MAGICO M3 - Review
- Thread starter Joe P
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An absolutely wonderful, musically engaging speaker.
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After living with these speakers for a few months now, I can say that i can't conceive of how my system could improve. With my best files (most natural), the output sounds exactly like live music in my room. When it doesn't, it is because of the recording, not the speakers. High end audio has finally arrived at reality.
Eric
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Kippyy
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I have the same question. I replaced Wilson Alexias with the M3's about 10 weeks ago. Based on the great reviews + a great demo in a smaller,more enclosed room than mine(19 x 24 feet +15 foot ceilings), I took the plunge. I love the imaging and the detail, but am having some remorse/concern due to lack of deep bass and visceral impact(both of which I experienced in the demo). These qualities do seem to be improving with time. I don't have room for adding subs as these are in my living room. Perhaps adding a 2nd amplifier might help? Or maybe they simply need more break-in time. Any advice is appreciated.
Barry
Barry
asiufy
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Hi Kippyy,
First, I'd try your Linn directly on the Burmester amp, if you can. Just enable volume control (with the Konfig app). We've had great results driving amps directly with the Klimax...
Second, I think positioning could have something to do with it. I used to have a pair of Q3s, and positioning was crucial in obtaining the best bass!
I understand you have them living room, so I don't know how much space you have to move them about... Perhaps you dealer could be of some help, specially with positioning.
First, I'd try your Linn directly on the Burmester amp, if you can. Just enable volume control (with the Konfig app). We've had great results driving amps directly with the Klimax...
Second, I think positioning could have something to do with it. I used to have a pair of Q3s, and positioning was crucial in obtaining the best bass!
I understand you have them living room, so I don't know how much space you have to move them about... Perhaps you dealer could be of some help, specially with positioning.
- Thread Author
- #7
The back story:
I asked this question because after Cincy2 paid Mr. Smith to voice his room with his new M3s, and he was left with a large suck out in the deep bass, and had to get the REL G1 Mk 2 subwoofers to correct the problem.
Please note that our AS forum owner (Mike) also owned Wilson Alexias, which he sold, but never answered my questions if they were installed by a WA dealer with proper WASP training.
Mike is now a Magico dealer, and paid Mr.Smith to voice the M3s in his new dealership.
In answer to your questions:
I think you have more than enough high quality power to drive the M3s.
10 weeks is more than enough time to break-in a pair of speakers.
It seems that unlike WA, Magico doesn't train their dealers on installation, if they did, they wouldn't need Mr.Smith.
Finally, IMO, a $75K speakers shouldn't need subwoofers.
Kuoppis
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Not sure about your agenda or background, but obviously you have no idea what you are talking about. You are mistaken on so many levels.
Based on my experience, Magicos do need a lots of burn-in time, which affects mostly the bass. It of course depends on how much they are actually played, but I would say up to 6 months
I am on my 2nd pair of Magicos by now and have done it twice.
Further, in a high-end system the main reason for adding subs should not be to get earthquake-level low bass, but to support the mid-range. Anyone who has done that can confirm.
Regarding the bass in general though, Wilsons tend to have a stronger relative bass than Magicos, e.g. due to the front- or back ports. The question however remains which one is more true to the music. Truth is in the eye of the beholder.
Finally, could you please disclose your private audio system and commercial affiliations, so we can see whether you are judging based on unfounded opinions or if you do have actual experience and what kind of commercial agenda you are pursuing?
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Melbguy1
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Firstly I agree with Kuoppis. Magico speakers need up to 500hrs to be mostly run in (ie: 80-90% run in), but will continue to improve for another 200hrs or so. If you're like most folks who work and juggle family, you're probably logging about 30hrs/wk. 700hrs ÷ 30hrs = 23.3, or roughly 6 months as Kuoppis said.
Secondly, if my experience with the Q3 is anything to go by, room setup is critical. So in the first instance I would recommend educating yourself as much as possible about room setup. You need not pay Jim's hefty consulting fee as you can simply buy his book 'Get Better Sound' which is worth its weight in gold. You can also refer to free online resources such as the Cardas Room Setup Guide. If you want to get into some more advanced concepts you can check out 6 moons Introduction to Room Acoustics. With your initial speaker placement, you're just aiming for an approximate location. Bare in mind the sound will change quite a bit over the initial run in period, which in most cases necessitates a change in speaker position. Personally i'm keeping my S5 Mk2's on the factory coasters until about 400hrs, before dialing in a final setup and spiking my speakers.
