DSD Playback on non dedicated audio equipment

B

Bryston FAN

New member
Joined
Sep 5, 2014
Messages
14
Location
St Albans UK
Has anyone else encountered a DSD file sounding inferior to a FLAC file when using JRiver or similar software to play Audio files on none dedicated DVD equipment.

I have found a significant difference between DSD and either WAV or FLAC files when played on my "Audiophile" PCs.

Both digital players (PCs) I own encounter the same problem.

One PC comprises a SuperMicro X10SBA Motherboard with Intel Celeron J1900 (10W, 4C) CPU and 8GB of 1600MHz DDR3L. a SOtM tX-USB PCIe USB Card and Plextor mSATA 512Gb the OS is Windows 8 optimized and JRiver software feeding a Bryston BDA-2. the signal from the DAC is fed into a Bryston BDA-1 and Sennheiser HD800 or Audeze LCD3 headphones.

I first discovered inferior playback of DSD files after downloading a WAV pre-release of the GRACE track from the forthcoming Fiona Joy album SIGNATURE album supplied by Blue Coast Records.
I was very impressed with the sample track. Gave the sense that my listening room had become the recording studio.
As soon as the album was released, I purchased a DSD version of the complete album. I had decided to purchased the DSD version even though my equipment is not currently dedicated for DSD, but I was aware that the JRiver software would play DSD files.
The reasoning behind this was to allow for future equipment upgrades.
When I started to play the album, it was very noticeable that there was a difference between the Pre WAV and final DSD release.

Just in case it was a glitch with that particular track, I decided to purchase the album in both a WAV and a FLAC. This would allow me to subjectively appraise the DVD version.
When played on either of my "Audiophile" PCs, it was difficult to detect any differences between the WAV and FLAC versions of the album, but the DSD version by comparison, seems lifeless. Treble was muted and a lack of reverberations associated with a piano.
Playing DSD files, the Bryston BDA-2 displays a 172Kh signal is being input into the DAC from the PC but the amplitude of the peaks on the audio signal was reduced when displayed on the JRiver software.

Am I expecting too much of the fabulous JRiver software.

The other PC I own is similar in most aspects, except it uses a Intel Atom motherboard with 4Gb memory.
The Intel Atom based PC feeds a Bryston BP25 preamp and either Meridian M20 or M100 speakers.
 
Audioseduction said:
I experience no issues playing DSD via JRiver to my non-DSD Bel Canto DAC. Sounds extremely good!
Click to expand...


Hi George
Many thanks for your reply.
I also, have not experienced any issues when playing DSD files.
I'm not suggesting DSD files don't sound good, but FLAC sounds better, when comparing an identical track, on my equipment.

Regards
Martin
 
Bryston FAN said:
I hope it is a JRiver setting issue, since I would like to continue purchasing DSD albums.
Click to expand...

So just out of curiosity, in JRiver, under Tools/Options/Audio - DSP and output format... what sample rate is JRiver set to convert your DSD files to?
is it possible, the JRiver conversion setting is to a format that your DAC doesn't work as well with???

I have experimented with DSD into a Meitner MA-1. I experimented with sending DSD direct in various ways and also converting DSD to various other PCM sample rates. I struggled to find an overall winner.. everything worked extremely well.
 
Bryston FAN said:
I hope it is a JRiver setting issue, since I would like to continue purchasing DSD albums.
Click to expand...

Today has been full of mysteries so I might as well have one more to deal with. Please explain to me how you are going to download a DSD file to your PC you are using as a music server, play it through JRiver which can play DSD files, and then send a DSD signal to your Bryston DAC which is incapable of playing back DSD files, and then expect to hear DSD playback? Am I missing something? JRiver has to be setup to play with the DAC you are using. You have a PCM DAC, so therefore JRiver must be converting the DSD file to PCM so you can play it on your PCM DAC otherwise you would have no sound. So unless I'm missing something, you aren't really hearing DSD playback. You are hearing DSD converted to PCM in JRiver and then played back as a PCM file over your DAC.
 
Ding, ding, ding - I believe we have a winner. It sounds to me like mep is correct in explaining what is actually happening in this alleged "DSD" playback scenario.
 
Bryston FAN said:
I was not expecting true DSD quality, but I was expecting a DSD file to match the quality of a FLAC file.
Click to expand...

Sorry bro. When you convert DSD to PCM, you have created a red-headed step child that is neither. It's like if you had a girl friend or wife with jet black hair and she dyed her hair blonde and you were hoping her roots would never grow out and ruin the illusion.
 
mep said:
Sorry bro. When you convert DSD to PCM, you have created a red-headed step child that is neither. It's like if you had a girl friend or wife with jet black hair and she dyed her hair blonde and you were hoping her roots would never grow out and ruin the illusion.
Click to expand...

I would disagree. Like I said it sounds extremely good on my system.
 
Bryston FAN said:
The sample rate is set at 176,400 Hz
Click to expand...

have you tried selecting different sample rates for this conversion, very easy to do in JRiver.

I notice extremely little change between direct DSD to my MA-1 and when converting to DSD to PCM.
 
mep said:
Sorry bro. When you convert DSD to PCM, you have created a red-headed step child that is neither. It's like if you had a girl friend or wife with jet black hair and she dyed her hair blonde and you were hoping her roots would never grow out and ruin the illusion.
Click to expand...

A very interesting analogy.
Analogies aside, I would still have expected Pulse Code Modulation to sound better than it appears on my system.


I obtained the following from the nuFORCE website, which I understood at the time to be accurate rational.


