Integration of sub woofers with Magico M3s

Cincy2

Cincy2

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I wanted to start this thread to keep a running commentary on the integration of a pair of REL G1 Mk2 sub woofers I have purchased to integrate with my M3's. I don't want to turn the thread into a discussion on the merit of subs or why they are needed with mega buck speakers. The discussion of the process will likely be beneficial to many Sharks who have considered doing the same thing. First post: Very informative background reading from Jim Smith.

http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwoofery-trick-or-treat/

http://www.psaudio.com/article/38363/

http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwoofery-the-finale/


I've downloaded the RTA app for my iPad and have a small microphone on the way. This should be fun

More to come.

Eric
 
Mike said:
Eric - Good thread idea. I ordered a pair of REL G1 mk2's yesterday for the M3's (I blame you :) ). Yes, yes, yes, I would have loved the Q-Sub 15's...but I can't swing it right now. Next year for sure.

I also have the XTZ Room Analyzer that you're more than welcome to borrow: http://www.xtzsound.com/product/room-analyzer-ii-pro
b
Mike
Click to expand...

I will second Mike's recommendation for the XTZ Pro. It is not expensive and a great tool for room analysis and subwoofer integration. I have used it several times with great results.
 
CGabriel said:
I will second Mike's recommendation for the XTZ Pro. It is not expensive and a great tool for room analysis and subwoofer integration. I have used it several times with great results.
Click to expand...

Are their good directions as to how to get most our of the XTZ Pro?
 
Not to take anything away from Jim Smith recommendation, but not all subs are created equal. Magico sub “pitch” is its enclosure, which, according to them is completely inert (I never heard it). Most subs pollute the midrange due to enclosures flex, which will introduce high level of distortion. Good integration is not enough if your sub enclosure is “doubling” the frq they suppose to reproduce, and introduce distortion way above their cutoff point (That I did hear the many times I tried, unsuccessful, to integrate a sub). This can easily be measured, just put a 20 Hz tone via the sub and look at your frq response, or listen, ideialy, you should not hear anything, but you will typically hear higher frqs generated as well, although at much lower spl, but enough to mess with the overall sound.
 
Apparently only comments from members who own subs are welcome in this thread. Post removed.
 
Eric, look forward to your real world findings & some updates as you realise the day to day experiences. This will be a great read for those that haven't lived & voiced their system with subs.
 
LVB said:
Not to take anything away from Jim Smith recommendation, but not all subs are created equal. Magico sub “pitch” is its enclosure, which, according to them is completely inert (I never heard it). Most subs pollute the midrange due to enclosures flex, which will introduce high level of distortion. Good integration is not enough if your sub enclosure is “doubling” the frq they suppose to reproduce, and introduce distortion way above their cutoff point (That I did hear the many times I tried, unsuccessful, to integrate a sub). This can easily be measured, just put a 20 Hz tone via the sub and look at your frq response, or listen, ideialy, you should not hear anything, but you will typically hear higher frqs generated as well, although at much lower spl, but enough to mess with the overall sound.
Click to expand...

The biggest problem with subs is room nodes, not cabinet flex's. At the level we are talking, the subs are excellent. The Q-Subs are the epitome of sub perfection, but REL's are excellent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The problem with bass isn't that there's not enough of it; it's that what your speakers are capable of producing never reaches you. Bass perception is a function of air velocity, air pressure and phase. Generally speaking adding a sub woofer or three doesn't fix that problem. Adding a SonoruS audio proximity bass control system fixes the problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
still-one said:
Are their good directions as to how to get most our of the XTZ Pro?
Click to expand...

Yes, the manual is pretty good. However it is not an end all be all dissertation on the issues of room acoustics and speaker setup. Understand that I have a lot of test equipment, some of it expensive (Audio Precision Audio Analyzer and several spectrum analyzers) but the XTZ, which is relatively inexpensive is very useful especially when it comes to subwoofer integration. Quite frankly after using such a measurement device I couldn't imagine trying to do it "by ear" again. Without some form of test equipment it is really a crap shoot.

Most useful is the time alignment function. It will tell you exactly how far forward or back of your main speakers to place the subwoofer(s). And then the ability to overlap the main speakers frequency response with the subs frequency response. It allows you to easily see lobing patterns and to see cancellations caused by missetting the sub controls or positioning.

Once you have the subs setup with accurate measurements you can do minor level adjustments by ear to fine tune the integration. I think just about anyone that has a moderate level of knowledge and the time to learn can do this themselves.
 
Just as an aside: Once when setting up some speakers and a sub we found a severe frequency cancellation in the main speakers frequency response. The cancellation was exactly at the crossover point for the speaker. Further investigation revealed that the tweeter had been wired out of phase.
 
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Mike from Suncoast Audio was nice enough to deliver my REL G1Mk2 subwoofers this week. The intent was to place them roughly in position then wait to do the very detailed set up that Jim Smith recommended. I just didn't have the will power to stay out of the sweet spot. We wired them up, used 35Hz as the cut-off and used the little remotes to bring the volume up to the level just before they became noticeable.

I read all the posts about how a sub helps with the sound staging of all the music you play. I listened politely but I'm not sure I believed it. I believe it now. The term "holographic" is now one I am very familiar with. This was not a subtle change. It was jaw dropping in my room where we already had incredible sound staging. I love acoustic jazz so we ran through some of my Mapleshade tracks which are the best examples of proper recording technique I have. The performers were clearly suspended in space in a way I have not experienced before. The other effect i noticed which is probably more traditional was the sound of kick drums. The just sounded right with more weight. My wife hasn't seen a lot of me this week for obvious reasons.

Next Up: Aurender W20. I have been having a lot of software issues with my Mac Mini and Audirvana. The W20 (described to me by my favorite Crack dealer Mike) gets me out of the mess. I'm also looking forward to not hearing the Mini's fan. The W20 is passively cooled.

I'm now a believer in the ability of a good sub to augment the capability of even a speaker as great as the M3's. Maybe someday I'll get around to doing the detailed set up with an RTA but right now I can't stop listening to the music. Thanks again to Mike for the personal service and help.

Eric
 

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I'm not sure you need Aurender W-20 anymore with dCS. After they introduced the Roon Ready feature in their Vivaldi upsampler, I think there is no reason to buy the W-20 anymore (to be used with the Vivaldi stack). A friend of mine - Vivaldi stack owner - just sold his W-20 for this very reason.

The sound quality is comparable, Roon wins on features and ease of use, and is basicly free. All you need is a yearly subscribtion program ($99) and a computer on the same local network (may be even in a basement or another room) to run the Roon. That's it. iPad is needed for both.
 
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