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  1. #1
    Senior Member
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    REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    My great experiences with REL for 2-channel and home-theater is more than a bit dated given ownership of B1 Britannia(s) preceded by Stadium and Stentor.

    Other than what I've found online in terms of the obvious "RTFM" differences in low-frequency specs., amplification differences and WiFi (No. 25 and 212SE),
    what would those of you with experience with these 3 models have to say about the No. 25, G1 and 212SE performance for a full-range 2-channel only
    setup that is used to play everything from pipe organ, taiko drumming, jazz, classical, new age, fusion, R&B, Techno, Rock, Prog-Rock, etc...i.e. the
    full spectrum sans Rap and Country? Speakers and system overall are in my signature and posted elsewhere on this forum.

    How close in particular is the performance of the 212SE to the No. 25 for 2-channel listening only?

    Does the use of the classic REL Class AB amplification (which I always loved in my B1 and prior models) give a more musical response than their
    newer Class D designs and is it worth grabbing a G1 for my purposes and living without LongBow/WiFi?

    There are also a couple of 9/10 condition B1 Britannia still available out there; that sub excelled (at least for me and my system at the time) at
    2-channel as well as standing tall in a HT installation. I'm tempted to grab the B1(or plural) and go with what worked well for me before but I
    do see differences in the latest offerings that has my attention. The 13 Hz +/- 6db spec and real-life performance of the B1 was a hard act
    to follow so I'm looking to make the best choice possible to firmly tap the region of sub-bass from 21-23 Hz on down to pipe organ and synth
    foundation frequencies....

    ***I have always loved the high-level 100K ohm input method REL pioneered and think it is superior for 2-channel blending.
    Many others favor low/line-level input subs with DRO and other forms of digital integration (Velodyne, JL, etc...). Not meaning
    to start a philosophical or audio-religious bonfire here, but to all of your minds and ears out there,....does REL still stand up
    as one of the best in 2-channel subwoofer integration and musical quality? Any other brands I should be considering?

    Thanks in advance for the help!
    Legacy Audio VALOR, Legacy Audio i.V4 ULTRA 4ch amp, Legacy Wavelet with HDPlex 200W LPSU & Revelation Audio Labs Passage Cryo-Silver DC Umbilical, Esoteric P-02, D-02, Legacy i.V4 ULTRA, Cybershaft Premium Limited Type2 OP21A 10 MHz Clock, SHUNYATA TRITON v3 & TYPHON QR, Avatar Acoustics AfterBurner8 duplexes, Elrod MASTER SERIES Statement Gold Power cords, Elrod Statement Gold Power cord,, Elrod Statement Gold XLR, Elrod Diamond XLR, Shunyata SIGMA AES/EBU 110ohm, Shunyata SIGMA CLOCK-50, Shunyata SIGMA XLR, Shunyata Anaconda Zitron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables x 2, Adona AV45CS4, AV45, Composite Audio CF-2010, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases


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  2. #2
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    IMHO, I would go No. 25 or 212SE. No. 25 is on my short list.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, TechDAS/AirForce Turntables, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  3. #3
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I saw a photo of the new REL 25 in the new TAS yesterday. Nice looking.
    Jim

    D'Agostino Momentum M-400's & HD Pre-amp
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  4. #4
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    IMHO, I would go No. 25 or 212SE. No. 25 is on my short list.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thanks....can you let me know your reasons for these over the G1 Mk2 for 2-channel?
    Legacy Audio VALOR, Legacy Audio i.V4 ULTRA 4ch amp, Legacy Wavelet with HDPlex 200W LPSU & Revelation Audio Labs Passage Cryo-Silver DC Umbilical, Esoteric P-02, D-02, Legacy i.V4 ULTRA, Cybershaft Premium Limited Type2 OP21A 10 MHz Clock, SHUNYATA TRITON v3 & TYPHON QR, Avatar Acoustics AfterBurner8 duplexes, Elrod MASTER SERIES Statement Gold Power cords, Elrod Statement Gold Power cord,, Elrod Statement Gold XLR, Elrod Diamond XLR, Shunyata SIGMA AES/EBU 110ohm, Shunyata SIGMA CLOCK-50, Shunyata SIGMA XLR, Shunyata Anaconda Zitron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables x 2, Adona AV45CS4, AV45, Composite Audio CF-2010, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases


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  5. #5
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by SCAudiophile View Post
    Thanks....can you let me know your reasons for these over the G1 Mk2 for 2-channel?
    The No. 25 offers a faster Class D amp, and for subs, thatís my preference.

