How Old Are Your Ears? (Hearing Test)
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the professor
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What did you say?
I bet nobody gets the same answer.
I think the reason why there are so many different opinions on the sound of high end equipment, cables, etc. is because we are a group of old folks with deficient hearing who honestly claim to hear stuff that cannot be scientifically proven.
I wish that subjective reviewers of audio products were required to have their hearing checked every year and post the results. That would not be an unusual requirement. I have a pilot friend who is required to have yearly physical checks.
I think the reason why there are so many different opinions on the sound of high end equipment, cables, etc. is because we are a group of old folks with deficient hearing who honestly claim to hear stuff that cannot be scientifically proven.
I wish that subjective reviewers of audio products were required to have their hearing checked every year and post the results. That would not be an unusual requirement. I have a pilot friend who is required to have yearly physical checks.
gadawg
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I think there are things about how we hear that we don’t know how to measure yet so I think there’s much more to our hearing than 20k-20hz. I have a friend who plays in an orchestra and has had a hearing problem his entire life ... never heard much above 10k ever but yet can tune an instrument better than anyone I know by ear. He certainly can tell the difference between reproduced music and the sound of the symphony at the symphony hall as most of us can. Live music unfolds in unique not predetermined ways depending on the venue and has other qualities that I think we all agree make live music a unique event that I’ve never heard recreated by even $1MM systems. If 20k-20hz was the defining factor in creating this event we would have solved this issue decades ago. Simply put it isn’t. There are many other factors that make live music special and we don’t really know how to measure that so why do we continue to use the fact that as we age and we hear less than 20k-20hz we somehow can’t appreciate the best in audio equipment? Asserting that we need to test our hearing for what is likely the least important factor in our perception of music makes no sense to me at all.
Agree? Disagree?
Interesting topic for sure
George
Agree? Disagree?
Interesting topic for sure
George
Audiophilehi
Member
I can hear 12,000 HZ. Can't hear 15,000 HZ.
Shadowfax
Well-known member
I could only hear the original tone at the beginning, then none of the others. I worked in Machine Shops and Press Rooms for 25 years as well as loud music for decades.
TheOctopus
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Ludwig van Beethoven was completely deaf and still pumping out great compositions later in life. He started going deaf in his 20’s and most likely due to lead poisoning from food plates of the era. (His hair DNA was analyzed by the precision instruments we have today.) By 45 he was completely deaf and became a recluse only allowing closest friends to visit and communicate by written notes.
Music is a language, with rules however. Knowing the rules of how music is made, he could sit at his desk and compose a piece of music without hearing it. He could imagine it in his head.
Musical talent and writing compositions on the level of Beethoven is one thing, an aging audiophile is another.
It is what it is, the upper end starts to go and much earlier than most think. Yet plenty of recording studio engineers missing perhaps the 8,000Hz of their hearing and quite possibly suffering some “notches” as well, are still producing music. Such is life. Enjoy the gift while it is still with us.
Music is a language, with rules however. Knowing the rules of how music is made, he could sit at his desk and compose a piece of music without hearing it. He could imagine it in his head.
Musical talent and writing compositions on the level of Beethoven is one thing, an aging audiophile is another.
It is what it is, the upper end starts to go and much earlier than most think. Yet plenty of recording studio engineers missing perhaps the 8,000Hz of their hearing and quite possibly suffering some “notches” as well, are still producing music. Such is life. Enjoy the gift while it is still with us.
A while back I added the test tones on Qobuz to my Roon library. 10 KHz is the highest I can hear although that’s getting a little faint compared to lower frequencies.
Funny thing is, even though I can’t hear the higher frequencies, I still get listening fatigue with analytical speakers that (over) emphasize the upper range.
Funny thing is, even though I can’t hear the higher frequencies, I still get listening fatigue with analytical speakers that (over) emphasize the upper range.
TheOctopus
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Because the listening fatigue is also caused by reflective rooms and early and late reflections/echoes of the fundamental tone. The "ringing" as well as excitation of room modes of certain frequencies, in certain rooms, is a dead giveaway. It fatigues the ear/brain mechanism that is constantly trying to localize the source of the sound as a survival instinct. We don't experience that in open/outdoor spaces.
Instead of reaching for audiophile tweaks, acoustic solutions for the room should be priority number one for any audiophile looking to extract maximum potential from his/her system to room interaction. It is dollars much better spent.