DSD vs PCM

Direct-Stream Digital is simply a 1-bit digital audio format that is based on the Sigma-Delta encoding/decoding architecture, and in practice is commonly referred to as a DSD recording/file.

Many are not aware though that whether they are employed in the processing of PCM or DSD signals, all modern DAC chips are actually based on the same basic Sigma-Delta architecture. In short, the only real question is whether we're sending a PCM or DSD signal to be decoded by a Sigma-Delta DAC.

With respect to PCM, a typical DAC applies multi-bit modulation for converting incoming data into a Sigma-Delta signal, and then that signal is processed by a following Low-Pass Filter stage. DSD decoding skips the Sigma-Delta conversion part of the process as the signal is directly decoded by the DAC, after which it is then processed by the Low-Pass Filter stage.

The differences between the two processes are relatively minimal and somewhat akin to comparing 10 dimes with a 1-dollar bill and trying to determine which is better. In one case where you have a coin purse, 10 dimes is better. In the case where you have a wallet though, the dollar bill is preferable. In either case, you still have the exact same amount of currency. Likewise in the case of PCM vs. DSD, you still have the same amount of data being processed. It's simply a matter of how the decoding hardware (DAC) was constructed as to which format is preferable.

Therefore, no matter how you view it DSD and PCM are nothing more than different ways of looking at the exact same thing. While there are differences, where and when the data is converted is of little practical importance with respect to the end result.

In fact, during the recording process virtually all DSD recording are first converted into PCM for mixing, equalization and other "artistic" processing. Upon completion, the data is then converted back to DSD format and manufactured into discs of "so called" DSD recordings (SACD) for distribution to consumers. In addition, the majority of DSD recordings are actually converted from original PCM masters. One should note that most all such back-and-forth conversion is performed via software – not hardware.

In similar fashion, during DSD playback from a PC both the uDAC3 and Icon DAC employ a computer-resident ASIO driver along with a special USB communications chip that is contained within the NuForce product. Together, each of these works in cooperation with the other for achieving real-time DSD to PCM conversion.

One should also note that the interestingly enough, the DSD format was originally developed to facilitate conversion to the 44.1kHz CD standard. Hence, the PCM equivalent of a 2.8Mhz DSD file would be manifest as an 88.2kHz file at 20-bit resolution. Compared to a 24-bit PCM file, DSD delivers a dynamic range that is actually 24dB less. Similarly, a "double" 5.6Mhz DSD file is the equivalent of a PCM file recorded at 176.4kHz and 20-bit resolution.
 
Rayooo said:
have you tried selecting different sample rates for this conversion, very easy to do in JRiver.

I notice extremely little change between direct DSD to my MA-1 and when converting to DSD to PCM.
Click to expand...


No I have not tried different sample rates yet, but it is probably worth me playing with the settings.


With regard to you finding little change between direct DSD to your MA-1 and when converting to DSD to PCM. That is exactly what I would have expected to find with my system.
 
Bryston FAN said:
A very interesting analogy.
Analogies aside, I would still have expected Pulse Code Modulation to sound better than it appears on my system.


I obtained the following from the nuFORCE website, which I understood at the time to be accurate rational.


DSD vs PCM

Direct-Stream Digital is simply a 1-bit digital audio format that is based on the Sigma-Delta encoding/decoding architecture, and in practice is commonly referred to as a DSD recording/file.

Many are not aware though that whether they are employed in the processing of PCM or DSD signals, all modern DAC chips are actually based on the same basic Sigma-Delta architecture. In short, the only real question is whether we're sending a PCM or DSD signal to be decoded by a Sigma-Delta DAC.

With respect to PCM, a typical DAC applies multi-bit modulation for converting incoming data into a Sigma-Delta signal, and then that signal is processed by a following Low-Pass Filter stage. DSD decoding skips the Sigma-Delta conversion part of the process as the signal is directly decoded by the DAC, after which it is then processed by the Low-Pass Filter stage.

The differences between the two processes are relatively minimal and somewhat akin to comparing 10 dimes with a 1-dollar bill and trying to determine which is better. In one case where you have a coin purse, 10 dimes is better. In the case where you have a wallet though, the dollar bill is preferable. In either case, you still have the exact same amount of currency. Likewise in the case of PCM vs. DSD, you still have the same amount of data being processed. It's simply a matter of how the decoding hardware (DAC) was constructed as to which format is preferable.

Therefore, no matter how you view it DSD and PCM are nothing more than different ways of looking at the exact same thing. While there are differences, where and when the data is converted is of little practical importance with respect to the end result.

In fact, during the recording process virtually all DSD recording are first converted into PCM for mixing, equalization and other "artistic" processing. Upon completion, the data is then converted back to DSD format and manufactured into discs of "so called" DSD recordings (SACD) for distribution to consumers. In addition, the majority of DSD recordings are actually converted from original PCM masters. One should note that most all such back-and-forth conversion is performed via software – not hardware.

In similar fashion, during DSD playback from a PC both the uDAC3 and Icon DAC employ a computer-resident ASIO driver along with a special USB communications chip that is contained within the NuForce product. Together, each of these works in cooperation with the other for achieving real-time DSD to PCM conversion.

One should also note that the interestingly enough, the DSD format was originally developed to facilitate conversion to the 44.1kHz CD standard. Hence, the PCM equivalent of a 2.8Mhz DSD file would be manifest as an 88.2kHz file at 20-bit resolution. Compared to a 24-bit PCM file, DSD delivers a dynamic range that is actually 24dB less. Similarly, a "double" 5.6Mhz DSD file is the equivalent of a PCM file recorded at 176.4kHz and 20-bit resolution.
Click to expand...

Oversimplified to the point of becoming nonsense.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top