    When I tried to integrate the G1 mk2 with the fast Magicoís, it was difficult.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Audio Research, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Ayre Acoustics, Berkeley Audio Design, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, EMM Labs, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Gryphon Audio, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stenheim Loudspeakers, Stillpoints, T+A Electronics, TechDAS/AirForce Turntables, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  6. #6
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I have the 212 SEs here in my demo room in the Atlanta area. Can't imagine better performance. Well I CAN imagine it, but I haven't heard it, nor have the RoomPlay Reference visitors who've heard the 212 SEs.

    I have not heard the Magico subs, however.
    Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet filter w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; AQ Diamond USB; Duelund USB; Curious USB; PS Audio LanRover; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Audioquest Diamond ethernet; Audioquest Diamond AES - 3M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex - updated; Topping D-90; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amplifier; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamplifier, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Wyred 4 Sound STP-750E Mk II amplifier w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amplifiers w/Gold Lion KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Symposium Speaker Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

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  7. #7
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The No. 25 offers a faster Class D amp, and for subs, thatís my preference.

    When I tried to integrate the G1 mk2 with the fast Magicoís, it was difficult.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Thank you for this,....I'm on the road tomorrow all day down to the Atlanta area. I'll give you a call to talk more in-depth towards end of the week!
    Looks like the same generation of amp design that is in the No. 25 also made it into the 212SE....the big difference seems to be power handling
    and low frequency spec. (+/- 6db at 14 Hz versus 19 Hz respectively).

    I heard a set of M3s last week when I was up north paired with a Magico Q-Subs...quite nice overall but frankly even though the blending was
    done meticulously for the speakers and the room, I turned the Q-Sub off after about an hour and spent the next 2+ hours much happier surprisingly
    enough. The M3s have a bottom register that is very impressive...
    Legacy Audio VALOR, Legacy Audio i.V4 ULTRA 4ch amp, Legacy Wavelet with HDPlex 200W LPSU & Revelation Audio Labs Passage Cryo-Silver DC Umbilical, Esoteric P-02, D-02, Legacy i.V4 ULTRA, Cybershaft Premium Limited Type2 OP21A 10 MHz Clock, SHUNYATA TRITON v3 & TYPHON QR, Avatar Acoustics AfterBurner8 duplexes, Elrod MASTER SERIES Statement Gold Power cords, Elrod Statement Gold Power cord,, Elrod Statement Gold XLR, Elrod Diamond XLR, Shunyata SIGMA AES/EBU 110ohm, Shunyata SIGMA CLOCK-50, Shunyata SIGMA XLR, Shunyata Anaconda Zitron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables x 2, Adona AV45CS4, AV45, Composite Audio CF-2010, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases


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  8. #8
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    I have the 212 SEs here in my demo room in the Atlanta area. Can't imagine better performance. Well I CAN imagine it, but I haven't heard it, nor have the RoomPlay Reference visitors who've heard the 212 SEs.

    I have not heard the Magico subs, however.
    Jim,

    Thank you! Your reputation for speaker integration, room-tuning, placement, etc...is well known. I may ask you to come by and render your opinion at some point in the future for this house or for the next house likely to be built next year if we can pull off a move we have in mind up north into the NC mountains.

    FWIW...I heard a set of Magico M3s last week when I was up north paired with a Magico Q-Subs...quite nice overall but frankly even though the blending was
    done meticulously for the speakers and the room, I turned the Q-Sub off after about an hour and spent the next 2+ hours much happier surprisingly
    enough. The M3s have a bottom register that is very impressive...The Q-Sub was a fine unit, no complaints,...something about the M3s said 'play
    me without a subwoofer!'...
    Legacy Audio VALOR, Legacy Audio i.V4 ULTRA 4ch amp, Legacy Wavelet with HDPlex 200W LPSU & Revelation Audio Labs Passage Cryo-Silver DC Umbilical, Esoteric P-02, D-02, Legacy i.V4 ULTRA, Cybershaft Premium Limited Type2 OP21A 10 MHz Clock, SHUNYATA TRITON v3 & TYPHON QR, Avatar Acoustics AfterBurner8 duplexes, Elrod MASTER SERIES Statement Gold Power cords, Elrod Statement Gold Power cord,, Elrod Statement Gold XLR, Elrod Diamond XLR, Shunyata SIGMA AES/EBU 110ohm, Shunyata SIGMA CLOCK-50, Shunyata SIGMA XLR, Shunyata Anaconda Zitron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables x 2, Adona AV45CS4, AV45, Composite Audio CF-2010, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases


