Ctsooner
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I was answering a question that's at the bottom of my answer (a long storybook answer, sorry).
Guys, I'm no different than any of us. I don't work in the industry, but I happen to know many folks as I've been around forever. Even Peter (McKay of Magico) knew who I was once he saw me at the store (really nice guy who's above board. Like other manufacturer's he's a sale guy though first and foremost as he should be). He, like any other manuf. will take the best of their product and point it out. He's very very good at it.
When Wilson and Vandersteen started out, David was the better marketer, but Richard was the better designer (some disagree, but probably have never done an A/B of the two speakers as the Wilson's just don't have any micro or macro detail. David was able to get IN with the reviewers in a way that Richard didn't. Richard is a teddy bear who loves music and helping other love it, but he also is a big guy with a deep voice and opinionated. Just polar opposites. To me the proof is that Richard invented the 2's and made history, but David was able to do more seminars and he went after the higher end with the my dynamic speakers other than horns that were out on the market. He told folks what to listen for and how to listen and they did. I don't know anyone who thinks the Watt/Puppys were musical or natural sounding. I knew many who bought into them, but eventually got rid of them as they sounded so great and exciting in the store, but they grew tired of them quickly. Even dealers I knew who sold them never had them home as they weren't musical.
Before I get completely skewered about these thoughts, they are mine, yes, but also a compilation of many dealers and manufacturer's I know, including a few who used work at Wilson. The reason for this little story is that is shows that marketing is the MOST important thing to manufacturer's as it gets folks into the store. I spoke with three dealers I know this week about how they show components. Do they sell on what the highest markup is? Do they sell what they like the best? Do they sell what folks come in to listen to without really 'pushing' them to listen to a few other products or do they sell folks the product they came into the store to buy?
One said that he sells folks what they came into buy, one said that he basically makes folks listen to two or three choices before they make up their mind. My personal view is that we all have different ways to purchase, but we all go crazy trying to get the best of the best. We spend, spend, spend. We stay up all night long mentally masturbating components, electrical, digital cables for crying out loud. We are on forums and listening to everyone but ourselves? We read a review or ad and believe what we are told. We all do this don't we? If folks are honest with themselves, do they really audition other speakers (because this happens to be a speaker thread, but substitute other components) or do they believe the hype and pricing and buy the most expensive ones that have a sexy look etc..?
All designer's are trying to make what they feel are the best speakers, but they all have different ways to do it. There really are laws of physics, lol. There are also price points. Does that mean a designer can't punch way above their head? NO.
Will folks open up their minds even if it means they aren't spending the most? I highly doubt it as we've been told differently. I NEVER liked Vandersteen speakers. Not at all. My former three favorite dealers all actually carried the line and did quite well with it (as many came into their stores to buy a pair of 2's because they heard all about them (and probably never listened to anything else). None of them ever had them set up correctly and liked other speakers better (Wilson, Proac and B&W's). I couldn't afford the Wilsons and didn't like how they sounded as they were just dynamic boom boxes that made my ears hurt. I didn't warm up to the B&W"s either and again, they were more than I wanted to spend back then. I went to a dealer in Providence RI (no longer in business, but the owner and I stay in touch) to purchase the Vandersteen's (1990's) and the rest of a system that would go with them, but he had a pair of Proacs he wanted to move that were listed for three times the Vandy's, but were sold as demo's for only 800 or so more. I walked out of there that day with Proac Superpowers that were hotrodded with internal MIT wire. They had a huge sound stage and were pretty dynamic. I was impressed IN THE STORE. Kind of like purchasing the brightest TV in Best Buy because it's the brightest so it stands out. I NEVER listened to the Vandersteen that day to be honest. My wife at the time didn't either and she thought the Proac tower in teak was really pretty. I lived with that set up (Quicksilver amps and preamp that always were internal wired with MIT wire along with a custom made MIT cable with MH770 wire (the wire they used for Spectral gear and still is their best wire they use today). The system sounded great for the most part and I owned it until a few years ago. I wanted to get a better system as the material advances were dramatic over the last 15 years or so. I wanted to buy a system and not a component. I went to the closest Proac dealer that Richard sent me to (Richard as the former long time distributor of Proac and helpful to me, even though most hated him. He even sold me a full set of new drivers for the Superpowers after their foam surrounds rotted out, so my speakers were way warmer and nicer than the original Towers, but still not musical per say). Oh, I also had two pair of Studio 100'as by that point that also needed new drivers. I decided to sell off everything. I still have a few pieces to sell, but I invested in a new system.
