A must read...

Great article. Could not agree more.

And BTW, I don't blame you all for being jealous of my kick ass system. :D
 
Hahahah Jax.

Really though, A-stream had to go spil it with the reference to the $10K Ethernet cable.

I will never subscribe to that one...
 
jaxwired said:
Great article. Could not agree more.

And BTW, I don't blame you all for being jealous of my kick ass system. :D
Click to expand...

Leave it to you, to focus on the envy angle. :rolleyes: :notreally:

My take-away, is something I've been railing about for years (not to pat myself on the back): the inherent bias, with so-called blind testing.

Yes...audio is fraught with bias and psycho-acoustics (the emphasis, being on psycho?). What I think this article does a very good job of illuminating is a) so does pretty much everything, within the human condition; and b) these blind tests, have their own...different set of bias.

The very moment you say "hi...would you like to participate in this test"; you invoke a certain bias in your test subject (it's been a while, since I took my basic Psychology...but aren't truly "blind" tests; done without the subjects knowing they're being tested? Like by observation?).

The true agenda, IMO...of the so-called objectivists is: if you can't hear the difference (under test conditions), why spend more. And yes...maybe this is where there is an "envy", or begrudging; that the answer may be...because someone can (afford to). But my answer is...because to do otherwise, is not typically how the world works.

Sure...there are plenty of things, we bargain-shop; where we don't care, about the difference between A and B...so we simply choose the least-expensive option. But we don't do that with clothes (cheapest shirt that protects my skin from the elements), or food (eat the least-expensive thing, that gives us sustenance and life); cars (the most frugal...ok, you get the point :P)...and (m)any number of other pursuits.

So maybe the answer...as to why we spend more; perhaps...no certainly, more than we have to. And that's a point worth making. I doubt there's anyone reading this, who would deny they could live...with a lesser system than what they have. Hell...give me $2k, I'd put together the most kick-a$$ system, $2k would allow. $1k...I could certainly sit and enjoy music, with a system in that range. I could...and have, when times called for it; listened to my $250 Squeezebox Radio :disbelief:

So...the answer; as to why we do, what we do. Spend more, than the bare minimum to produce enjoyable sound...is that we want to; that we like it. Like audio. Just as the article says...I have a certain budget I'm comfortable in; and that's not a constant either. Budget might go up, or down; and not even necessarily based on my overall financial health.

But the point is...I don't begrudge anyone their higher budget, and kit; nor...look down on anyone's lower means, or gear. I've just never seen an article, that quite articulated these suppositions as well.
 
It was a good article and you can spend all your money on gear if you want it doesn't matter to me.I've been told on other audio forums that my vintage gear is so inferior but I don't have golden ears and it sounds great to me. To which they replied,"you have to train your ears to listen for subtle differences".I wanna enjoy the music not go through training, that sounds like to much work to me.My motto is if sounds good to you then it is good.I don't worry about what the other guy thinks.And if it doesn't sound good to you then spend your money until you are happy with the sound,I don't have a problem with that.
 
Great article !

Envy..............I think that's the biggest reason people bash gear swappers.
I think all of us suffer from envy to some point, I try hard not too, but I don't always succeed.
 
Mike seems quite defensive about the AudioQuest Network Cable review he gave a couple of years ago. I purchased the AQ Diamond Ethernet cable. No difference at all. Goes down as one of the "worst purchases". It wasn't that it was a "bad" product, its just that there was simply no sonic difference between that and a stock Cat6 cable.

I think there is a reason why we haven't seen any other major cable manufacturer try this.
 
This stuff makes our hobby interesting. There's always something to talk about, isn't it? :rolleyes:
 
MDP said:
Great article !

Envy..............I think that's the biggest reason people bash gear swappers.
I think all of us suffer from envy to some point, I try hard not too, but I don't always succeed.
Click to expand...

I agree on the point about gear swappers, as that is what I was thinking of while reading the article, even though I'm more of a buy-and-hold guy. I think the author nailed it when he said even self-proclaimed objectivists are really subjectivists, otherwise they would all be spending about the same amount of money on the same gear. The fact that they don't says it all. I don't quite get the angst over DBX and what have you. Some of my buddies have gear that I wouldn't have spent 10% of what they did for it, and I'm certain the converse is true. Yet we manage to enjoy music in each other's listening rooms. At the end of the day, if you are not enjoying your own experience because of how other's approach the hobby, then that is unfortunate.
 