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  9. #9

    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I have two G1's with my magicos and it seems to depend on the type of music I play. with more modern music ie hip hop, pop, alternative, & electronic they are dialed in well. when i play jazz and classical I have to retune them.
    burmester 088/911, rega rp6, sumiko blackbird, magio S3, rel g1's, rogers pa1a, nos telefunkens, wireworld plat. ic, sc
    chord dave, microrendu, uptone lps 1

  10. #10
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by drabbish View Post
    I have two G1's with my magicos and it seems to depend on the type of music I play. with more modern music ie hip hop, pop, alternative, & electronic they are dialed in well. when i play jazz and classical I have to retune them.
    Thank you very much...
    Legacy Audio VALOR, Legacy Audio i.V4 ULTRA 4ch amp, Legacy Wavelet with HDPlex 200W LPSU & Revelation Audio Labs Passage Cryo-Silver DC Umbilical, Esoteric P-02, D-02, Legacy i.V4 ULTRA, Cybershaft Premium Limited Type2 OP21A 10 MHz Clock, SHUNYATA TRITON v3 & TYPHON QR, Avatar Acoustics AfterBurner8 duplexes, Elrod MASTER SERIES Statement Gold Power cords, Elrod Statement Gold Power cord,, Elrod Statement Gold XLR, Elrod Diamond XLR, Shunyata SIGMA AES/EBU 110ohm, Shunyata SIGMA CLOCK-50, Shunyata SIGMA XLR, Shunyata Anaconda Zitron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables x 2, Adona AV45CS4, AV45, Composite Audio CF-2010, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases


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  11. #11
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    There is so much that I could say, speaking from the experience of successfully voicing over 300 systems-with-subs to rooms, especially about the need (or not) to change the subs' settings for certain types of music.

    Perhaps this 7-part series on subwoofers from Copper e-mag will offer some insights for those who have the time & interest:


    Subwoofery: Trick Or Treat?


    http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwoofery-trick-or-treat/


    Subwoofery: Trick or Treat? - part 2

    http://www.psaudio.com/article/trick-or-treat/


    Wait A Minute!

    http://www.psaudio.com/article/wait-a-minute/


    Subwoofery: Smooth Operator?


    http://www.psaudio.com/article/smooth-operator/

    Subwoofery: Location, Location, Location


    http://www.psaudio.com/article/location-location-location/


    Subwoofery: The Basics

    http://www.psaudio.com/article/38363/


    Subwoofery: The Finale

    http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwoofery-the-finale/
    Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet filter w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; AQ Diamond USB; Duelund USB; Curious USB; PS Audio LanRover; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Audioquest Diamond ethernet; Audioquest Diamond AES - 3M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex - updated; Topping D-90; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amplifier; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamplifier, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Wyred 4 Sound STP-750E Mk II amplifier w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amplifiers w/Gold Lion KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Symposium Speaker Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

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  12. #12

    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    After reading some of the articles they are very informative. I not gonna lie but most of my settings are by ear. And I agree the the ďtasteĒ section. When I play modern music the bass is set to my liking. But with classical and jazz I have specific setting I dial in to my ďtasteĒ

  13. #13
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    IME & IMO, - and that's all it is - not presented as some absolute fact:

    If you have to adjust the subs for different types of music, you have a bit more work to do.

    Anytime that you are aware of them, there is still some integration to be done.

    I am referring to "full-range" speakers & subs, not satellites & subs.

    Often, it's because we forget that when we raise or lower the level slightly, we need to adjust the xover freq in the other direction. Otherwise, raising the sub volume level with RELs will always raise the xover frequency, same applies for reducing the sub volume level always lowering the xover freq.

    Of course, this applies more obviously when the first aspect of any set-up is achieved - locate the best listening position in the room (for smoothest bass) for the main speakers. In general, the speakers shouldn't get any meaningful adjustment until the anchor point (listening position) is located.
    Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet filter w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; AQ Diamond USB; Duelund USB; Curious USB; PS Audio LanRover; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Audioquest Diamond ethernet; Audioquest Diamond AES - 3M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex - updated; Topping D-90; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amplifier; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamplifier, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Wyred 4 Sound STP-750E Mk II amplifier w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amplifiers w/Gold Lion KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Symposium Speaker Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

    www.getbettersound.com

  14. #14
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I agree with Jim. It's been my experience also. Once setup a sub's settings should not need to be adjusted.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    IME & IMO, - and that's all it is - not presented as some absolute fact:

    If you have to adjust the subs for different types of music, you have a bit more work to do.

    Anytime that you are aware of them, there is still some integration to be done.

    I am referring to "full-range" speakers & subs, not satellites & subs.