I went to Audio Connections in NJ (2.5 hour drive) to get a new pair of Proac's. If Johnny was like other dealers, I would have walked out of there with a new pair of speaker's that I still didn't love. He basically forced me to listen to a pair of Treo's he had in the store. They are set up nicely, but the room was the worst sounding room you could have. My dad, brother and I were all shocked at what we heard. I originally told him I didn't want to listen as I never liked Vandy's. Of course I didn't because they were never set up properly. I'm SOOOO glad that I listened. I didn't walk out with new speakers though.
Johnny opened my ears and I told him that I needed to sell gear first and that I needed to really go audition. Yes, I'm THAT guy. I travel a lot and I have a ton of friends. I decided to go audition everything I could. I spent a ton of time in many shops all over the country and I gave everything a real listen. I didn't like most of what I was hearing. It just didn't pull me in. When I auditioned, dealers would constantly talk to me to tell me what I was supposed to be hearing. They wouldn't listen to the music, but they told me how great this was or that was or what the cabinet material is or that they can't tell me what it is, because it's a big secret. I asked specific questions about how much new drivers would cost and what the surrounds were made of (didn't want to have to re cone or re surround them ever). I loved the dealers that would play one pair of speakers at a bit higher volume than the other (there is a reason for loudness matching). The dealers that used the remote control to control volume DURING the song to compensate for a speaker that has lesser dynamics than another one.
I hated dealers who wouldn't let me listen at very low volumes to see if a speaker collapses or loses all dynamics at Sunday morning listening levels. There are so many tricks in audio and most of us fall for them at least some of the time. I made a commitment to myself that I wanted the best components I could afford at the time and also be able to grow in the near future as I knew I could afford more over time. I wanted a true system that worked best together. I also realized that if I went on reviews, many of the components wouldn't sound good together. That's why I like the rest of the world's view of active or semi active speakers. If I have to 'tune' a system with cable, then I don't feel it's well engineered. Cables all do sound differently, but I have found over time that one main stream brand is the most neutral. It won't sound great with all systems and that's probably because many components aren't as musically truthful as others. To me, that's a pretty simple concept. (yes, we all can still hear differently and I never try to push friends into things that I like, but I do always try to make sure they listen to more than just one or two choices. This is why a dealer like Mike and others offer choices.).
Sorry for the diatribe, but with the MS, I'm no longer a great communicator and in writing I come off as brash, opinionated and a jerk at times. For those who get to know me, they disagree with that assessment. I'm not a poster who makes comments based off of reviews or what folks say about something. I actually go listen.
I realize how hard it is for some to thing that a Quatro could sound better than twice the price S3. I really do get that as it defy's what we are taught and told our whole audio lives. I love the carbon drivers. To me speakers that are phase correct have always sounded best. I loved the old Avalon's What a great speaker that I couldn't afford, lol. Phase correct. There have been others that were phase correct that I didn't like, like Jim Theil's...a GREAT GUY btw. he's missed. I just hated his highs. I couldn't listen for more than a cut or two. Not warm or musical, but revealing. Polar opposite of Vandersteen's.
Quatro's to me are the best value in all the speaker world. It's the sweet spot of Richard's line of speakers. It has the tech from the 7's (my favorite high end speaker by far and owned by MANY top designers I have met as well as reviewers, but they won't put that out there). That tell's me a lot as they are buying them with their own money even though many manufacturer's GIVE them comp products (surprise it's true). He won't discount and folks don't believe they are getting a good deal because of it, but I promise you that they hold their value. He also offers many of his upgrades as long as he's able to do it. That gives you speakers a pretty long lifespan unlike many others.