Interesting read indeed.
I don’t believe in “golden ears”. We all hear differently whether it be by design, malady, training, what have you. When someone tells me how great some piece of gear sounds or whatever and says it like everyone will hear the same thing and hold the same opinion, I do not believe them. In other words, I don’t believe or give attention to what they say in regards to what I myself might hear. It could sound awful to me or it could stun me with feelings of nirvana. I would not know until I heard it. I don’t think any audiophile or non-audiophile music lover (to include myself) would purchase a pair of speakers without an audition of some sort, especially if we understood even the basics of hearing.
So, I agree with Mr. Fremer, that you don’t need state of the art ears since there is no such thing as those or perfect to enjoy hi-fi and know what you are hearing. All it takes is practice of really listening with full attention. I’m a musician (or one could say former musician since it’s been a number of years since I played), but I have also had jobs in the industry that required me to train and listen. Do I have “golden ears”? Absolutely not! I have very good hearing for my time of life, but part of that is not only from taking care of my ears and training, but over-compensation for the malady of very poor eyesight, just a natural function of the human body and my hearing will deteriorate just as anyone else’s as I get older, maybe at a slightly slower rate, but it will still happen. We also, all of us have bias one way or another when we listen, so that must be factored in as well.

As for blind tests: If set up correctly, they can be of value to those participating in them. My take is that they are of little to no value to those reading about them who did not participate. Just my worthless opinion.

As for gear envy: I don’t suffer from that these days (I did back in the early 70s though). Sure, there are a few pieces out there that I find pretty and such, but I can’t and will never afford them, so what would be the point of envy? I don’t like listening to gear anyway, I’m a music lover, so what would be the point in being envious of gear or someone who has it?
I’ve read about folks that have $200k systems and $500 systems and the one thing in common is that both enjoy what they hear equally. To me, that is the one most important thing. Even Michael Fremer who owns a $60k turntable finds enjoyment in a $150 turntable if it’s built right judging by his reviews and articles. He really doesn’t care if one has a mega-buck system or a humble one, as long as it’s set up correctly and you are enjoying the music, then you’ve got it.

I see systems here on AS that cost more than I’ll make in my lifetime or fairly close, but it is what it is. It doesn’t mean that I don’t or can’t enjoy my music as much or any less because I don’t have a mega-buck system. I’ve even read stories from audiophiles that were blown away by other’s systems that were a fraction of the cost leaving them scratching their heads. How many of those stories are fully true? I don’t know, but the unchanging fact is that it can happen. It’s really all about synergy. The right combo of gear regardless of cost, syncing with the room and the listener and the state of the media or source.

As for those who swap gear and the rest of us being envious. My take is one of appreciation in a sense. Those who swap gear are kind of doing a service for those of us who can’t by reporting how said gear functioned in itself and with their particular system in their room. What I like to focus on is just how the piece functioned in and of itself and if it lived up to the claims and did its job. Everything else is frivolous to me personally because of the variable factors such as upstream gear, room and the listener’s ears. Sure, my only wish is that the gear being swapped and such was not always the mega-buck stuff non-audiophiles could not even dream of saving for, but for what is swapped and reported I can see it saves some wondering and research (if one is in market for said piece). Let’s face it, it’s a damn sight better than reviews on say, Amazon from disgruntled consumers who did not understand what they purchased.

All that is just my take on things and I could be wrong enough to be on the planet mars, your version will be entirely different, expectedly.

~Eric
 
Well if anyone can discuss this reasonably it's you guys. There is another forum I have been thinking of joining that has just gone off the rails on the whole subjective vs objective scrap. Just crazy.

So here's my very limited take on it. Enjoy both! You really don't have to take sides. I'm not religious but I respect communities that worship, my politics lean to the left but my best friend is a card carrying Conservative, etc. It's all good. Life would be a dull dull place if we all had the same government issued amps.

I'm an IT guy. I want to understand the data and the science. After reading the mags for a few years I thought I had to spend a lot of money on cables to get a good sound. I now know that isn't true. So I try to be aware of the power of marketing and advertising. It's influence is extraordinary. But does that mean I can't get excited by design? Get swept away by the atmosphere that tubes create? No way.

