New DAC Question after swapping out L509X for Rogue CMII integrated

JSQT

JSQT

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Joined
Dec 23, 2018
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Location
Salem VA
I've decided to move my Rogue Cronus Magnum II integrated amp into my main listening room, replacing my Luxman 509X (heresy, I know). I had found myself listening to the CM2 more in my office than I was listening to my 509X in the big system with the La Scala IIs, and I was surprised to find the CM2 sounds amazing with the La Scala IIs and JL Audio sub. Sure, there is a slight loss in refinement and detail, but I have found the music simply more engaging through the Rogue integrated.

Before this swap, I had ordered a Chord Qutest for the Rogue in my office system and was using my Luxman DA-06 in the main room with the 509X. The plan was to upgrade the DA-06 to an MSB Discrete within the next few months.

Now, however, I have some reservations about upgrading to a $10K DAC with only a $2400 integrated in my main system. Will it be worth the extra fidelity running through a tube amp?

I haven't received the Qutest yet, but my plan right now is to move the DA-06 into my office with my vintage Luxman separates/Heresy IIIs and use the Qutest with the Rogue/La Scala combo.

Any help or advice on these upgrade plans?

Thanks!
 
My first thought, if you are getting an engaging sound now and synergy, just keep things the same.
I do however feel strongly that having a good source is a must.

I have to confess though I'm not familiar with your current DAC so don't want to make any recommendations for change, if one is even necessary.
 
The Qutest is a decent DAC. Very organic sounding with good timing.
Why not just wait and give it a try before pushing on?
On the other side of the coin, if you can afford an MSB, GO for it. (LOL).
 
Thanks for the responses. The Luxman DA-06 is a very liquid and dynamic DAC and is a great pairing with the 509X. I'm currently using an Ayre Codex with my vintage system in my office and it's a decent DAC but nothing remarkable. The original idea was to use the Qutest in my office system then eventually replace the DA-06 with the MSB in the main room to pair with the 509X to further improve depth of sound and warm up the detail from the 509X.

Now that I've moved the 509X out of the picture, the Rogue tube integrated has improved the depth of sound and warmth at the expense of some of the detail. Examples are brush snares that sound a little hash-y now and less like "you can count the bristles" like you could with the 509X. Some distorted guitars (the drone notes in Natalie Merchant's live version of "Carnival," etc) have a little too much glare, etc.

I am thinking the MSB can definitely improve those things with the Rogue, but it's a cost/component mindset with me ($2400 integrated with $10K+ digital front end).

I guess in the end all that really matters is the sound... I can sell the 509X and the DA-06 and Ayre Codex to put toward the MSB and keep the Qutest in the office system with the vintage Luxman separates.

Thanks for the replies!
 
The Exical DAC at $3500.00 is said to perform beyond its range. Probably not MSB range, but, it may be more in line with your system.

If the issue you describe began after adding the Rogue you may not solve it with a new DAC. It may be distortions from the amp.
 
If this is of any help ;):

My amplification cost almost $ 30K, and my DAC cost $ 2,399 (for specifics on my components, see signature).

Do I think this makes sense? Hell yeah. The total contributes to a very high resolution system (separation of instruments, timbral micro detail, fine tonal shading).

I would never have achieved this the other way around, cheap amp, expensive DAC.

Having said that, my AES/EBU cable from transport to DAC is almost as expensive as the DAC.
 
Al M. said:
If this is of any help ;):

My amplification cost almost $ 30K, and my DAC cost $ 2,399 (for specifics on my components, see signature).

Do I think this makes sense? Hell yeah. The total contributes to a very high resolution system (separation of instruments, timbral micro detail, fine tonal shading).

I would never have achieved this the other way around, cheap amp, expensive DAC.

Having said that, my AES/EBU cable from transport to DAC is almost as expensive as the DAC.
Click to expand...

This is a great point that I think is overlooked by many. No matter how great or resolving a dac or source is.

If your system doesn’t have the resolving power (amp+speakers). You’ll never hear that resolution or the difference between sources.

I think many get caught up with the Dac flavor of the month but, perhaps even bigger gains could come else where.

In the OPs case perhaps upgrading his Rouge to say a VAC integrated product ( if he likes tubes) then add an MSB dac; Sell the integrated add a stereo power amp and use the MSB pre :-)
 
Thanks for the food for thought folks...

A little background - I am very very happy with my Klipch La Scala IIs - I know I could spend quite a bit more and get into something like Volti Audio or JBL 4367 etc but for now and the foreseeable future I can't see looking at my speakers for an upgrade. I am an ex-touring music guy and the "live" surrounded by instruments on stage is the sound I've been chasing since I got into serious audiophile territory about 4 years ago.