TheOctopus
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Also relying on speakers/headphones/computer speakers to administer self hearing test is far from accurate. Take a look at your speaker to room response or even the headphone frequency chart and realize there are dips and peaks of some 6 or more dB and often worse due to speaker/room interaction. Obviously visiting an ENT/hearing center where they use, precise and calibrated equipment is the way to do it. Having said that, chances are that if none of the fundamental tones are clearly audible past 10-15Khz, your hearing really is gone already. I can't hear a damn thing past 14,000Hz and I am in my early 50s. Does not bother me at all while listening to music but that sense of ambiance, air and top end sparkle I used to marvel at in my 20s, has not been heard in the past decade already. Such is the audiophile fate. Enjoy the vocals 
The older I get, the more I like my subwoofer... :lol:
The older I get, the more I like my subwoofer... :lol:
The standard audiologic testing only goes to 8 kHz. Some audiologists have equipment that can test up to 16 kHz; however, there are inevitable questions about accuracy in the 8 - 16 kHz range due to the individual fit of their headphones. If one can achieve good sound isolation (many of us have very quiet and isolated listening rooms), a good pair of audiophile headphones is probably more likely to achieve flat frequency response to 20 kHz than most audiologists' equipment.
This test is not a great one since there is little attempt to ensure equal levels. Anyone who can use Audacity (a free DAW) can create a much better hearing test on their own, and more precisely determine their own hearing thresholds. In addition, especially as we get older, both our hearing thresholds in general and the high frequency limit in particular varies from day to day and hour to hour depending on a variety of factors.
Despite official standards, there is disagreement about how well pure-tone audiometry actually reflects functional hearing loss. Without getting into that, I always use the 1000 Hz level as the 0 dB reference. The "standard" is that -25 dB then represents "mild" hearing loss. On a good day (today is apparently a good day for me), -25 dB comes at just over 16 kHz, and if I boost the signal by 45 dB I can still just hear 18 kHz (I am 67). Nothing like ear protection in noisy environments to preserve hearing. Despite that I still have a "notch" of -20 dB at around 6 kHz (I am otherwise within 5 dB of the reference 1 kHz 0 dB at all frequencies up to about 12-14 kHz, when my hearing usually starts to slope down) which indicates some noise-induced hearing damage.
This test is not a great one since there is little attempt to ensure equal levels. Anyone who can use Audacity (a free DAW) can create a much better hearing test on their own, and more precisely determine their own hearing thresholds. In addition, especially as we get older, both our hearing thresholds in general and the high frequency limit in particular varies from day to day and hour to hour depending on a variety of factors.
Despite official standards, there is disagreement about how well pure-tone audiometry actually reflects functional hearing loss. Without getting into that, I always use the 1000 Hz level as the 0 dB reference. The "standard" is that -25 dB then represents "mild" hearing loss. On a good day (today is apparently a good day for me), -25 dB comes at just over 16 kHz, and if I boost the signal by 45 dB I can still just hear 18 kHz (I am 67). Nothing like ear protection in noisy environments to preserve hearing. Despite that I still have a "notch" of -20 dB at around 6 kHz (I am otherwise within 5 dB of the reference 1 kHz 0 dB at all frequencies up to about 12-14 kHz, when my hearing usually starts to slope down) which indicates some noise-induced hearing damage.
CPP
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Also relying on speakers/headphones/computer speakers to administer self hearing test is far from accurate. Take a look at your speaker to room response or even the headphone frequency chart and realize there are dips and peaks of some 6 or more dB and often worse due to speaker/room interaction. Obviously visiting an ENT/hearing center where they use, precise and calibrated equipment is the way to do it. Having said that, chances are that if none of the fundamental tones are clearly audible past 10-15Khz, your hearing really is gone already. I can't hear a damn thing past 14,000Hz and I am in my early 50s. Does not bother me at all while listening to music but that sense of ambiance, air and top end sparkle I used to marvel at in my 20s, has not been heard in the past decade already. Such is the audiophile fate. Enjoy the vocals
Hell I'm screwed at 10,0476Hz per my ENT who happens to be my cousin. . Mine was caused by loud rock and roll bandmanship ( 60's & 70's) and drag racing (80's) hell I should have listen to my parents about hearing protection. I'm not enjoying Tinnitus either ( its right ear at 10,000Hz) PS, your freaking young, I'm late 60's just turned 68 Nov 24. Hearing loss can get serious as with Benign paroxysmal positional vertigo (BPPV) and dementia., In a study that tracked 639 adults for nearly 12 years, Johns Hopkins expert Frank Lin, M.D., Ph. D, and his colleagues found that mild hearing loss doubled dementia risk. Moderate loss tripled risk, and people with a severe hearing impairment were five times more likely to develop dementia. So getting your hearing checked is a "GOOD idea".