Enjoy it all in this hobby. It's all adds to the music, in my mind. And if you're starting to feel jaded by it all then get out to a good concert hall or club sound system and experience it all over again.
 
I live thru reading about other peoples great systems and individual pcs of gear that I also will most likely ever own. I have had the chance to hear and enjoy $200K systems and sometimes wish I had the extra cash to just spend on anything, but that's not my life. I am not jealous or envious, but rather intrigued by all the swapping and high priced gear when we factor in the diminishing returns. As I have said many times, a $40,000 amplifier does not perform or sound 40,000 times better than my $1000 Stratos amp, but yes they do sound better. The largest sum of money I ever spent in this hobby was the $2700 I paid for my Dynaudio speakers new. Everyone I knew thought I was nutso until they heard them. I most likely would not have the $20k (retail in the 90s) system I have now if I didn't luck into it all for next to nothing. But, I am gearing up for a few years from now when I downsize. I plan to shed almost all the gear I have now and purchase 1 nice killer setup under $20k.

Someone earlier talked about liking his Vintage gear better. I can appreciate that since much quality and Quality Control is lacking as the years go by. But at the same time, over at AK where he joined us from is a whole clique of Vintage guys who repeatedly talk down to those with modern or higher end gear than their 1947 Sansui Recievers. Most of these guys have probably never even heard a well put together modern setup in the right room but somehow feel they have the authority to tell others they are wrong.

It's all relative to ones enjoyment, income, extra cash, and priorities. When I was first getting into audio at 17, I would spend lots of time at Soundex listening to great systems and dreaming. I would watch guys come in one day and plunk down $22K for an Oracle Turntable. I would be there 2 weeks later where the same guy was trading the turntable in for a loss and buying the $30K model without blinking or caring that they just threw away thousands of dollars. Myself, I try to do all the free and cheap tweaks that I find helpful.

Overall the article was a good read and I have heard those quotes many times on lots of message boards over the years.
 
This kind of conversation makes me damn proud to be a member here.

Very good discourse, and no one is throwing anybody under the bus because of their opinion !
 
Mike said:
Mike seems quite defensive about the AudioQuest Network Cable review he gave a couple of years ago. I purchased the AQ Diamond Ethernet cable. No difference at all. Goes down as one of the "worst purchases". It wasn't that it was a "bad" product, its just that there was simply no sonic difference between that and a stock Cat6 cable.

I think there is a reason why we haven't seen any other major cable manufacturer try this.
Click to expand...

I suspect, but don't know, that the network topology, and gear used could be the determining factor in whether or not an Ethernet cable can make a difference. Probably in the overall majority of layouts it really doesn't matter, but I will never say never, and will concede there might be a situation where it does matter. However, I suspect a good CAT6 or CAT7 will be pretty darn close to the AudioQuest cable.

A hypothetical scenario where it could matter would be streaming from a NAS to a DAC that connects via Ethernet. Since what is being transmitted over the Ethernet cable is an analog signal that needs to be reconverted into digital at the receiver then a poor cable could attenuate the signal enough so that jitter gets introduced at the conversion. While the CRC will be correct, the jitter will affect the sound. Then a better cable could sound different. As mentioned, this is just an untested and unverified hypothesis.
 
I couldn’t agree more Brian. Yeah, the whole vintage vs modern arguments on that other site I fail to understand except from an emotional standpoint perhaps and what I understand in that is either envy, jealousy or self-delusion.
Instead of admitting that it is what it is and that it’s nice, but can’t afford it (if looking at the high-end stuff) or even need it, they go into this whole delusion about how modern or higher-end gear could not possibly sound good. These are often the same folks that also will not pay for or even attempt save up for what they need either, no matter the price tag, even if it’s $5. They are quick to put down anything they don’t use or own, calling it inferior.

I have a vintage system and a modern one. Both have advantages and disadvantages and both sound good, but different. Sure, the gear I have from the early 70s is built like a brick chicken house and quality control was better back then with most of it being built in the US or Japan. However, some of the modern gear I have is of very high quality that is likely to keep going after I’m gone such as my phono preamp, turntable, and possibly my speakers.

It’s all about synergy between the gear, the room and the listener.

