Is it worth it?

M

MusicDirector

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Ok, I’m a bit concerned. I’m feeling that I may have wasted a lot of hard-earned money in the supposed upgrade of my main system. I’m trying to figure out if getting a new receiver and possibly supplemental amp I’m trying to save up for, will be a further waste or not.
The points of contention are:
Phonomena II phonostage “upgrade “ from a TCL-750. Now by most accounts that turned out to be a lateral move at best as I am told that a decent phono stage cost a minimum of $1600. Even the guy that sold it to me said that the Phonomena is built extremely well and all the money and quality were spent on the components and design inside (instead of fancy paint and lights), which is why the outside is just a simple metal box really and it’s as good as it gets for the money, but if you really want to upgrade you need to spend at least $1600 on a phono stage). (What I don’t understand is that the thing works far better than my $50 TCL-750 at least to my ears, unless I’m really missing something. Plus the thing has a 5 year warranty).
Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge – come to find out that it may not work on a Denon DP47-f and according to Ortofon I should have gotten a 2M Blue. (I don’t really call this an upgrade, but almost anything beats a ShureM97xE cart).
VPI 16.5 RCM & AVIS fluids – This was a good move until starting about 3 months ago when I started getting told that a “real” RCM will run me $4000. (Then what’s the VPI 16.5?) I’m now told that my fully studied and proven method of cleaning records is no good and that I could not possibly be getting them clean. (Is there such a level as “quieter than a CD”?) It's come to my realization a while ago that an RCM is a platform for cleaning, not a action cleaner except the vacuum part.
I thought all these were upgrades or good moves, but now I see that they were not, I think. So that is a total of about $1700 wasted. That's a hell of a lot of money to waste, not to mention the energy and time it took to obtain things. Not only does it take me some time to save up, but the research and study I do before buying would almost kill most people, figuratively speaking of course. By the time I am done and ready to make the purchase or have made it, I sometimes get physically sick because I’ve spent energy beyond my capacity. That happened with the Paradigms, VPI and Ortofon.
So now here I am trying to save up for a new Receiver and maybe supplement amp which will be uber expensive to me. So it will take some time. (Like it was with my Paradigms).
I don’t know if I should bother replacing my Onkyo with what I think will be an “upgrade”. I’m questioning if it’s the right move, worth it and if it’s really an upgrade or a lateral move. I’m looking at a few receivers and leaning towards a Marantz, but I have more research and study to do before deciding on one. There is also quite a bit more saving up to do and I am less than a third there yet. I have not looked at Amps yet because I may not need one, but I want to be ready if I do. That said, I don’t want to expend all that energy if getting a new receiver/ampi s not an upgrade or worth doing.
 
Eric, let me try to address your issues one at a time. The Phonomena is a significant upgrade from the TC-750 and for most people it is all they will ever need unless they just have money they want to spend to experiment. I have owned a TC-750 and found that the $30 ART was a far better Phono Pre. You would in fact probably have to spend four times that amount to do better. For less than that you could do different, but probably not better. As to the Bronze, Ortofon's advise makes no sense as the Bronze is a higher compliance cartridge and you have a lower mass arm. Were they to tell you the truth you would be better off with either the OM-30 or OM-40 which are both higher compliance than the Bronze, as well as being cheaper. Plus to my ears the OM series are better sounding cartridges. I use the same VPI and fluids as you and I think they do a fine job. If I was cleaning a lot more albums or doing it professionally for resale, the higher priced machines might be warranted, not for cleaning but for durability. But for the "average Joe" with normal income who is cleaning for personal use the 16.5 or the Okki Nokki do a very good job with both in the $600 range. As to the "receiver upgrade" is there some reason that you want to buy a receiver instead of an integrated or separate amp and preamp. Either of these options would give you better sound as they have less functions to worry about for the price point. You could buy a brand new preamp and amp from Emotiva for example for probably less than a top flight receiver. In the Marantz lineup their x004 Integrated Amps seem to get good marks and supposedly have a more than decent phono stage built in that would be a back-up.
 