FYI:
There are several types of hearing loss:
Conductive hearing loss: This results from something blocking sound from getting through the outer or middle ear.
Sensorineural hearing loss: This is a result of a problem in the inner ear or with the auditory nerve.
Mixed hearing loss: This is a combination of conductive and sensorineural hearing loss.
Now crank it up boys, you will only pay for it as ya get older.
TheOctopus
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There are other tests but the pure tone audiology test is still the golden standard of the cheapest, reliable and accurate hearing loss tests. One can listen to tones in their rooms but the speaker to room response of most audiophile systems is not nearly as flat as the specialty headphones used in audiology. Then again the hearing loss often far exceeds the dB variations of typically good measuring speakers/headphones by a very, very wide margin.
The above 8Khz range is of less interest because it does not interfere with normal speech recognition of hearing loss patients. That is typically the main concern, not whether an aging audiophile can hear out beyond 16Khz with a 45dB boost. How is that even practical for anything?
Hearing aids are typically up to 8Khz and some newer models out to 10Khz. No one really cares about mosquito sounds and dog whistles when they struggle to hear a voice directed at them.
Having a hearing deficiency will still require a visit to doctor but even that is changing. Soon there will be OTC hearing aids. Over the counter that do not need a visit to the doctor and will be FDA approved as they are establishing guidelines for manufacturers at this time. Mild to moderate hearing loss will be eased with a trip to the store. "A law established on August 18, 2017, as part of the FDA Reauthorization Act of 2017, directed the FDA to create a category of OTC hearing aids for adults who might have mild-to-moderate hearing loss."
CPP
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TheOctopus
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Yes, no doubt in the future there will be brilliant solutions from electronic devices and perhaps in another century or so there will be serious genetic modifications. A cat would be a good animal to start modeling the human hearing with genetics. 45Hz – 64,000Hz. Then we will once again need to step it up with recorded music quality, linearity, dynamic range and invent new musical instruments to tickle the cochlea at 64,000Hz.
The 8-16 kHz range is important for 1) quantifying presbycusis (when that matters) and 2) monitoring damage from ototoxic chemicals and drugs.
If an audiologist used only pure-tone audiometry to determine hearing impairment and design a hearing aid for a person (no qualified audiologist would) he would likely be disqualified from further practice.
Who ever said anything about listening to tones through speakers in a room to assess hearing acuity? Why would anyone even suggest such a thing? Now, listening to quality headphones in a quiet, isolated room is another thing entirely.
TheOctopus
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I missed the part about the "headphones" in a very quiet and isolated listening room and thought you meant the main system. I am not an audiologist or an ENT but I do understand the need for further investigation than the typical hearing test for ototoxic effects. I thought a standard audiology test is the one that quantifies presbycusis or hearing loss due to aging... Is that not the case?
No. Presbycusis is more specifically the gradual loss of high-frequency hearing due to aging; aging alone is not necessarily associated with a loss of useful hearing. The losses in the 500 - 8000 Hz range usually measured by audiologists have a variety of other causes (e.g., acoustic and other trauma, infection, genetics, some ototoxic chemicals).
TheOctopus
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The ear/brain mechanism is a fascinating topic in itself. I found this article very interesting when I read it. The non-linear hearing and a non-linear processing by the brain is still a mystery for the most part. Not surprising given the fact that our brains resemble quantum computers to begin with. Just a bunch of electrical signals firing across the vastness of the brain through the neural network. A typical, healthy brain has over 200 billion nerve cells, which are connected to one another via hundreds of trillions of synapses.
We have more "switches" in our brains than all the computer switches in the world.
Human hearing is highly nonlinear – Physics World.
We have more "switches" in our brains than all the computer switches in the world.
Human hearing is highly nonlinear – Physics World.