Are they going to destroy audio?

[Michaels HiFi]

I saw a post over on another forum that echoed a concern I've had for awhile based on what we see happening around us.

On that forum there were some people pushing class D amps with unsubstantiated claims that their "carbon footprint" is smaller than that of other amps to design and build and therefore we need to get rid of the other types of amps. Personally I don't care about the imaginary carbon footprint of my gear I care about how it sounds.

I also see people in general posting about concern for how much energy Class A amps waste and therefore should be outlawed.

What are your thoughts? Are these people going to destroy audio? I think of CA for instance that just outlawed the purchase of any new gas powered outdoor equipment. I can picture them coming for our amps next.

Maybe I need a bumper sticker that reads "you can pry my tube amp from my cold dead hands" as a play of another famous saying? LOL. That could just be the Texas in me talking.

ETA: This is NOT meant to talk about the political issues - just the real concern of them ruining audio. As an example - Luxman has stopped producing their 590 class A amp due to this issue. So it's real.

 

[Speedskater]

I would say the opposite. Class 'D' amps are used in everything from extremely small hearing aids & cell-phones to the largest audio amps. The designs and chips have been refined for some decades now.

 

[Phil A]

My last few amps have been Class D (I have one in a back-up system) too. Are they on par with the super high end like Boulder, Gryphon, etc. No of course not. But I had a Class A/AB amp that is still current and lists for $11k and in my system it is no contest. I had another well know brand where the Class A/AB amp listed for around the same (which I had about 10 years back) and the Class D I have blows it out of the water in my system.

So for me it's not so much the green issue. I am on the grid but I have solar panels integrated in the roof tiles (was done when the house was built). It's the fact I'll be 71 in a few months and the warranty is expiring on some of me. So I was really happy to have amps that outperform what I have had and don't come with the free hernia. I just had a new screen (120 inch) installed yesterday (I have an integrated AV system) and will be waiting a few months for the ultra short throw projector I want to be released. My painter is here now and just helped me moved my partially disassembled rack into place. It is 350 pounds fully assembled and probably over 200 pounds before I put the rest of it together.

Personally, I think some people just over react to the green thing. For example purely electric cars (I currently have a hybrid Lexus RX450h, which doesn't plug in and am waiting for the new RX 350h which also doesn't plug in) result in lots of problems, including the disposable of lithium batteries, charge locations and charge times and where the electricity comes from (not to mention the extra weight of the vehicle which can be an issue for others in accidents and if they catch on fire as well as how cobalt is mined for those batteries - DR Congo cobalt miners work in treacherous conditions - YouTube)

So I wouldn't really worry about the ultra high end getting crushed by Class D in the near term. I do think we will see more powered speakers where one just plugs in the source in a few years.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I would say the opposite. Class 'D' amps are used in everything from extremely small hearing aids & cell-phones to the largest audio amps. The designs and chips have been refined for some decades now.

It is certainly well used, but most people agree it is not audiophile ready.

Shouldn't it be up to a person whether they like the sound of Class D and be able to CHOOSE it over the other designs vs being forced on them?

 

[Hear Here]

I saw a post over on another forum that echoed a concern I've had for awhile based on what we see happening around us.

On that forum there were some people pushing class D amps with unsubstantiated claims that their "carbon footprint" is smaller than that of other amps to design and build and therefore we need to get rid of the other types of amps. Personally I don't care about the imaginary carbon footprint of my gear I care about how it sounds.

I also see people in general posting about concern for how much energy Class A amps waste and therefore should be outlawed.

What are your thoughts? Are these people going to destroy audio? I think of CA for instance that just outlawed the purchase of any new gas powered outdoor equipment. I can picture them coming for our amps next.

Maybe I need a bumper sticker that reads "you can pry my tube amp from my cold dead hands" as a play of another famous saying? LOL. That could just be the Texas in me talking.

ETA: This is NOT meant to talk about the political issues - just the real concern of them ruining audio. As an example - Luxman has stopped producing their 590 class A amp due to this issue. So it's real.

Don't you care a jot for the Environment?

Has anyone suggested that Class A and tube amps should be outlawed?

Have you actually given modern Class D a proper trial in your own home?