    Often, it's because we forget that when we raise or lower the level slightly, we need to adjust the xover freq in the other direction. Otherwise, raising the sub volume level with RELs will always raise the xover frequency, same applies for reducing the sub volume level always lowering the xover freq.

    Of course, this applies more obviously when the first aspect of any set-up is achieved - locate the best listening position in the room (for smoothest bass) for the main speakers. In general, the speakers shouldn't get any meaningful adjustment until the anchor point (listening position) is located.
    Jock

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

    ---------

    House: Naim ND555/2PS, Naim 552, Naim 500, Studer A80/Doshi V3, Magico M2s, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Lumina IC/SC, Shunyata Everest and Omega PCs.

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  15. #15

    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by SCAudiophile View Post
    My great experiences with REL for 2-channel and home-theater is more than a bit dated given ownership of B1 Britannia(s) preceded by Stadium and Stentor.

    Other than what I've found online in terms of the obvious "RTFM" differences in low-frequency specs., amplification differences and WiFi (No. 25 and 212SE),
    what would those of you with experience with these 3 models have to say about the No. 25, G1 and 212SE performance for a full-range 2-channel only
    setup that is used to play everything from pipe organ, taiko drumming, jazz, classical, new age, fusion, R&B, Techno, Rock, Prog-Rock, etc...i.e. the
    full spectrum sans Rap and Country? Speakers and system overall are in my signature and posted elsewhere on this forum.

    How close in particular is the performance of the 212SE to the No. 25 for 2-channel listening only?

    Does the use of the classic REL Class AB amplification (which I always loved in my B1 and prior models) give a more musical response than their
    newer Class D designs and is it worth grabbing a G1 for my purposes and living without LongBow/WiFi?

    There are also a couple of 9/10 condition B1 Britannia still available out there; that sub excelled (at least for me and my system at the time) at
    2-channel as well as standing tall in a HT installation. I'm tempted to grab the B1(or plural) and go with what worked well for me before but I
    do see differences in the latest offerings that has my attention. The 13 Hz +/- 6db spec and real-life performance of the B1 was a hard act
    to follow so I'm looking to make the best choice possible to firmly tap the region of sub-bass from 21-23 Hz on down to pipe organ and synth
    foundation frequencies....

    ***I have always loved the high-level 100K ohm input method REL pioneered and think it is superior for 2-channel blending.
    Many others favor low/line-level input subs with DRO and other forms of digital integration (Velodyne, JL, etc...). Not meaning
    to start a philosophical or audio-religious bonfire here, but to all of your minds and ears out there,....does REL still stand up
    as one of the best in 2-channel subwoofer integration and musical quality? Any other brands I should be considering?

    Thanks in advance for the help!

    Hi, did u find out which is better the 212 or the G1MKii?

  16. #16
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    IME & IMO, the 212SE is the best REL sub I have heard or worked with.
    Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet filter w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; AQ Diamond USB; Duelund USB; Curious USB; PS Audio LanRover; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Audioquest Diamond ethernet; Audioquest Diamond AES - 3M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex - updated; Topping D-90; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amplifier; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamplifier, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Wyred 4 Sound STP-750E Mk II amplifier w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amplifiers w/Gold Lion KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Symposium Speaker Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

    www.getbettersound.com

  17. #17

    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    IME & IMO, the 212SE is the best REL sub I have heard or worked with.
    Hi Jim,


    The G1MKii has AB amp, while it is a reference model for REL. at the same time their other reference the No25 has class D amp!! To me this is confusing. Why would they use 2 different technologies at the same reference level?! This makes me feel that the 212 is better than the G1Mkii because it shares the sane technology as the No25.

    2 more questions plz:
    Can you tell me how the S5 sounds compared to the 212?
    Could you please share with me why you prefer the 212 over the G1MKii?

    I am sure that you realize that the G1 has carbon driver and sealed box design with no passive drivers. This makes me feel that it is faster and more tight due to the lack of the passive drivers.

  18. #18
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanbobo View Post
    Hi Jim,


    The G1MKii has AB amp, while it is a reference model for REL. at the same time their other reference the No25 has class D amp!! To me this is confusing. Why would they use 2 different technologies at the same reference level?! This makes me feel that the 212 is better than the G1Mkii because it shares the sane technology as the No25.

    2 more questions plz:
    Can you tell me how the S5 sounds compared to the 212?
    Closer to to the 212SE than other models in the S Range. Agile & tuneful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanbobo View Post
    Could you please share with me why you prefer the 212 over the G1MKii?
    Less thick, more agile, tuneful, and alive, yet with better control..