So there are some thoughts out there about allocation of budget (largest percentage of $$ going to speakers, etc) but the way I approach my system is that I got the speakers I want and everything else regardless of price/cost ratio will go into nailing down the sound I'm after.

The 509X is very close to that sound I'm looking for (and I have been very happy with it, and also own several other Luxman vintage components that are awesome) but the last 5% I am missing in the sound is that "surrounded by instruments" ...

So it has been a journey of trying different preamps and DACs etc to try to get there - the closest I've come so far has been the Rogue integrated. I am also quite happy with the Luxman DA-06 DAC, especially with the Innuos Zen MKIII acting as Roon Core/LMS streamer.

Running the 509X as a "preamp" into the Rogue has been the closest I've gotten to capturing the detail, dynamics, and sweetness of the Luxman and the "musicians in the room" feel of tubes, but my thought was that adding something like the MSB or Chord DAVE would either bring that holographic sound to the 509X or bring the detail and sweetness of the 509X to the Rogue...

However it sounds like maybe I should be looking more at the amps - maybe the 509X or the Rogue isn't going to get me where I want and I should be looking at a better foundation rather than the digital side of it.

The only other things I've looked into to this point have been the Luxman solid state separates (900u etc) or the Luxman tube integrated (LX-380). The solid state separates are actually more than I'm willing to spend.

However after doing some research late into the night last night I am VERY intrigued by the Linear Tube Audio ZOTL technology. Looking at either the ZOTL preamp/Ultralinear amp combo or the new LTA Z10 integrated may be closest to the sound I'm looking for. The company is founded by a group of ex-musicians who have engineered (using David Berning's transformerless ZOTL tech) their gear to capture that live "in the room" feel while still retaining an audiophile approach to engineering.

So that may be the next serious path to go down.

Anyone have any experience with the LTA stuff?
 
I know Rogue makes really good stuff but I'd have to think long and hard before replacing a Luxman 509x with a RC II. Didn't say I wouldn't. But I'd also be looking at the NAIM Supernait 3 (not out yet), Moon 340ix or 700i v2, Hegel H590, VAC, Gryphon 120, or some others. OTOH, you're more experienced at this than me. I'm a relative newb at this. But the Rogue CM II seems a pretty long stretch to the 509x. I know the CM II and III punch above their weight. Maybe it's the tubes that have the sound you're searching for? Although I too like a slightly colored sound. Amps that are too analytical often sound sort of sterile, dry, and unexciting to me. But, going strictly on what I've read (I've not heard a 509x), the 509x is very good at finding that happy median between "honest" yet colorful. But, from me, take all this with a grain salt. There are people on this forum that are far more expert than me, especially regarding the 509x.....you, for one.


Tom
 
mdp632 said:
In the OPs case perhaps upgrading his Rouge to say a VAC integrated product ( if he likes tubes) then add an MSB dac; Sell the integrated add a stereo power amp and use the MSB pre :-)
Click to expand...

Preamp stages (i.e. digital volume controls) in DACs often underperform, and from what I have heard, MSB is no exception (unless it's the Select II). The importance of a great analog preamp cannot be overstated, as I found out myself recently. If you don't want to go to the extra length, a high quality integrated may still be your best bet.
 
I have heard both the LTA preamp and amp at a friends/dealers home.
It is VERY clean sounding.
However in my and his opinion it is also very sterile. (he was a concert pianist)
I don't think it would be a good match with your Klipsch, but hey, who knows until you try it.
 
jadedavid said:
I have heard both the LTA preamp and amp at a friends/dealers home.
It is VERY clean sounding.
However in my and his opinion it is also very sterile. (he was a concert pianist)
I don't think it would be a good match with your Klipsch, but hey, who knows until you try it.
Click to expand...

Thanks - this is good to hear. Everything I've heard about the LTA stuff has been raves about the holographic imaging yet with detail that is uncommon in traditional tube tech. However, this is the second opinion I've heard this afternoon that the LTAs swing too far on the "detail/sterile" side and sacrifice a little on the tube warmth and dimension. It is very hard for me to demo any of the ZOTL stuff as I'm 4 hours away from their showroom so I am now less optimistic about this option.

Honestly Rogue Stereo 100 or one of the Rogue RP7 pre's may be the way to go BUT I know the Rogue stuff can be noisy (my CM2 has a hum) and it's kind of a crapshoot about the level of hum you may experience.

The LX-380 tube integrated from Luxman is the last option I'm really curious about without going into $$$$ stratosphere on something like the MQ300. I've read one review on it and know no one who has any experience with it - best case scenario is it's the tube equivalent of the 509X... or it could be no better than the Stereo 100 etc in a sexier box.

I guess for now I put the pin in the new DAC idea and just try to get around somewhere to demo these amp options.

I may actually HAVE the sound I'm looking for now with the 509X and the CM2 combo and just blinded by new gear fever.
 
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