They are dynamic and musical. I sit and listen to the music for as long as a dealer will let me. I don't want to talk until after I'm done. They are coherent, sound like a point source (what Magico talks about too) and can sound great no matter the size, scope or complexity of the music. I listen to everything and want my speakers to sound great all the time. I LOVE an active bass region as it also makes my amp sound better. If an amp doesn't have to worry about working much below 100hz, then it's freed up and will also sound more dynamic (laws of physics? I don't know, but I know what I hear). To me, that's a huge win win, but again, there are other ways to skin that cat. Hey, Wilson's are dynamic as heck, but have no micro or macro detaIL. That's where the emotion lies in music I feel. The carbon tweeter that Richard makes, to me sound better than any of the diamond coated tweeters. My fav of the diamond coated are the Tidal's. That said, the Tidal's still don't recreate music as good as the Vandy 7's. They may be my second favorite speaker though, but they also cost well north of 100k more. Add the Vandy 9 subs and you can smooth out bass in any room and have the most musical speakers you can possibly own. Not cheap, but more versatile to set up properly, that's for sure. I digress as normal, sorry.
When I hear Vandy's, they don't WOW me. I don't jump out of my seat, but they sound right. I listen more than I ever have and that was with my older Treo's. I wanted true high end, and the Quatro's will give me that. I also wanted looks and I had mine painted Audio Havana Black (same as Bill Low's I was told). Just love the color. They will paint their speakers any color you want for an uncharge. Their finishing is as good as it gets and if pay for the cut and polish version of the paint, you can have a finish that's as good as any car going.
Did I like the Magico's? Yes, very much....from about 80hz up. I found they are not as realistic to me in the bass as the Quatro's on up are. I found a bit of a disconnect for me in the bass. That's what I talk about when I say coherent. I want a speaker that is just as good on top all the way down to real, full range bass. If I'm spending 15k or more on a speaker, why can't it do that? There is no reason not to have a true full range speaker. I don't care about an all aluminum cabinet that's really expensive to build. Does it help? I guess, but others have found a less expensive way to do things and they give you more of the sound at half the cost. If you put a 5ct up against the M series I don't know what you get as I've not heard the M's, but if you go dollar vs dollar, the Quatro, to me is better than the S3 and the 5ct is much better than the Quatro and should be for the cost difference. How much are the M's that someone mentioned above? The 7 mk 2's are around 62k I think. I'd put them up against any speaker I've ever heard and if you add the 9 subs and the Vandersteen amp (man is that a killer amp for his speakers) you basically have a fully active system that you can move around to sound it's best in nearly any room due to the swarm ability of the bass units. I hear subtle differences between cable, power and components when using Vandersteen's. That's not to be said of all speakers.
Yes, I'm a Vandersteen fan, but that doesn't mean I"m not open to loving others as much or more. If a speaker comes out that I feel I like better and I can afford to make that switch, I promise you I will. Until then, I'll just enjoy listening and loving my music and helping friends go listen to figure out what they like best and love audio with folks who listen the same or differently than I do. I won't put down anyone's products and I'm not putting down Magico or Wilson in any way as the market surly is there for them. If you bought a pair of speakers and listened to much of what is out there, then you got what you wanted and fell in love with, but if you didn't hear a pair of Vandersteen's set up by Mike or Johnny or Bruce in SD or Joe Heusi in Houston or .....then you may want to do yourself a favor and go listen for fun and just enjoy some music. Like them, hate them at least then you will believe even more in what you do own or will own.
Flame away as that's only fair. I have big shoulders, but please keep in mind that I'm coming from a good place as we all love audio components as well as music (getting Diana Krall tickets this week. Bought GREAT seats for Joe Bonamassa last week and saw Bon Jovi with the wife the weekend before my FL trip. Set up to go to a jazz bar in LA next week and possibly two). Please also check out a good friend of mine's band if he plays near you. Bill Drummond (he was written up last year in Stereophile for having a few systems (Vandersteen and Magnapan). He's world class as jazz drummers go. He's based in NYC. Thanks for reading if you made it this far......Pete.....
Originally Posted by Jack 
I would suspect the voicing to be slightly different but would more than hold it's own. With the powered subwoofers they would give you a wider flexibility in amp pairings. Other than Mike don't know if there is another dealer who carries both and he doesn't have the 5A Carbon on hand to tell. His comparison would be between the S3 MkII and the Quatro CT and as you noted still a price difference there.