Absolutely, sometimes the least spendy tweaks can have huge impact on sound. Those are the ones I like and can do.
I have come to the conclusion as I go that there is no one standard of what this hobby is about as it has many aspects. I think it is about something different to each of us. For some it’s about the gear, for others it’s about the music (I fit in that category), for others it’s about the engineering, others about tests, others about collecting, others about the artwork on LPs and on and on. All those things work collectively at a certain point to make the whole.

~Eric
 
BlueFox said:
I suspect, but don't know, that the network topology, and gear used could be the determining factor in whether or not an Ethernet cable can make a difference. Probably in the overall majority of layouts it really doesn't matter, but I will never say never, and will concede there might be a situation where it does matter. However, I suspect a good CAT6 or CAT7 will be pretty darn close to the AudioQuest cable.

A hypothetical scenario where it could matter would be streaming from a NAS to a DAC that connects via Ethernet. Since what is being transmitted over the Ethernet cable is an analog signal that needs to be reconverted into digital at the receiver then a poor cable could attenuate the signal enough so that jitter gets introduced at the conversion. While the CRC will be correct, the jitter will affect the sound. Then a better cable could sound different. As mentioned, this is just an untested and unverified hypothesis.
Click to expand...

Please; don't yell at me. I didn't make this illustration, nor does it mean I advocate it!

I am merely the facilitator ;)

 
MusicDirector said:
I couldn’t agree more Brian. Yeah, the whole vintage vs modern arguments on that other site I fail to understand except from an emotional standpoint perhaps and what I understand in that is either envy, jealousy or self-delusion.
Instead of admitting that it is what it is and that it’s nice, but can’t afford it (if looking at the high-end stuff) or even need it, they go into this whole delusion about how modern or higher-end gear could not possibly sound good. These are often the same folks that also will not pay for or even attempt save up for what they need either, no matter the price tag, even if it’s $5. They are quick to put down anything they don’t use or own, calling it inferior.
Click to expand...

I'm a member of AK and that's not true.The vintage camp over there says vintage can sound as good as modern to a point. Alot of us feel high end isn't worth the high prices for slight improvements in sound quality.And where did you come up with the $5 figure? We are quick to put down Magic Pebbles or $1000 cables or other snake oil yes I'll give you that.We are a middle class working mans site so we aren't quick to part with are money.We don't want to start down the endless upgrade path for smaller and smaller improvements for more and more money.And there are many like me who are collectors of vintage gear and appreciate the beauty and quality of it, not just it's great sound.
 
just dave said:
I'm a member of AK and that's not true.The vintage camp over there says vintage can sound as good as modern to a point. Alot of us feel high end isn't worth the high prices for slight improvements in sound quality.And where did you come up with the $5 figure? We are quick to put down Magic Pebbles or $1000 cables or other snake oil yes I'll give you that.We are a middle class working mans site so we aren't quick to part with are money.We don't want to start down the endless upgrade path for smaller and smaller improvements for more and more money.And there are many like me who are collectors of vintage gear and appreciate the beauty and quality of it, not just it's great sound.
Click to expand...

I have to say Dave, that I have read some of those types of posts you describe as well. I think what gets me is the fanatical ones, not the everyday joe ones, not at all and I agree that vintage gear can sound as nice as modern gear. That's my bad, for not specifying, sorry.
I've sent myself running out of the room by playing a bad recording on both my systems a few times, so it works both ways.
It's all synergy. I'm rather fond of my vintage gear equal with my modern. In fact, I run a legacy TT (about 24 years old) in my modern system. I used the $5 figure as an extreme to make a point. I know it's not quite that bad in most cases.
I agree that it is not worth anything to pay big bucks for barely subtle improvements, never a good idea. I'm slightly lower than Middle class and I don't pursue the elusive perfect sound, so I know what your saying.

I have a vintage system for the same reasons, the beauty and quality of it. Mine is 40 years old and still going strong, that speaks volumes. However, I will also add that I feel fortunate to have what I have of both my vintage system (which I acquired before the market in my area dried up nearly completely( and for what I have in my modern system through much hard work and saving. The speakers alone took two years of saving and scrimping and were the priciest item, but were also the biggest improvement I made. I have nothing even remotely near any of the systems here, but what I have serves me and allows me to enjoy the music.
 
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