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanbobo View Post
    I am sure that you realize that the G1 has carbon driver and sealed box design with no passive drivers. This makes me feel that it is faster and more tight due to the lack of the passive drivers.
    My opinion comes from in-depth experience with the various models. It could be flawed and could have had more to do do with the rooms. I have no idea as to why, except to recount my actual experience with a dozen or so installations with these units.

    Re the S5, it is an exceptional value, IMO.
    Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet filter w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; AQ Diamond USB; Duelund USB; Curious USB; PS Audio LanRover; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Audioquest Diamond ethernet; Audioquest Diamond AES - 3M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex - updated; Topping D-90; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amplifier; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamplifier, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Wyred 4 Sound STP-750E Mk II amplifier w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amplifiers w/Gold Lion KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Symposium Speaker Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

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  19. #19

    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Smith View Post
    Closer to to the 212SE than other models in the S Range. Agile & tuneful.



    Less thick, more agile, tuneful, and alive, yet with better control..



    My opinion comes from in-depth experience with the various models. It could be flawed and could have had more to do do with the rooms. I have no idea as to why, except to recount my actual experience with a dozen or so installations with these units.

    Re the S5, it is an exceptional value, IMO.
    My room is 23 x 15 and do have a pair of S5. But would like to upgrade to the 212 or G1Mkii
    Why upgrade?
    My goal is to achieve a big orchestral atmosphere. I need something better and faster than the S5. I am limited to REL subwoofers, this is why I am between the 212 snd G1
    Your advice?

  20. #20
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanbobo View Post
    My room is 23 x 15 and do have a pair of S5. But would like to upgrade to the 212 or G1Mkii
    Why upgrade?
    My goal is to achieve a big orchestral atmosphere. I need something better and faster than the S5. I am limited to REL subwoofers, this is why I am between the 212 snd G1
    Your advice?

    Did you upgrade your REL’s? I have a similar size room. Wondering how it turned out for you ....

  21. #21
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I'm about to change from dual REL Carbon Limited subs to a single REL no. 25. I know everyone says dual subs are better than a single sub, but my experience has been different. I went from dual JL Audio F110 v2s to a single JL Audio F112 v2 and preferred the latter. I guess time will tell.

  22. #22
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Hi there,
    although I have no direct comparison with the G1MkII and the 212SE (which I Heard only at my dealer) I can only highly recommend the No 25. I donĎt listen at high Volumens, still it does so much for making the sound become real. Without it, my system now sounds artificial and soulless.
    By the way, if aesthetics are a consideration go for the No. 25 it just looks really magnificent with the grill and slightly curved upper side sloping down to the back.

    Once budget allows I might go for a second to get a stereo pair - which the REL customer support and my dealer recommended (ok they might me biased). However if the depth imaging with a pair is the same as from going from mono to stereo with regular speakers, the difference should be obvious.

    Anyway, please give some impressions if you go for the No 25. This will indeed be money worth spent!

  23. #23
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I talked to REL on Friday. The representative that I talked to told me the no. 25 is a definite stepup in bass output. He cautioned me that going from dual REL Carbon Limited subs to a single no. 25 may negatively affect the soundstage. Do any Audioshark member's own a single no. 25? I realize all rooms/systems are different, but I'm curious of how a single REL no. 25 affected your soundstage.

  24. #24
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I started with a single G1 when I was running Gamut M5ís and when I went to the Acoustic Zen Crescendo IIís I brought in a second
    In my room , I wonít say the second didnít work but there is absolutely some diminishing returns in play .... as alway your mileage may vary

  25. #25
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by ADCO View Post
    I started with a single G1 when I was running Gamut M5’s and when I went to the Acoustic Zen Crescendo II’s I brought in a second
    In my room , I won’t say the second didn’t work but there is absolutely some diminishing returns in play .... as alway your mileage may vary
    I received my first G1 mkII and should receive the 2nd one next week. I agree about diminishing returns, but in my experience once you hear a slight improvement, regardless of cost, it's almost impossible to forget. We pay a lot in this hobby for incremental improvements and to me it's usually worth it.

  26. #26
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by ADCO View Post
    I started with a single G1 when I was running Gamut M5ís and when I went to the Acoustic Zen Crescendo IIís I brought in a second
    In my room , I wonít say the second didnít work but there is absolutely some diminishing returns in play .... as alway your mileage may vary
    I received my first G1 mkII and should receive the 2nd one next week. I agree about diminishing returns, but in my experience once you hear a slight improvement, regardless of cost, it's almost impossible to forget. We pay a lot in this hobby for incremental improvements and to me it's usually worth it.