Guys, I'm no different than any of us. I don't work in the industry, but I happen to know many folks as I've been around forever. Even Peter (McKay of Magico) knew who I was once he saw me at the store (really nice guy who's above board. Like other manufacturer's he's a sale guy though first and foremost as he should be). He, like any other manuf. will take the best of their product and point it out. He's very very good at it.
When Wilson and Vandersteen started out, David was the better marketer, but Richard was the better designer (some disagree, but probably have never done an A/B of the two speakers as the Wilson's just don't have any micro or macro detail. David was able to get IN with the reviewers in a way that Richard didn't. Richard is a teddy bear who loves music and helping other love it, but he also is a big guy with a deep voice and opinionated. Just polar opposites. To me the proof is that Richard invented the 2's and made history, but David was able to do more seminars and he went after the higher end with the my dynamic speakers other than horns that were out on the market. He told folks what to listen for and how to listen and they did. I don't know anyone who thinks the Watt/Puppys were musical or natural sounding. I knew many who bought into them, but eventually got rid of them as they sounded so great and exciting in the store, but they grew tired of them quickly. Even dealers I knew who sold them never had them home as they weren't musical.
Before I get completely skewered about these thoughts, they are mine, yes, but also a compilation of many dealers and manufacturer's I know, including a few who used work at Wilson. The reason for this little story is that is shows that marketing is the MOST important thing to manufacturer's as it gets folks into the store. I spoke with three dealers I know this week about how they show components. Do they sell on what the highest markup is? Do they sell what they like the best? Do they sell what folks come in to listen to without really 'pushing' them to listen to a few other products or do they sell folks the product they came into the store to buy?
One said that he sells folks what they came into buy, one said that he basically makes folks listen to two or three choices before they make up their mind. My personal view is that we all have different ways to purchase, but we all go crazy trying to get the best of the best. We spend, spend, spend. We stay up all night long mentally masturbating components, electrical, digital cables for crying out loud. We are on forums and listening to everyone but ourselves? We read a review or ad and believe what we are told. We all do this don't we? If folks are honest with themselves, do they really audition other speakers (because this happens to be a speaker thread, but substitute other components) or do they believe the hype and pricing and buy the most expensive ones that have a sexy look etc..?
All designer's are trying to make what they feel are the best speakers, but they all have different ways to do it. There really are laws of physics, lol. There are also price points. Does that mean a designer can't punch way above their head? NO.
Will folks open up their minds even if it means they aren't spending the most? I highly doubt it as we've been told differently. I NEVER liked Vandersteen speakers. Not at all. My former three favorite dealers all actually carried the line and did quite well with it (as many came into their stores to buy a pair of 2's because they heard all about them (and probably never listened to anything else). None of them ever had them set up correctly and liked other speakers better (Wilson, Proac and B&W's). I couldn't afford the Wilsons and didn't like how they sounded as they were just dynamic boom boxes that made my ears hurt. I didn't warm up to the B&W"s either and again, they were more than I wanted to spend back then. I went to a dealer in Providence RI (no longer in business, but the owner and I stay in touch) to purchase the Vandersteen's (1990's) and the rest of a system that would go with them, but he had a pair of Proacs he wanted to move that were listed for three times the Vandy's, but were sold as demo's for only 800 or so more. I walked out of there that day with Proac Superpowers that were hotrodded with internal MIT wire. They had a huge sound stage and were pretty dynamic. I was impressed IN THE STORE. Kind of like purchasing the brightest TV in Best Buy because it's the brightest so it stands out. I NEVER listened to the Vandersteen that day to be honest. My wife at the time didn't either and she thought the Proac tower in teak was really pretty. I lived with that set up (Quicksilver amps and preamp that always were internal wired with MIT wire along with a custom made MIT cable with MH770 wire (the wire they used for Spectral gear and still is their best wire they use today). The system sounded great for the most part and I owned it until a few years ago. I wanted to get a better system as the material advances were dramatic over the last 15 years or so. I wanted to buy a system and not a component. I went to the closest Proac dealer that Richard sent me to (Richard as the former long time distributor of Proac and helpful to me, even though most hated him. He even sold me a full set of new drivers for the Superpowers after their foam surrounds rotted out, so my speakers were way warmer and nicer than the original Towers, but still not musical per say). Oh, I also had two pair of Studio 100'as by that point that also needed new drivers. I decided to sell off everything. I still have a few pieces to sell, but I invested in a new system.