Everything from cars to vacuum cleaners (already limited to 900 watts in EU), and maybe hi-fi in the future will be experiencing restrictions regarding their excessive use of power.

Nothing will be "banned" from being used (petrol and diesel cars will continue to be seen on the road until they become unroadworthy), but one should expect inefficient audio kit to be withdrawn and new products to be much more considerate of the environment.

Already as Ralph at Atmosphere has accepted, Class D is here to stay and has designed his latest amp using Class D technology.

Look forward not backwards. Or you'll become a dinosaur

 

[Mike]

Haven’t we been hearing about the great Class D revolution in high end audio for decades?

Didn’t Rowland just switch back to Class AB because his customers “will never accept class D”?

The GAN technology DOES sound good and the AGD amps using GAN inside tubes made with Silica/Quartz likely imparts a pleasing property on the sound as well.

But I have never, ever, ever in 8 years had a customer ask for a Class D amp. Ever.

So, before we proclaim class D as the second coming (for the 23rd time), I think there has to be a huge market shift and acceptance, along with more convincing products (like the AGD’s).

Speaking of Class D, whatever happened to the NERD, I mean NORD amps that were going to replace everyone’s tube and and Class A amps and were all the rage a few years ago?

Crickets…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Don't you care a jot for the Environment?

Has anyone suggested that Class A and tube amps should be outlawed?

Have you actually given modern Class D a proper trial in your own home?

Everything from cars to vacuum cleaners (already limited to 900 watts in EU), and maybe hi-fi in the future will be experiencing restrictions regarding their excessive use of power.

Nothing will be "banned" from being used (petrol and diesel cars will continue to be seen on the road until they become unroadworthy), but one should expect inefficient audio kit to be withdrawn and new products to be much more considerate of the environment.

Already as Ralph at Atmosphere has accepted, Class D is here to stay and has designed his latest amp using Class D technology.

Look forward not backwards. Or you'll become a dinosaur

Actually, California just passed a law banning the sale of all gas powered cars and OPE equipment.

Yes I have heard class D. It pretty much sounds sterile and lifeless to me.

I'm not going to debate statements such as "excessive use of power" when it is such an arbitrary and made up factless statement that is twisted for political purposes.

I have nothing against Class D so I'm glad it's here to stay. Just don't force me to by something based on fake info.

I also don't respond to the argument of two prisims regarding the "don't you care for the environment" schtick.

ETA:

PARIS, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Paris authorities plan to banish all petrol- and diesel-fueled cars from the world's most visited city by 2030, Paris City Hall said on Thursday.

 

[Shadowfax]

When the people pushing Green are flying in Electric Private Jets, driving in Electric Limos, and living in a fully Green House, I will start paying attention to anything with Green associated with it.

 

[Myles B. Astor]

Actually, California just passed a law banning the sale of all gas powered cars and OPE equipment.

Yes I have heard class D. It pretty much sounds sterile and lifeless to me.

I'm not going to debate statements such as "excessive use of power" when it is such an arbitrary and made up factless statement that is twisted for political purposes.

I have nothing against Class D so I'm glad it's here to stay. Just don't force me to by something based on fake info.

I also don't respond to the argument of two prisims regarding the "don't you care for the environment" schtick.

ETA:

PARIS, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Paris authorities plan to banish all petrol- and diesel-fueled cars from the world's most visited city by 2030, Paris City Hall said on Thursday.

Which Class D amplifiers have you heard? Recent models or from years ago?

I don’t agree they all sound sterile.

 

[atmasphere]

I saw a post over on another forum that echoed a concern I've had for awhile based on what we see happening around us.

On that forum there were some people pushing class D amps with unsubstantiated claims that their "carbon footprint" is smaller than that of other amps to design and build and therefore we need to get rid of the other types of amps. Personally I don't care about the imaginary carbon footprint of my gear I care about how it sounds.

I also see people in general posting about concern for how much energy Class A amps waste and therefore should be outlawed.

What are your thoughts? Are these people going to destroy audio? I think of CA for instance that just outlawed the purchase of any new gas powered outdoor equipment. I can picture them coming for our amps next.

Maybe I need a bumper sticker that reads "you can pry my tube amp from my cold dead hands" as a play of another famous saying? LOL. That could just be the Texas in me talking.