Jack said:
Eric, let me try to address your issues one at a time. The Phonomena is a significant upgrade from the TC-750 and for most people it is all they will ever need unless they just have money they want to spend to experiment. I have owned a TC-750 and found that the $30 ART was a far better Phono Pre. You would in fact probably have to spend four times that amount to do better. For less than that you could do different, but probably not better. As to the Bronze, Ortofon's advise makes no sense as the Bronze is a higher compliance cartridge and you have a lower mass arm. Were they to tell you the truth you would be better off with either the OM-30 or OM-40 which are both higher compliance than the Bronze, as well as being cheaper. Plus to my ears the OM series are better sounding cartridges. I use the same VPI and fluids as you and I think they do a fine job. If I was cleaning a lot more albums or doing it professionally for resale, the higher priced machines might be warranted, not for cleaning but for durability. But for the "average Joe" with normal income who is cleaning for personal use the 16.5 or the Okki Nokki do a very good job with both in the $600 range. As to the "receiver upgrade" is there some reason that you want to buy a receiver instead of an integrated or separate amp and preamp. Either of these options would give you better sound as they have less functions to worry about for the price point. You could buy a brand new preamp and amp from Emotiva for example for probably less than a top flight receiver. In the Marantz lineup their x004 Integrated Amps seem to get good marks and supposedly have a more than decent phono stage built in that would be a back-up.
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I used my TC-L750 to digitize my vinyl on my vintage rig and it was fine. However, when I plugged it into my daily driver rig if you will, it crashed. This is due to the cart and turn table capacitance. So the $50 phono preamp is limited in use. The Phonomena, I find it good to my ears, but not qualified for great I guess. Then again, I do not know what those qualifications are. I don't see how a $1600+ phono stage is any better with the exception of the Monk one reviewed earlier with the controls in front. Of course, I have no idea how it sounds.
The OM-30 and on would not fit on my Denon if I wanted them to. There is some question of the 2M series fitting,but I have heard of people mounting them successfully on the Denon DP47-f. I may be giving that a whirl in a week or so.
The VPI 16.5 is actually durable in the sense that any of the parts are easily available should repairs be needed and VPI even states that the user can do the repairs. Try that with a $4000 RCM. I do agree and always have that if I were professionally reselling LPs or had a collection of 1000 or something, then a automated $4k RCM would be on my list of things to consider obtaining.
Since I use my daily driver system for the occasional movie watching or what not and currently run a 5.0 setup, it would be rather difficult and extremely expensive to go separates. (That's not to say I have not seriously thought about it or would like to someday). While I mostly listen to music, I do need to consider the occasional use of some kind of surround and what have you when I want to or need it.
Emotiva has the right idea to try make things affordable and all,but sadly, there are issues with much of their gear (especially the preamps)that still need to be worked out.
I just don't know if getting a new different top shelf receiver and possibly a supplemental amp is a move up that will complete the upgrade of the system or a sideways move and waste. I'm starting to lean towards it not being worth it.
 
A good option may be an integrated amp with home theater bypass. If your existing receiver has pre-outs for the main channels you could use the bypass and power your main speakers with the integrated's superior amp (the existing receiver will still control volume, channel balance, and power the remaining channels). When you want listen to 2-channel audio, you use only the integrated for better sound quality. There are a number of options available including those from BelCanto and Wyred4Sound. I have used this set-up with a BelCanto for the past 5 years with good results.
 
Eric, don't know why you think the OM series won't fit your TT as they have been around for decades and have been OEM cartridges for hundreds of models of TT's with low mass straight arms from the time period your TT was built in. . I have one and have never found a tonearm it wouldn't mount to, especially a low mass one. One the other hand the 2M series is heavy and lower compliance. If you look at the shape you will see why it was developed. It mimics the headshell portion of the Rega, Project and Music Hall TT's. That was their target market for that line of cartridges. As for your reading on Emotiva gear, from my experience all of it is excellent. Well built and fairly priced with a five year warranty. The only issues I am aware of them having is with the programming of some of the DSP modes on their HT processors, but they kept working and got the bugs out eventually. If your current receiver has analog outputs, then just buy an Emotiva five channel amp and be done if you like the rest of the features on you current receiver. XPA-5 | 200W x 5 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifier
 