I went to Audio Connections in NJ (2.5 hour drive) to get a new pair of Proac's. If Johnny was like other dealers, I would have walked out of there with a new pair of speaker's that I still didn't love. He basically forced me to listen to a pair of Treo's he had in the store. They are set up nicely, but the room was the worst sounding room you could have. My dad, brother and I were all shocked at what we heard. I originally told him I didn't want to listen as I never liked Vandy's. Of course I didn't because they were never set up properly. I'm SOOOO glad that I listened. I didn't walk out with new speakers though.
Johnny opened my ears and I told him that I needed to sell gear first and that I needed to really go audition. Yes, I'm THAT guy. I travel a lot and I have a ton of friends. I decided to go audition everything I could. I spent a ton of time in many shops all over the country and I gave everything a real listen. I didn't like most of what I was hearing. It just didn't pull me in. When I auditioned, dealers would constantly talk to me to tell me what I was supposed to be hearing. They wouldn't listen to the music, but they told me how great this was or that was or what the cabinet material is or that they can't tell me what it is, because it's a big secret. I asked specific questions about how much new drivers would cost and what the surrounds were made of (didn't want to have to re cone or re surround them ever). I loved the dealers that would play one pair of speakers at a bit higher volume than the other (there is a reason for loudness matching). The dealers that used the remote control to control volume DURING the song to compensate for a speaker that has lesser dynamics than another one.
I hated dealers who wouldn't let me listen at very low volumes to see if a speaker collapses or loses all dynamics at Sunday morning listening levels. There are so many tricks in audio and most of us fall for them at least some of the time. I made a commitment to myself that I wanted the best components I could afford at the time and also be able to grow in the near future as I knew I could afford more over time. I wanted a true system that worked best together. I also realized that if I went on reviews, many of the components wouldn't sound good together. That's why I like the rest of the world's view of active or semi active speakers. If I have to 'tune' a system with cable, then I don't feel it's well engineered. Cables all do sound differently, but I have found over time that one main stream brand is the most neutral. It won't sound great with all systems and that's probably because many components aren't as musically truthful as others. To me, that's a pretty simple concept. (yes, we all can still hear differently and I never try to push friends into things that I like, but I do always try to make sure they listen to more than just one or two choices. This is why a dealer like Mike and others offer choices.).
Sorry for the diatribe, but with the MS, I'm no longer a great communicator and in writing I come off as brash, opinionated and a jerk at times. For those who get to know me, they disagree with that assessment. I'm not a poster who makes comments based off of reviews or what folks say about something. I actually go listen.
I realize how hard it is for some to thing that a Quatro could sound better than twice the price S3. I really do get that as it defy's what we are taught and told our whole audio lives. I love the carbon drivers. To me speakers that are phase correct have always sounded best. I loved the old Avalon's What a great speaker that I couldn't afford, lol. Phase correct. There have been others that were phase correct that I didn't like, like Jim Theil's...a GREAT GUY btw. he's missed. I just hated his highs. I couldn't listen for more than a cut or two. Not warm or musical, but revealing. Polar opposite of Vandersteen's.
Quatro's to me are the best value in all the speaker world. It's the sweet spot of Richard's line of speakers. It has the tech from the 7's (my favorite high end speaker by far and owned by MANY top designers I have met as well as reviewers, but they won't put that out there). That tell's me a lot as they are buying them with their own money even though many manufacturer's GIVE them comp products (surprise it's true). He won't discount and folks don't believe they are getting a good deal because of it, but I promise you that they hold their value. He also offers many of his upgrades as long as he's able to do it. That gives you speakers a pretty long lifespan unlike many others.