Finally, although the M3's are moderately efficient @91db into a 4 ohm load, Magico speakers need plenty of power to properly control them. I don't quite agree with Jap's summary of your Burmester 911 Mk3. That amp has a fairly small 700va transformer with 130,000uF total capacitance & weights 31kg (which is mostly the transformer). By comparison my Vitus SIA-025 has a very efficient 1.4kVa transformer with 144,000uF total capacitance & weighs 42kg. By "very efficient", I mean it sounds like a big 2kVa tranny. A more powerful amp would certainly help give you that last bit of bass depth and control. However I wouldn't put the cart before the horse by considering an amp upgrade just yet. Let your speakers run in, then experiment with speaker positioning. And if you're still not getting enough bass depth and slam, then it's time to consider an amp upgrade.
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I should finally have my M3s next week, so I will let you guys know how they do in my 14x19 room. My S5s had all the bass I could ever ask for ... and more.
The M3, although very expensive, are definately not a speaker for a very big rooms. They just do not have the woofer size needed. For that, you have the M-Pros (or the upcoming M5s, or whatever they will be called). As an alternative, you may always use subs. There are people who use subs even with Wilsons Alexandrias.
The M3, although very expensive, are definately not a speaker for a very big rooms. They just do not have the woofer size needed. For that, you have the M-Pros (or the upcoming M5s, or whatever they will be called). As an alternative, you may always use subs. There are people who use subs even with Wilsons Alexandrias.
My room is 17' X 35' X 11'. I have the M3's running with either Vitus SM011s or SM102s. I also have a pair of REL212SE's available to use if I want to.
The M3's sound great with the REL's. It is more about the depth of the soundstage and the more complete, full bodied sounding midrange than lower or more visceral bass that the REL's bring to the party in my room.
I very seldom use the REL's with the M3's even though they are available as I love what the M3's sound like by themselves with the Vitus amps. The bass is one of the strongest attributes. YMMV as all of this has so much to do with personal preference, what type of music you listen to, the volume you listen at etc.
Bass is room dependent and you have to work with the placement of the M3's to get the bass right, and you MUST get the bass right in order for the M3's to produce their overall magic.
Understood if it's your living room and you only have so many placement options, BUT in my opinion I would do two things after the M3's had at least 500 hours of playing time on them.
1) Play around with the placement as much as possible sometimes a few inches can change everything. If you provide a pic of your current set up either here or pm me I would give an estimated guess at the situation or might have some suggestions. You will get many other suggestions as well if you post the pic here on the forum, but if you don't want to do that just send me a pm.
2) Figure out how to try a different amp(s) on the M3's to see if the Burmester is just not giving the M3's what they want to produce the best bass that they are capable of.
Of course you can also get a pair of subs and see what they do as well, BUT I believe that with optimized placement and the right amps the M3's can produce magical results without subs. Of course if your room happens to have a low bass suck out just because of the room dimensions then subs might solve the problem, but I would not assume anything until I experimented with placement and other amp(s) if possible.
Great question Jap. I could have but the addition of the subs enhanced the sound in ways I couldn't imagine. I had Jim Smith voice my room. He showed me graphically how the room itself was limiting the low bass I heard by virtue of its geometry. I couldn't get enough volume n the bass below 35Hz unless we screwed up the even response of the rest of the spectrum. Not the speaker's fault. With the Rel G1's adding that energy between 20 and 35Hz, I noticed that much more than just the low electric bass improved. Kick drums, other percussive instruments had a weight and naturalness I had never heard before. For some craziness I don't understand, the overall imaging was sharper. I don't think they are absolutely necessary but now that I've lived with the total package, I would say if your room limits your bass, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Eric
jap - you seem very interested in my old Wilson Alexia story. Well, I have moved on from that nightmare and have forgotten it. But for your edification, here is a synopsis: I started my Alexia purchasing journey at my local dealers (the only Florida Wilson dealer at the time). Right from the beginning, it was an absolute nightmare to deal with them and at the 11th hour it was clear things were not going to get better. With the help of Debby Wilson, someone I consider a friend, I moved to an out of state dealer for my purchase. Although not focused on two channel audio, they were wonderful to deal with. Phone calls were returned. Questions were answered promptly. Color samples supplied. etc. I'm happy to report those other bad actors are gone.