Jack said:
Eric, don't know why you think the OM series won't fit your TT as they have been around for decades and have been OEM cartridges for hundreds of models of TT's with low mass straight arms from the time period your TT was built in. . I have one and have never found a tonearm it wouldn't mount to, especially a low mass one. One the other hand the 2M series is heavy and lower compliance. If you look at the shape you will see why it was developed. It mimics the headshell portion of the Rega, Project and Music Hall TT's. That was their target market for that line of cartridges. As for your reading on Emotiva gear, from my experience all of it is excellent. Well built and fairly priced with a five year warranty. The only issues I am aware of them having is with the programming of some of the DSP modes on their HT processors, but they kept working and got the bugs out eventually. If your current receiver has analog outputs, then just buy an Emotiva five channel amp and be done if you like the rest of the features on you current receiver. XPA-5 | 200W x 5 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifier
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I thought those OM carts were the big DJ type carts, maybe I'm thinking of a different one? There is nothing wrong with the Emotive gear in and of itself except that it's made in China and Emotive doesn't have complete control over parts used there or how they are built to a degree. Yes, the gear is all developed in the US and the folks at Emotiva are fine folks indeed, I've met a few of them. The 5-year warranty is a plus. However, once the specsand such are in the hands of the Chinese corporations that do the build, it gets murky. What generally happens is that the Chinese corporation will use cheaper parts and may cut a corner or two so they increases their profits when they sell back to us. This was part of the problem behind the bugs in their preamps. Sadly, while Emotiva is trying to make things more available to those of us who have almost no disposable income and what not, if they were to have them built in the US or Germany or what have you they would have to charge a lot more.
I'm trying to steer away from Chinese audio stuff as much as I can after having a ton of it over time. I still like Emotiva, I just don't trust Chinese product. My system now almost has nothing from China, it just kind of ended up like that, unplanned.
My current receiver has analog outputs and I like the features it has, but it is showing age (unlike early 70s receivers that get better with age like fine wine and give 20 more years life with an overhaul) and I'd kind of like to network the system. The proprietary remote has failed for my current receiver and it was highly useful as it made set up easy and such. I'm now using a Harmony universal remote, but it's harder to change modes and such. The receiver is also loud since I had to mount extra exhaust fans to it for heat reduction. (Onkyo is known for heat issues). Also, the new top shelf receivers offer better updated room correction of sorts. (It's not full blown room correction, but better than nothing or rebuilding a room especially if one is in a rental situation). My Paradigms being fairly adaptive would work well with a stronger setup program too. Finally, I'm trying to drive the Paradigms with less than 100WPC on the Onkyo. Yes, a supplemental amp would solve that issue,but not the rest of it.
I was just worried about my downstream so-called "upgrades" I've done. In further looking and listening to my ears, I have found that with the exception of the Phenomona 2, I'm in good shape and have or am experiencing easily noticeable improvement.
From Onkyo CD player to Marantz CD5004 = marked sound improvement without having to imagine it or convince myself. It is just there.
Addition of Squeezebox Touch = gives more abilities and better dac than my Onkyo Receiver
TCL-750 Phono Stage to Phonomena 2 Phono stage = it works, which is more than I can say for the TCL-750 in this case (The TCL works fine in my vintage system, but I don't need it except for digitizing). The phono stage on the Onkyo is not good.
Sony Linear Tracker to Denon DP47-f = It's a turntable which is more than I can say the Sony was.
So maybe I'm alright.
It is rough, but it would also be the last thing I buy in audio gear at least for many many years if not forever.
 
Davkj said:
A good option may be an integrated amp with home theater bypass. If your existing receiver has pre-outs for the main channels you could use the bypass and power your main speakers with the integrated's superior amp (the existing receiver will still control volume, channel balance, and power the remaining channels). When you want listen to 2-channel audio, you use only the integrated for better sound quality. There are a number of options available including those from BelCanto and Wyred4Sound. I have used this set-up with a BelCanto for the past 5 years with good results.
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Yes, this is my original plan, but with a new better quality receiver.
 
The DJ cartridge was the Concorde. Similar shape but an integrated S-Shape tone arm headshell solution. Will also take the OM hi-fi styli. As to the receivers, it appears that the best of the amplifier sections are in the Pioneer Elite and the Anthem units though they are pricey.
 
Jack said:
The DJ cartridge was the Concorde. Similar shape but an integrated S-Shape tone arm headshell solution. Will also take the OM hi-fi styli. As to the receivers, it appears that the best of the amplifier sections are in the Pioneer Elite and the Anthem units though they are pricey.
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Ah, yes, now I recall, that was it. (the concorde). I'm going to have a looksee at the OMs. I'm not impressed with the Anthems for some reason. I don't know why. Depending on if I get a new receiver and which one, I may end up with an Emotiva amp anyway. I'm just trying to avoid another Onkyo situation.
 