They are dynamic and musical. I sit and listen to the music for as long as a dealer will let me. I don't want to talk until after I'm done. They are coherent, sound like a point source (what Magico talks about too) and can sound great no matter the size, scope or complexity of the music. I listen to everything and want my speakers to sound great all the time. I LOVE an active bass region as it also makes my amp sound better. If an amp doesn't have to worry about working much below 100hz, then it's freed up and will also sound more dynamic (laws of physics? I don't know, but I know what I hear). To me, that's a huge win win, but again, there are other ways to skin that cat. Hey, Wilson's are dynamic as heck, but have no micro or macro detaIL. That's where the emotion lies in music I feel. The carbon tweeter that Richard makes, to me sound better than any of the diamond coated tweeters. My fav of the diamond coated are the Tidal's. That said, the Tidal's still don't recreate music as good as the Vandy 7's. They may be my second favorite speaker though, but they also cost well north of 100k more. Add the Vandy 9 subs and you can smooth out bass in any room and have the most musical speakers you can possibly own. Not cheap, but more versatile to set up properly, that's for sure. I digress as normal, sorry.
When I hear Vandy's, they don't WOW me. I don't jump out of my seat, but they sound right. I listen more than I ever have and that was with my older Treo's. I wanted true high end, and the Quatro's will give me that. I also wanted looks and I had mine painted Audio Havana Black (same as Bill Low's I was told). Just love the color. They will paint their speakers any color you want for an uncharge. Their finishing is as good as it gets and if pay for the cut and polish version of the paint, you can have a finish that's as good as any car going.
Did I like the Magico's? Yes, very much....from about 80hz up. I found they are not as realistic to me in the bass as the Quatro's on up are. I found a bit of a disconnect for me in the bass. That's what I talk about when I say coherent. I want a speaker that is just as good on top all the way down to real, full range bass. If I'm spending 15k or more on a speaker, why can't it do that? There is no reason not to have a true full range speaker. I don't care about an all aluminum cabinet that's really expensive to build. Does it help? I guess, but others have found a less expensive way to do things and they give you more of the sound at half the cost. If you put a 5ct up against the M series I don't know what you get as I've not heard the M's, but if you go dollar vs dollar, the Quatro, to me is better than the S3 and the 5ct is much better than the Quatro and should be for the cost difference. How much are the M's that someone mentioned above? The 7 mk 2's are around 62k I think. I'd put them up against any speaker I've ever heard and if you add the 9 subs and the Vandersteen amp (man is that a killer amp for his speakers) you basically have a fully active system that you can move around to sound it's best in nearly any room due to the swarm ability of the bass units. I hear subtle differences between cable, power and components when using Vandersteen's. That's not to be said of all speakers.
Yes, I'm a Vandersteen fan, but that doesn't mean I"m not open to loving others as much or more. If a speaker comes out that I feel I like better and I can afford to make that switch, I promise you I will. Until then, I'll just enjoy listening and loving my music and helping friends go listen to figure out what they like best and love audio with folks who listen the same or differently than I do. I won't put down anyone's products and I'm not putting down Magico or Wilson in any way as the market surly is there for them. If you bought a pair of speakers and listened to much of what is out there, then you got what you wanted and fell in love with, but if you didn't hear a pair of Vandersteen's set up by Mike or Johnny or Bruce in SD or Joe Heusi in Houston or .....then you may want to do yourself a favor and go listen for fun and just enjoy some music. Like them, hate them at least then you will believe even more in what you do own or will own.
Flame away as that's only fair. I have big shoulders, but please keep in mind that I'm coming from a good place as we all love audio components as well as music (getting Diana Krall tickets this week. Bought GREAT seats for Joe Bonamassa last week and saw Bon Jovi with the wife the weekend before my FL trip. Set up to go to a jazz bar in LA next week and possibly two). Please also check out a good friend of mine's band if he plays near you. Bill Drummond (he was written up last year in Stereophile for having a few systems (Vandersteen and Magnapan). He's world class as jazz drummers go. He's based in NYC. Thanks for reading if you made it this far......Pete.....
I would suspect the voicing to be slightly different but would more than hold it's own. With the powered subwoofers they would give you a wider flexibility in amp pairings. Other than Mike don't know if there is another dealer who carries both and he doesn't have the 5A Carbon on hand to tell. His comparison would be between the S3 MkII and the Quatro CT and as you noted still a price difference there.
).
