Randy, are you finding T+A pcm is better than the others, or the dsd is its strong point.
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Randy, are you finding T+A pcm is better than the others, or the dsd is its strong point.
Hey Rex,
T+A is known for its DSD, however the PCM they do is great. 99% of the time I listen to DSD because I normally use HQPlayer. However the occasional times I switch to Roon straight PCM sounds great. They use Texas Instrument chips (formerly BurrBrown) for PCM and their own 1-bit processors for DSD.
What I can tell you is that when Jon did the review for Stereophile he did not listen to DSD at all, only PCM. He still gave it his absolutely top rating. I know this for a fact because Jon does not have DSD capability at his home. His server can only do PCM :).
I have not finished reading the new review in TAS yet but I do know, from what I have read so far, is that they are going fairly in depth as to how the machine works in both PCM and DSD.
BurrBrown are old chips. They were in my last dac. Must be something other than the chip making the magic.
What level of DAC is John comparing it too. I guess I have to read. Sometimes these reviews bother me. A guy with a sonore rendu will get a hold of a real this or that and owe god the heavens open up. Its generally not a reviewer with a Mojo Audio V5, DCS stack, Aquaformula, MSB making the comparison. Of course they come to a ground breaking conclusion.
Im not bashing T+A. I just question the "whole" story. I mostly hear good comments on T+A . I bet its top notch.
I am out of my realm of knowledge on specifics, however I do know that Texas Instruments does currently produce updated chips. I believe that T+A uses the PCM1795, which is designed specially for PCM. I mentioned BurrBrown because the review mentioned that TI used to produce chips under the BurrBrown name, but no longer does.
I do know from all the DACs I compared/went through that BurrBrown were some of the nicest sounding, most inviting of the pre-fabbed chips that I have heard, in my view anyway. I have owned several variations of the ESS chips up to the 9038, Cirrus Logic, AKM, etc. I preferred the sound of the BurrBrown. It was more musical in my view versus say the ESS which was highly detailed, again to my ears.
Of course implementation does certainly factor in :)...
Jon owns a Benchmark for his personal use. I have owned a couple Benchmarks including their current top of the line. Detailed to the extreme, but in my view maybe a bit too much so. My issue with Benchmark is they were against DSD and therefore offered only DSD64 even though the chips used could work for much higher levels. Of course Jon has tried many others, doing DAC shoot outs at his home, etc. By the way, I only mentioned Jon because he is a friend and I have been to his house on a few occasions. Also because he loved the T+A even though he did not use its top capabilities, and he did write a steller review for Stereophile.
The BurrBrown 1795 is an older DAC chip, which was also used in their initial HV line-up. In their newer SD/ SDP 3100 HV T+A are using a chip with higher processing capability (up to DSD 1024).
The DAC chip itself does actually not make the sound of a DAC, it’s rather how it is implemented. The same chip in a different manufacturers product can sound quite different. In lower end platforms, however, where the DAC chip does most of the work without a separate FPGA added on, the sound is more similar.
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The TI chips are only used for PCM. They developed their own 1-bit processor for DSD. PCM and DSD go through completely separate circuits in all T+A DACs.
The review from Robert Harley is indeed very positive (as was his review of the old SACD player PDP 3000 HV) and is headlined the Pinnacle. Harley goes as far as calling the combo reasonably priced at 60 k USD which is a bit of a stretch IMO.
I believe the streamer/DAC would be a far more complete system had it included a hard drive and computer power to store and decode the large DSD files, thereby avoiding the need for a laptop connected to the USB port (and the sound degration that comes with the USB, however small). It is possible that technical reasons like cooling issues prevents this. (I made the point to the T+A technical department and they politely said they would consider it ;))
Anyway, untill I win the lottery all a bit academical and I am still very happy with the HV Integrated and SACD player!
Soren
I really like my T+A DAC. These pieces are amazing but I would have a very hard time justifying it even if I could afford the $60k price tag. I would think the SD 3100HV would be worthy of consideration for someone looking for just a DAC and not needing the built in Pre-amp functions or an over the top spinner.
I know it is better, but I do not think the rest of my gear is good enough to appreciate how spectacular this is. However my T+A DAC is definitely a keeper!
I finished the review. I am going to summarize with what I got out of the review. This is not a verbatim recant or including quotes.
Fit and finish and ease of use. He basically said it was top notch and that it was as well built and user friendly as any piece he has reviewed.