  27. #27
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by ricred1 View Post
    I received my first G1 mkII and should receive the 2nd one next week. I agree about diminishing returns, but in my experience once you hear a slight improvement, regardless of cost, it's almost impossible to forget. We pay a lot in this hobby for incremental improvements and to me it's usually worth it.
    Hi, I have a stereo pair of G1 augmenting my Rockport Avior. It’s one of the most significant upgrades I have made to the system. The music with the stereo pair of subs sounds way superior.

  28. #28
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by ricred1 View Post
    I received my first G1 mkII and should receive the 2nd one next week. I agree about diminishing returns, but in my experience once you hear a slight improvement, regardless of cost, it's almost impossible to forget. We pay a lot in this hobby for incremental improvements and to me it's usually worth it.
    Hi, I have a stereo pair of G1 augmenting my Rockport Avior. Itís one of the most significant upgrades I have made to the system. The music with the stereo pair of subs sounds way superior.

  29. #29
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sujay View Post
    Hi, I have a stereo pair of G1 augmenting my Rockport Avior. It’s one of the most significant upgrades I have made to the system. The music with the stereo pair of subs sounds way superior.
    I don't know how dual G1 mkII subs will sound in my system, but I'll know next week. What I do know is I prefer a single G1 mkII to the dual REL Carbon Limited's that I had. A single G1 mkII makes the music more tangible. All of the "audiophile" things are simply better with the G1 mkII and I look forward to receiving the second sub. Although a single G1 mkII disappears, I can feel more air/pressure on the side where the sub is located and that's the only reason I'm getting a second subwoofer. Value is different for everyone, but in my opinion the G1 mkII is worth every penny.

  30. #30
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sujay View Post
    Hi, I have a stereo pair of G1 augmenting my Rockport Avior. Itís one of the most significant upgrades I have made to the system. The music with the stereo pair of subs sounds way superior.
    I don't know how dual G1 mkII subs will sound in my system, but I'll know next week. What I do know is I prefer a single G1 mkII to the dual REL Carbon Limited's that I had. A single G1 mkII makes the music more tangible. All of the "audiophile" things are simply better with the G1 mkII and I look forward to receiving the second sub. Although a single G1 mkII disappears, I can feel more air/pressure on the side where the sub is located and that's the only reason I'm getting a second subwoofer. Value is different for everyone, but in my opinion the G1 mkII is worth every penny.

  31. #31
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Hi,
    When making this decision, did you consider getting the top of the line Rel No.25 sub or the 212 SE sub (both of which have class D amplification, which is allegedly "faster")?
    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by ricred1 View Post
    I don't know how dual G1 mkII subs will sound in my system, but I'll know next week. What I do know is I prefer a single G1 mkII to the dual REL Carbon Limited's that I had. A single G1 mkII makes the music more tangible. All of the "audiophile" things are simply better with the G1 mkII and I look forward to receiving the second sub. Although a single G1 mkII disappears, I can feel more air/pressure on the side where the sub is located and that's the only reason I'm getting a second subwoofer. Value is different for everyone, but in my opinion the G1 mkII is worth every penny.

  32. #32
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I talked to REL several times and they recommended the no. 25 as the best fit with my speakers/room followed by the G1 mkII. The no. 25 is a little more than I could/wanted to spend. The Carbon Limited's that I replaced had Class D amplifiers and the G1 mkII are a step in the right direction for my system.

  33. #33
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I believe REL will announce new additions to the reference line up, sooner rather than later. Itís just me but I would be wary investing in dual G1ís at this time lest buyers remorse sets in when new reference line comes out. The new s/812 and s/510 are significant improvements over the previous S series including Carbon Limited and certainly encroach on, damn near reaches reference territory based on conversations Iíve had. The new s series success would seem to predict new reference products to widen the gap. The No.25 on the other hand is a safe bet. Itís a monster and as good as it gets.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  34. #34
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I've actually compared my Carbon Limited's to s/812s and I kept my Carbons. I do have a friend that has dual s/812s, but I'll happily keep the G1 mkIIs. Companies will continue to improve/change products, but I can't afford to keep up with them and don't want to. If money were no object, I would have no. 25s. We all have choices and I'll live with mine.

  35. #35
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I received both REL G1 mkII subs. They're a great fit in my system/room. What stands out to me is how they improve spacing, the soundstage, and resolution across the audio spectrum. My wife says, "you can hear instruments better." I'm not talking night and day differences, but easily discernable differences.

  36. #36
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by ricred1 View Post
    I received both REL G1 mkII subs. They're a great fit in my system/room. What stands out to me is how they improve spacing, the soundstage, and resolution across the audio spectrum. My wife says, "you can hear instruments better." I'm not talking night and day differences, but easily discernable differences.
    Hello ricred1,

    great to hear you are really enjoying your subs!!