I just got a battery powered lawnmower. I really like it - its way easier to store, its lighter, no dealing with gas and gas spills or realizing I have to go to the gas station to get more gas to mow. It can easily mow the entire lawn a couple of times on one charge, and it has a space for a second battery. So much easier!! but the really nice thing is not only is it way easier to start (and my Lawnboy typically started on the first pull) but its a lot quieter. Something to think about for an audiophile...

Regarding class D, I've yet to hear a solid state class A or AB amp that sounds as relaxed, as 3D and lifelike as the class D amps I'm playing in my system. They sound remarkably similar to the class A OTLs I used to play but they are more transparent.

I get why you aren't interested in class D: I've heard some that were pretty dreadful, lifeless and the like and left me wondering if they were really serious. But take this for what its worth, there's more variance in the sound of class D amps than there is from the worst tube amp to the best. That's a really wide range. My guess is you heard some class D that was similar to some I've heard in the past and like me, left a bad taste.

The reason I went to class D was not energy or the environment, it was the sound. Happily, it takes less energy to build a set, less energy to run and after playing all day in my system are stone cold. Compared to the OTLs I used to run that's a bonus since the air conditioning isn't dealing with the extra heat in the summer. The amps are smaller too and I don't have to worry about my GF cleaning things up and cracking a tube by accident or any such thing. IMO tube power amps are on borrowed time.

Like any tech, class D was sent out into the field a bit too quickly before the bugs were worked out. And if I'm being honest, a lot of them still have bugs. So I get your concern, but really I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I just got a battery powered lawnmower. I really like it - its way easier to store, its lighter, no dealing with gas and gas spills or realizing I have to go to the gas station to get more gas to mow. It can easily mow the entire lawn a couple of times on one charge, and it has a space for a second battery. So much easier!! but the really nice thing is not only is it way easier to start (and my Lawnboy typically started on the first pull) but its a lot quieter. Something to think about for an audiophile...

Regarding class D, I've yet to hear a solid state class A or AB amp that sounds as relaxed, as 3D and lifelike as the class D amps I'm playing in my system. They sound remarkably similar to the class A OTLs I used to play but they are more transparent.

I get why you aren't interested in class D: I've heard some that were pretty dreadful, lifeless and the like and left me wondering if they were really serious. But take this for what its worth, there's more variance in the sound of class D amps than there is from the worst tube amp to the best. That's a really wide range. My guess is you heard some class D that was similar to some I've heard in the past and like me, left a bad taste.

The reason I went to class D was not energy or the environment, it was the sound. Happily, it takes less energy to build a set, less energy to run and after playing all day in my system are stone cold. Compared to the OTLs I used to run that's a bonus since the air conditioning isn't dealing with the extra heat in the summer. The amps are smaller too and I don't have to worry about my GF cleaning things up and cracking a tube by accident or any such thing. IMO tube power amps are on borrowed time.

Like any tech, class D was sent out into the field a bit too quickly before the bugs were worked out. And if I'm being honest, a lot of them still have bugs. So I get your concern, but really I wouldn't worry about it.

I tried a battery lawn mower and while nice and light, it did not have the power nor the run time to mow my Zeon Zoysia grass this year so I had to go back to a gas powered mower.

I tried 4 battery blowers and there is not a battery blower made that has the power of gas nor the run time that allows me to clean up my yard.

I agree with you that whether it be battery powered OPE or Class D it works for some and not for others. That is the great thing about CHOICE vs the arbitrary heavy hand of having your choices taken away from you - but never from them (they still fly around on their own private jets everywhere or have the huge SUV's).

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Which Class D amplifiers have you heard? Recent models or from years ago?

I don’t agree they all sound sterile.

Hi Myles - you summed up my point perfectly. You hear them differently than I do. Thus the great thing about choice and choosing what you like and what sounds good to you, vs someone else forcing you what to buy based on arbitrary made up info.

 

[puroagave]

You'll def be seeing a lot more SMPS replacing LPS in all audio gear. They are 'smart' by design and use a lot less elec. Chord, Rowland, Soulution and many others already use them. It further eliminates the need to make 3 or 4 versions of the same product instead just one that is adaptable to any mains voltage worldwide.