Analog section on the SDV. He stated he was afraid to try running his $100k+ vinyl setup through the T+A Analog rather then his high end line stage. He tried it anyway and was blown away. He basically said he could not hear any degradation what so ever!
CD playback, by far the best CD playback he has ever heard! The same with SACD.
PCM playback. Approaching the best of the best in the world.
DSD playback. The pinnacle, best he has ever heard, period... full stop. Best DSD playback in the world is what I gathered from his raving review!!!
This is my summary of the review. You may get a different understanding after reading it for yourself. I think that everyone will agree he was completely overwhelmed and impressed by these T+A components!
Good summary. Thanks Randy. The DSD is so superb because it’s a completely separate section of the DAC (separate power cable, separate XLR cables, separate everything). It’s a true “pure” DSD playback. Of course those not caring about DSD other than the occasional time can select PCM/DSD instead of PCM + DSD.
I was cleaning for the holidays and out went piles of magazines. Included was my latest TAS so I dont get to read the article.
Congrats though Randy. Its nice to have a product you really like, with validation the performance is what you hear. I wish I bought the used amp 8 i found for $1,200 a while back. I want to try some SS at one point.
Yea, that would have been an amazing deal. I have never seen one below about $2200. It deserves way more than that. I think normal price is $3200-$3500. Mike will have to confirm that.
If I were ever to put mine up for sale I would need to get about $2000. That would be low, only because of brand recognition in the US. I also think this may be changing. There have been a plethora of outstanding reviews lately on T+A products!
T+A must feel that the products can compete with the likes of MSB and others in that category, and price accordingly. If money doesnt matter then thats fine, for the rest of us the smart choice is to go for the MP 3100 HV for example, a super SACD player with DAC @ 1/3 of the price.
Please keep in mind, price is not really an indicator for SQ. Manufacturers are free to price their products as they see fit, independent of what the products actually are capable of.
In the Stereophile review the DAC 8 DSD was compared to similarly or little lower priced DACs, like the Ayre Codex, which seems fair.
But my question would be, that if the DAC 8 DSD uses a similar DAC circuitry than previous generation HV components, what have users then been paying 4-5 times the money for in the MP 3000 HV or PDP 3000 HV. The heavy casework, the power management, the disc spinner? Those are things that affect the sound significantly, but 4-5 times the money is a tall order IMHO.
The newer HV series now use DAC chips with higher specs, but also the price has skyrocketed.
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All very true, of course. However a couple things to keep in mind. The reviewer in Stereophile did not even attempt to evaluate the DAC 8 DSD in its fullest capability (i.e.DSD) because he could not. He mentioned this in the review actually. He stills gives it an A+ rating.
One of the huge differences is that T+A developed their own DSD 1-bit converters and therefore makes it easier to bring this tech down to their more affordable models (in my view and by what they claim). Also, reading TAS's review he puts their new DAC right up there with the best of the best... and reading between the lines I would state that he believes it may very well be the best digital setup in the world.
Its a $4500 DAC, but what does that have to do with anything. Its a good machine, in my view better than anything in that range. The TAS review, what was being referenced above, is a much more expensive piece. The two machines that the review was about are $60k. I did not imply that my DAC was on that level. If that is what it seemed I assure you it is not :)...
quiet a steep price difference europe vs us
if you beg a little you get the sd3100 (without pre) for 20k chf in switzerland, brinkmann nyquist2 for about 12k chf.
still enough, dont get me wrong.
i did read in another review the 3100hv is not really complete in the bass. not much impact was mentioned
Of course there is a lot of room to improve :). I love my DAC but it is no where near the best of the best. In my view it is what I consider the best in its range.
I am sorry if I was confusing, here is what I meant by what I wrote;
Stereophile: DAC 8 DSD ($4500)
"The reviewer in Stereophile did not even attempt to evaluate the DAC 8 DSD in its fullest capability (i.e.DSD) because he could not. He mentioned this in the review actually. He stills gives it an A+ rating."
The Absolute Sound: SDV 3100HV + PDT 3100HV ($60,000)
"reading TAS's review he puts their new DAC right up there with the best of the best... and reading between the lines I would state that he believes it may very well be the best digital setup in the world."
randy, wish you a great 3100er dac for 2020!!:)
at a usd 30.5k msrp price difference, it would certainly be an interesting A/B test to hear the dac8 dsd side-by-side with the dv 3100hv in the same system.
my expectations of the SQ difference would be quite high !!