    IĎm considering the same thing, that is getting a second No. 25 for my system. John Hunter from REL always explains the effect of the second sub in a stereo pair to open up the sound stage in the two outer thirds - making the sound stage more U than V-shaped. From your experience is this the effect that you felt that adding a second sub did for you?

    Also, on a Ballpark percentage scale... if the first sub adds an imaginary 100% to sound of a system - more warmth, better voice, realism, etc. how much does the second do... another 20... 50... 70%?! Just to get a rough indication.

    Appreciate your thought and keep enjoying your wonderful subs!!

  37. #37
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Congrats!!!

    IMO, IME, when installed properly, the second sub is not so much about the bass, it's about the space...
    Small Green Computer; gigaFoil 4 Ethernet filter w/ Keces PS-3; Sonore ultraRendu; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; AQ Diamond USB; Duelund USB; Curious USB; PS Audio LanRover; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Audioquest Diamond ethernet; Audioquest Diamond AES - 3M; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex - updated; Topping D-90; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amplifier; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamplifier, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Wyred 4 Sound STP-750E Mk II amplifier w/Kimber TCX wiring & WBT binding posts; Quicksilver Mid Mono amplifiers w/Gold Lion KT77s, Joseph Audio Perspective 2 Graphenes; Symposium Speaker Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.

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  38. #38
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Hello Musiclover,

    "Also, on a Ballpark percentage scale... if the first sub adds an imaginary 100% to sound of a system - more warmth, better voice, realism, etc. how much does the second do... another 20... 50... 70%?! Just to get a rough indication."

    In my opinion adding a second sub is about space and equal pressurization of my room. It's very hard to quantify the percentage of change, but I would say 10% or less as a rough estimate. As with everything else audio related, despite the "small" percentage regarding improvements, adding the second sub, once you "hear" the difference it's hard to ignore. I submit this hobby is usually about incremental system improvements that are relatively expensive.

  39. #39
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Adding my second 212SE was a significant improvement to my overall musical enjoyment.Maybe a 30% improvement...!!!
    Listening Room: 25' L x 18' W x 23' H..system on the long wall
    Speakers: Tidal 'Contriva Diacera-SE
    Amps: Chalice Audio 'Grail' SET mono blocks with Psvane WE 845 / 300b tubes
    Source: Lumin X-1 Network Music Player
    HighFidelity MC-1 Pro Helix conditioner
    Cables:
    LessLoss C-MARC RCA interconnect
    Silent Source 'Music Reference' Speaker Cables
    Silent Source 'Music Reference' Power Cords x 3
    LessLoss 'Firewall for Speaker Cable'
    Revelation Audio Cat 8+ Ethernet Cable
    Clarus 'Duet' Power Conditioner

    REL 212 SE Subwoofer x 2
    GigaFoil v4 inline filter / Keces PSU / WireWorld 'Starlight'
    Ethernet cable



    Tweaks:
    Stillpoints Ultra SS under amps
    EVP HDR isolators 2" x 8...under my Lumin A1 and PSU
    EVP HDR isolators 4" x 16..under my Tidal speakers and my REL 212 SE subs

  40. #40
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Thanks a lot for the feedback... so I feel there are definitely sonic benefits for adding a second sub. Now I „just“ have the get the necessary funds, hehe...

    Btw what cables are you using for the G1 MkII and 212SE - both power cords and signal/subwoofer cables?

  41. #41
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I'm currently using the stock subwoofer cables. I ordered REL Baseline Blue subwoofer cables a couple of weeks ago, but they're on back order. I hope to have them in a week or two. I'm using Audioquest power cords on my subwoofers, but I've already ordered two Clarity Vortex power cords to match the rest of the power cords in my system.

  42. #42
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I added the Baseline Blue to my 212SEs (I have a pair of them) and absolutely loved it. Made a huge difference.

    That said, Iím running stock (!) power cords on them, so Iíll have to do something about that.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    Amplification: Accuphase A200 (2)//C3800//C37
    Accuphase E650 while room is under construction
    Tuner: MagnumDynalab 108T/SE
    Table/Cart: ClearAudio Innovation // Lyra Kleos
    Speakers: TAD CR-1 (R-1 MkII in storage/waiting on room), REL 212 (2)
    Power: Accuphase PS1230 (2)
    DAC/Spinner: LampiZator Pacific/ PSAudio Direct Stream Memory Player
    LampiZator SuperKomputer
    Final Touch Audio, Verastarr Cables
    AudioDesk Systeme RCM
    Stillpoints - to near excess

  43. #43
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    [QUOTE=Hounddog;304559]I added the Baseline Blue to my 212SEs (I have a pair of them) and absolutely loved it. Made a huge difference.