The out of state dealer was not versed in the Alexia's and was far more skilled at installing video projectors, screens and surround sound processors than Alexia's according to "WASP". As for setup, yes he helped as best he could. When I mentioned some concerns about the sound, he helped me swap out the resistors But as for strictly following WASP, I was basically handed a print out with the instructions (see link below). I followed those instructions multiple times. I would liken "WASP" as compared to what Jim Smith does (with his two suitcases full of equipment) as something like comparing a bag of plain macaroni that you warm up in the microwave to a steak and lobster dinner at a fine restaurant. So your premise that Magico not having some acronym training program for their dealers places them at a disadvantage is incorrect. WASP is nothing more than a starting point approach which tries to find the spot in the room where reflection is at a minimum or as Wilson calls it, the Zone of Neutrality. I cannot speak for other dealers, but frankly, this is nothing more than basic speaker setup. It's akin to reading a book on driving a car and then thinking you can. It's a starting point. Nothing more. One only need look at what is missing from WASP to realize it's just a starting point. As Jim as mentioned, he has voiced many many previously "WASP"ed systems.
For those interested in reading more on "WASP", refer to page 9: https://www.wilsonaudio.com/pdf/manuals/manual-sasha-wp.pdf
I hold no bad will or animosity toward Wilson Audio from my experience, in fact, quite the opposite. Wilson Audio and Debby in particular, tried very hard to make a bad situation (initially) as positive as possible in the end. But at the end of the day, the speakers didn't work out for me and I moved on.
As for the subs, the M3's work beautifully in my 18 1/2 x 25 room without subs. I find that subs are more about what they bring to midrange clarity than "thump, thump, thump" bass. In fact jap, you will note that Wilson Audio often uses Thors Hammer subs to achieve optimal results with their XLF's. Jock (the Professor) is using dual Magico Q-Sub 15's with his Raidho D5's in a SMALL room.
Therefore, subs should not be though of as a weakness in a speakers, but rather a compliment to a full range speaker to bring out the best in it's midrange.
BlueFox
New member
Not to sidetrack the thread, but how does one use subs with the M3, or S5 MKII? Is it one sub, or two; one for each speaker? How are they hooked up? My amps have two sets of speaker posts, so would they attach to each amp? I assume the subs have filters built in so you can adjust where they cut off, or do you need an external X-over? Do you place the sub next to the speaker? How critical is the sub placement?
http://www.audioshark.org/magico-61/integration-sub-woofers-magico-m3s-10979.html
BlueFox
Described in this thread.
Eric
BlueFox
Described in this thread.
Eric
metaphacts
New member
Mike I'm sorry you had the experience that you did. I'm glad you have moved on and are able to enjoy your music again.
WASP is far more than a starting point. The Zones of Neutrality are just the beginning part of assessing a room for placement. (Most of the link you reference describes ways to understand how your room can interact with the speaker and the listener.) What occurs after that is when the hard and very detailed work begins. That why we insist that the dealer set up every new (and soon every current Certified Authentic Pre-Owned) Wilson speaker.
BTW, I'm typing this on a break from our second group of 8 Wilson dealers in Provo this week for WASP training.
Bill, I'm sure with you now involved, things will vastly improve.
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BlueFox
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Thanks. Perfect thread.
Kuoppis
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Hi Barry, to come back to your original question, while there is burn-in, placement and room acoustics, there is also system match. I think some systems just play better together.
As described by Melbguy, Magicos are current hungry. Hence, while your Burmester is a nice amp, it might not be the best possible pairing with your M3s. Very good results have been achieved with Solution and Vitus, and there are also some happy Pass and Ayre owners with Magicos. Depends a little on what you like.
All in all, I think you can call yourself the owner of currently one of the best standmounters money can buy. So I would be surprised if you would not be able to find a setup to your liking.