Hello u-sound, I own a MP3100hv. I don't find the item lacking in bass. For that matter, I've read other reviews that said quite the opposite. I'd like to read that review. Would you kindly tell me the publication, and I'll try to find it? I'm not "brandwashed" ( my new term for people who will buy anything from a specific brand)I'd like to see the the other components in the test and any other gear they used for any comparison. Thank you!!!
hi penthouse
well, it wasnt theyr press release:)
it would be a bit too much for me right now to search it. i know i should.
it wasnt really described as a lack of bass, that was my very own translation.
maybe overall it shines more microdynamicly than macrowise
Understood. Thank you. The reason I asked is because when I first got the pair, I was a tad underwhelmed. I read every review I could find and don't remember that comment. Actually, quite the contrary. After a longer than normal break-in period, I'm thrilled!!!
I have heard, and know from their lower models, T+A takes considerable break-in.
Thanks. I too am guilty of being "brandwashed". Primarily with cars though. I think one needs to be careful . Many brands have been sold over and over. Very often, they aren't representative of the original quality, theory, and goals of the original "brand"....
Me too. With guitars, amps, banjos, and mandolins, recording gear, and yes...cars. Not so much anymore. But I've been a brand washed fanboy of various things at one time or another. I eventually found I was only cheating myself. I now try to be more open minded about things.
I have to admit to a little brain washing.... emmmm I mean brand preferences :D.... In computers I will own nothing but a Falcon; they don't offer tablets so the Surface is excluded :)... I strongly prefer Mercedes Benz, KEF speakers although other British speakers such as B&W (I do have B&W speakers on our computers by the way) would probably be ok, and I can't help it, I have had McIntosh on the brain (ok, call that one brain washing) ever since jumping back in...
What can I say, I like what I like :)... psssst.... T+A is definitely one that would fit the bill also, I just can't afford their higher line products.
https://www.hifinews.com/content/ta-...portdac-page-2
.....OK, at times it may not offer the very last word in sheer bite and impact......
and the verdict:
Towering in every sense, this T+A digital pairing is both a massive engineering achievement and a fabulously refined way to bring together the two worlds of physical media and file-based/streaming music. It's as future-proofed as you might hope for, and while not exactly red in tooth and claw, it transcends mere sonic fireworks by reproducing the most bombastic musical events with unmistakable style
i understood this a little as it could miss the bing bang
HifiNews reviews of the T+A Products have lately been carried out by Andrew Everard who likes the stuff without being overwhelmed. Andrew usually scores lower than the reviews by the late John Bamford for comparable products. He calls is the way he sees it, and I like the way he writes even if I love T+A more than he does. As always, go and check it out for yourself!
Amazing pieces indeed, thinking of going for a PDP-3000 with P-3000 myself, I love organic sound and deep soundstage over the last spec of detail...so from what I read here they would suit me better then the 3100 transport and dac/pre combi for less money...
I noticed you had an Audio Research REF10 preamp in your system also Mike, how would you compare this soundwise to the T+A P3000HV?
I had a ref40 myself and loved the huge, relax and organic soundstage, but maybe getting a player/dac and pre from the same brand makes more sense? My amps are Rowland 725s...
I am new to the T+A line, and just listened to the new one box CD/SACD/media player. Very detailed and reminds me of an equivalently priced Esoteric.
Haven't heard their separate CD transport and DAC/media player but intrigued. Wondering if anyone who have heard them and also the MSB separates can share how alike or differently they sound?
Regards
@CPP I love this dictum, while true...an established player ( whatever that is?) can make a great guitar sound a whole lot better than a cheap guitar!! :scholar:
The PDP-3000 is discontinued, you will have to search for demos or used if you want one. Its a great sounding player and you will not regret it, I use mine as both CD/SACD player and as a DAC.
The player is expensive but at less than half the price of the new combo its a relative bargain :cool:
2 years ago, Bryan Sutton was at a music festival and a guy asked him to check out his Jasmine S35, ($100) a low priced acoustic guitar. Well, we all were surprised when after asking the kid if he could change his strings, since the strings were just to much of a heavy gauge and after tuning it, started playing Coming Down From Rising Fawn", and bingo the cheap little guitar was singing.