 

[Mikado463]

I tried a battery lawn mower and while nice and light, it did not have the power nor the run time to mow my Zeon Zoysia grass this year so I had to go back to a gas powered mower.

I tried 4 battery blowers and there is not a battery blower made that has the power of gas nor the run time that allows me to clean up my yard.

not so quick on the power of battery leaf blowers, E-Go's top of the line out performs 90% of all gas blowers out there. Only the best backpack blowers produce more CFM's. Too many people get hung up on mph whereas CFM is the real indicator.

As for Class D amps, I had the opportunity awhile back to audition one of Rogue's Hybrid Class D amps, I came away quite satisfied. When I downsize it will for sure be on my radar

 

[Hear Here]

Like any tech, class D was sent out into the field a bit too quickly before the bugs were worked out. And if I'm being honest, a lot of them still have bugs. So I get your concern, but really I wouldn't worry about it.

I guess Micheal is still using film in his cameras and watches Super 8 film. Great stuff film and some argue better than digital, but most people have accepted that digital (in both photography, video and now audio) has developed to the stage where it's becoming daft to consider anything else.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

not so quick on the power of battery leaf blowers, E-Go's top of the line out performs 90% of all gas blowers out there. Only the best backpack blowers produce more CFM's. Too many people get hung up on mph whereas CFM is the real indicator.

AS for Class D amps, I had the opportunity awhile back to audition one of Rogue's Hybrid Class D amps, I came away quite satisfied. When I downsize it will for sure be on my radar

I'm not being quick. I owned a landscaping business so I know a thing or two about blowers and have literally tired and use more than most people can count.

The Ego backpack is rated at 600 CFM. This is mediocre by most backpack blower standards so not sure where you picked the "90%" number out of thin air.

You then need to spend hundreds and hundreds on extra batteries for any meaningful run time. Redmax, Echo and Stihl backpack blowers smoke the Ego both in CFM and Newton meters force along with overall real world performance.

Now, back to audio gear....

 

[Mikado463]

I'm not being quick. I owned a landscaping business so I know a thing or two about blowers and have literally tired and use more than most people can count.

The Ego backpack is rated at 600 CFM. This is mediocre by most backpack blower standards so not sure where you picked the "90%" number out of thin air.

You then need to spend hundreds and hundreds on extra batteries for any meaningful run time. Redmax, Echo and Stihl backpack blowers smoke the Ego both in CFM and Newton meters force along with overall real world performance.

Now, back to audio gear....

I said 'the best backpack blowers' and yes in your biz they are the blower of choice but for 'Joe homeowner' not at all, majority of home owners own hand held.

back to audio, I'd love to sit you down to a good DBT test on a top Class D amp vs one from the A/B camp, hell I'd like to participate in one myself !

 

[Hear Here]

But I have never, ever, ever in 8 years had a customer ask for a Class D amp. Ever.

But Mike - do you actually stock any Class D gear? If you don't offer Class D (or didn't stock tube gear), I can fully understand that no one would be coming to you to ask for it. They'd go to someone who does stock these things.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I guess Micheal is still using film in his cameras and watches Super 8 film. Great stuff film and some argue better than digital, but most people have accepted that digital (in both photography, video and now audio) has developed to the stage where it's becoming daft to consider anything else.

Still stuck on the idea of two prisms?

I notice you are making many of the same arguments you did on the other forum where people shut you down pretty hard. And you loved calling anyone who disagreed with you daft over there as well.

I like where you said this: " Class A and valve amps are endangered species in the same way petrol and diesel cars are. They'll continue for several years but it'll be increasingly seen as anti-social to use them and models will gradually disappear as electric cars (and Class D amps) continue to improve."

Anti-social to use?

It's pretty interesting your argument over there seems to be it doesn't matter what people want and like, they need to accept what YOU want them to accept. How very anti-social.

 

[Mikado463]

But Mike - do you actually stock any Class D gear? If you don't offer Class D (or didn't stock tube gear), I can fully understand that no one would be coming to you to ask for it. They'd go to someone who does stock these things.

Good point, kinda like who goes into a Bugatti dealer looking for a used Corvette .............