up a scope and projected it onto a larger screen for all to see. They plugged in a "stock" power cord into the scope, turned on a paper shredder in the outlet next to it and you could see the noise/spikes all over the scope. They then disconnected the "stock" power cable, plugged in the Alpha Digital, turned on the paper shredder and the scope was dead flat. AMAZING! The big cable nay sayers even left the room shaking their heads.

Hi Mike I saw that demo... I ordered me one of those Shunyata Zitron power cables well my electrician being a techy was over installing a few lights and noticed what I was doing, well we plugged in the Zitrona and he said lets see if we can hear any difference. Well he noticed something. Me I thought I did but more to the neutral side. He unplugged my cord, he took out his fluke noise analyzer checked the outlets, he saw some noise, so he went to the breaker box. A few minutes later he came back checked the outlet with his fluke, noise gone. Plugged the power cord back it, he could not hear any change nor could I between my stock cord. So back went the Shunyata. I cost me $75 to fix that little issue, but we did at first here something.

 

[Naim101]

I can definately tell the difference between cables. Lower distortion, better imaging/soundstage and some cables do it better. I've also experienced difference in tonality as well from ribbon to copper.