Eric, there a couple of guys on AK running that TT with the Bronze and they seem to like the combo. That series is just too "forward" for my taste while the OM series is more "neutral". So it kinds of depends on the flavor you like.
 
Jack said:
Eric, there a couple of guys on AK running that TT with the Bronze and they seem to like the combo. That series is just too "forward" for my taste while the OM series is more "neutral". So it kinds of depends on the flavor you like.
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I'm currently running a Shure M97xE that is too laid back for my taste. I don't like it too forward either (most MC carts sound too forward to me). I understand that the Ortofon 2M Bronze will sound very forward at first, but it's supposed to calm down after break in. Of course, "forward", "laid back" etc. is all relative to the listener. So the only way to know is to mount and listen. I may like the more neutral sound of an OM or what have you. I'll see if I can get around to getting one to try out. ~Eric
 
Your right of course, relative to the listener's taste and also to a great extent the speaker's at the end of the chain Specifically the crossover design and the tweeter type and material.
 
Jack said:
Your right of course, relative to the listener's taste and also to a great extent the speaker's at the end of the chain Specifically the crossover design and the tweeter type and material.
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True. I don't pay attention to cross-overs because to me a crossover is a crossover it does one function. I'm not saying there are not differences of course, just to me personally, it's too much to worry about on top of everything else I worry about. I am familiar with tweeter material and type and the Paradigms do have a bit of a harsh material to some folks. To me, they started out just a little bit harsh (nothing ear fatiguing or damaging to me), but calmed down after a time and now sound very detailed. I've heard much worse. Again though, it's all about a persons frequency sensitivities. Just part of our DNA.
 
In taking a re-look at the OM cart series, I want one. I recall now wanting one before I got the 2M Bronze, but my dealer chatted me out of the OM for the 2M Bronze! Why? Is it because the OM series is affordable (well except the Super OM20+ is a little pricey, but just about the limit I would want to spend on a cart again if I had a do-over), even to my ilk and just as good, but not uber expensive like the Bronze? I would think it's because of bigger differences I would hope. I know folks really like the Bronze, Black and the Red as well, so..... It seems to me the two are made similar except for the stylus mount, I'm not sure though with my limited understanding of carts. Which OM should I get? OM3E, OM5E, Super OM10, 20 or 30? Or are the Supers the stylus and not carts? If that's the case, which cart should I get. OM3E or OM5E? ~Eric
 
Eric, I suspect the reason they push the 2M's is that is what gets the most publicity and is what Ortofon wants them to push. May also have a better mark-up per unit. Probably the reason the Red is the typical throw-in upgrade cartridge for every below $600 TT. The highest model I own is an OM 10, but according to the OM series "faithful" the sweet spot in the lineup is the OM 30. The 40 is quite a bit of a price jump without an equal jump in improvement. This is the best price I know unless your Bronze is unopened and you can get the dealer to swap you back for the OM. If so the equal price swap would be the OM 40. Ortofon Super OM 30 Steve is a good dealer and has very fast and free shipping from Nevada.
 
Jack said:
Eric, I suspect the reason they push the 2M's is that is what gets the most publicity and is what Ortofon wants them to push. May also have a better mark-up per unit. Probably the reason the Red is the typical throw-in upgrade cartridge for every below $600 TT. The highest model I own is an OM 10, but according to the OM series "faithful" the sweet spot in the lineup is the OM 30. The 40 is quite a bit of a price jump without an equal jump in improvement. This is the best price I know unless your Bronze is unopened and you can get the dealer to swap you back for the OM. If so the equal price swap would be the OM 40. Ortofon Super OM 30 Steve is a good dealer and has very fast and free shipping from Nevada.
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That sounds most likely. My Bronze is new,but I'm going to keep it since: 1) Dealer will not swap out or take it back. 2) It cost a ton of money ($400 is a ton of money in my book). If I don't like it on the Denon I can mount it to my Pioneer PL510 and see how it does there.
In the meantime I may pickup an Ortofon OM 5E to try. Later I can get a OM20 stylus for it or a 30 depending on price. That difference of the 30 and 40 is the same throughout cart manufactures and model lines. Same thing hols for the 2M bronze and 2M Black, the jump in price does not come with equal improvement. I'm suspecting the same between the Blue and the Bronze. On the flip side, there is a nice jump in improvement between the Red and the Bronze.
 
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