    "Made a huge difference." How? What did the Baseline Blue improve?

  44. #44
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    The new cables improved everything. Tighter, crisper bass, but with plenty of body. I bought them used, so it was quite cost effective. I am not sure of my set up in my new room and I may need to use the wireless connection, so Iíll have a comparison.



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
    Amplification: Accuphase A200 (2)//C3800//C37
    Accuphase E650 while room is under construction
    Tuner: MagnumDynalab 108T/SE
    Table/Cart: ClearAudio Innovation // Lyra Kleos
    Speakers: TAD CR-1 (R-1 MkII in storage/waiting on room), REL 212 (2)
    Power: Accuphase PS1230 (2)
    DAC/Spinner: LampiZator Pacific/ PSAudio Direct Stream Memory Player
    LampiZator SuperKomputer
    Final Touch Audio, Verastarr Cables
    AudioDesk Systeme RCM
    Stillpoints - to near excess

  45. #45
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    My REL Baseline Blue cables shipped and I'll have them on Friday. I'm curious to hear what impact they'll have in my system.

  46. #46
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by ricred1 View Post
    My REL Baseline Blue cables shipped and I'll have them on Friday. I'm curious to hear what impact they'll have in my system.
    Eager to hear your experiences, too. Might wanna join the Bassline club as well, if the improvements you get are similar. Especially since I find the cableís price quite moderate in comparison to what the subs and especially other cables like power cords etc can cost.

    So fingers crossed you enjoy them a lot!!

  47. #47
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    You will have to re- integrate the subs after you add the cables. I found that I had to add more gain. That takes about five minutes and then itís great. REL has YouTube videos on it and information on their site.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Amplification: Accuphase A200 (2)//C3800//C37
    Accuphase E650 while room is under construction
    Tuner: MagnumDynalab 108T/SE
    Table/Cart: ClearAudio Innovation // Lyra Kleos
    Speakers: TAD CR-1 (R-1 MkII in storage/waiting on room), REL 212 (2)
    Power: Accuphase PS1230 (2)
    DAC/Spinner: LampiZator Pacific/ PSAudio Direct Stream Memory Player
    LampiZator SuperKomputer
    Final Touch Audio, Verastarr Cables
    AudioDesk Systeme RCM
    Stillpoints - to near excess

  48. #48
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    I received the REL Baseline Blue cables. I don't want to exaggerate, but to simply say that the REL Baseline Blue cables makes a difference would be an understatement. Everything and I mean everything is improved relating to detail across the entire audio spectrum. Adding the second subwoofer improved space and equalized my room. I'm willing to say as it pertains to improving detail, adding the Baseline Blue is more impactful than adding the second subwoofer.

  49. #49
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    Quote Originally Posted by ricred1 View Post
    I received the REL Baseline Blue cables. I don't want to exaggerate, but to simply say that the REL Baseline Blue cables makes a difference would be an understatement. Everything and I mean everything is improved relating to detail across the entire audio spectrum. Adding the second subwoofer improved space and equalized my room. I'm willing to say as it pertains to improving detail, adding the Baseline Blue is more impactful than adding the second subwoofer.
    Good to hear. I have always had a pair of stereo subs, so canít compare the two, but the cables made a significant positive difference in my system. Iím surprised more folks donít give it a try.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Amplification: Accuphase A200 (2)//C3800//C37
    Accuphase E650 while room is under construction
    Tuner: MagnumDynalab 108T/SE
    Table/Cart: ClearAudio Innovation // Lyra Kleos
    Speakers: TAD CR-1 (R-1 MkII in storage/waiting on room), REL 212 (2)
    Power: Accuphase PS1230 (2)
    DAC/Spinner: LampiZator Pacific/ PSAudio Direct Stream Memory Player
    LampiZator SuperKomputer
    Final Touch Audio, Verastarr Cables
    AudioDesk Systeme RCM
    Stillpoints - to near excess

  50. #50
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    Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

    [QUOTE=Hounddog;305137]Good to hear. I have always had a pair of stereo subs, so can’t compare the two, but the cables made a significant positive difference in my system. I’m surprised more folks don’t give it a try.

    There are some that believe cables don't make a difference. In addition, all systems are different and can have different results. e.g. When I had REL Carbon Limited subwoofers I preferred the low-level connection. With the REL G1 mkII subwoofers I prefer the high-level connection. I just say to each their own.

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REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...

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