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December 12, 2017, 01:47 PM #1
REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
My great experiences with REL for 2-channel and home-theater is more than a bit dated given ownership of B1 Britannia(s) preceded by Stadium and Stentor.
Other than what I've found online in terms of the obvious "RTFM" differences in low-frequency specs., amplification differences and WiFi (No. 25 and 212SE),
what would those of you with experience with these 3 models have to say about the No. 25, G1 and 212SE performance for a full-range 2-channel only
setup that is used to play everything from pipe organ, taiko drumming, jazz, classical, new age, fusion, R&B, Techno, Rock, Prog-Rock, etc...i.e. the
full spectrum sans Rap and Country? Speakers and system overall are in my signature and posted elsewhere on this forum.
How close in particular is the performance of the 212SE to the No. 25 for 2-channel listening only?
Does the use of the classic REL Class AB amplification (which I always loved in my B1 and prior models) give a more musical response than their
newer Class D designs and is it worth grabbing a G1 for my purposes and living without LongBow/WiFi?
There are also a couple of 9/10 condition B1 Britannia still available out there; that sub excelled (at least for me and my system at the time) at
2-channel as well as standing tall in a HT installation. I'm tempted to grab the B1(or plural) and go with what worked well for me before but I
do see differences in the latest offerings that has my attention. The 13 Hz +/- 6db spec and real-life performance of the B1 was a hard act
to follow so I'm looking to make the best choice possible to firmly tap the region of sub-bass from 21-23 Hz on down to pipe organ and synth
foundation frequencies....
***I have always loved the high-level 100K ohm input method REL pioneered and think it is superior for 2-channel blending.
Many others favor low/line-level input subs with DRO and other forms of digital integration (Velodyne, JL, etc...). Not meaning
to start a philosophical or audio-religious bonfire here, but to all of your minds and ears out there,....does REL still stand up
as one of the best in 2-channel subwoofer integration and musical quality? Any other brands I should be considering?
Thanks in advance for the help!Legacy Audio Valor+Wavelet v2, Esoteric S-02 Amps HDPlex 300W, RevAudio Labs DC Umbilical, Esoteric Grandioso P1, P1PSU & dual D1 DACs, Cybershaft Prem Ltd OP21A 10 MHz Clock, Esoteric C-02X, Shunyata Everest 8000 & Altaira SG-NR hubs, Sigma SGC/CGC ground cables, VTX-Ag ground tails, AfterBurner8 duplexes, CSP Inc Q4B, S2B IEC plates, Shunyata Omega CLOCK-50 cables, Tubulus Concentus HDMI, Elrod Master Series Diamond SE & Masters Series Gold Power cords and Statement Gold XLRs, Diamond XLRs & Master Series Diamond XLRs, Shunyata OMEGA QR-s power cable, Anaconda Z-tron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables, Adona Zero GX3, GX2, GX racks, Composite Audio CF-2010, Townshend Audio Podiums, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases, pArtScience 64-well, 2D QRD 3-inch SpaceArray Diffusors
Travel/Rip: Apple MacBook Pro 16” 2023 M2 Max, 12-core CPU, 38-core GPU, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD for Audirvana+ v3, iTunes, REW Audio Analyzer, dbPowerAmp, DVD Audio Extractor
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December 12, 2017, 03:56 PM #2
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
IMHO, I would go No. 25 or 212SE. No. 25 is on my short list.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMy Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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December 12, 2017, 04:05 PM #3
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I saw a photo of the new REL 25 in the new TAS yesterday. Nice looking.
Jim
D'Agostino Momentum M-400's MxV’s & HD Pre-amp
Wilson Alexandria X2 Series 2 speakers
Digital: dCS Vivaldi APEX DAC, Clock & Upsampler
Analog: SME 20/3 with Esoteric E-03 Phono
Transparent Opus Speaker Cable & Interconnects & Opus Power Cords
Power Cords on Digital: Shunyata
Power Conditioner - Shunyata Everest
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December 12, 2017, 04:57 PM #4
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Legacy Audio Valor+Wavelet v2, Esoteric S-02 Amps HDPlex 300W, RevAudio Labs DC Umbilical, Esoteric Grandioso P1, P1PSU & dual D1 DACs, Cybershaft Prem Ltd OP21A 10 MHz Clock, Esoteric C-02X, Shunyata Everest 8000 & Altaira SG-NR hubs, Sigma SGC/CGC ground cables, VTX-Ag ground tails, AfterBurner8 duplexes, CSP Inc Q4B, S2B IEC plates, Shunyata Omega CLOCK-50 cables, Tubulus Concentus HDMI, Elrod Master Series Diamond SE & Masters Series Gold Power cords and Statement Gold XLRs, Diamond XLRs & Master Series Diamond XLRs, Shunyata OMEGA QR-s power cable, Anaconda Z-tron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables, Adona Zero GX3, GX2, GX racks, Composite Audio CF-2010, Townshend Audio Podiums, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases, pArtScience 64-well, 2D QRD 3-inch SpaceArray Diffusors
Travel/Rip: Apple MacBook Pro 16” 2023 M2 Max, 12-core CPU, 38-core GPU, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD for Audirvana+ v3, iTunes, REW Audio Analyzer, dbPowerAmp, DVD Audio Extractor
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December 12, 2017, 05:31 PM #5
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481
"We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."
Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.
https://suncoastaudio.com/
Phone: 941-932-0282
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/
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December 12, 2017, 05:31 PM #6
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I have the 212 SEs here in my demo room in the Atlanta area. Can't imagine better performance. Well I CAN imagine it, but I haven't heard it, nor have the RoomPlay Reference visitors who've heard the 212 SEs.
I have not heard the Magico subs, however.DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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December 12, 2017, 05:41 PM #7
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Thank you for this,....I'm on the road tomorrow all day down to the Atlanta area. I'll give you a call to talk more in-depth towards end of the week!
Looks like the same generation of amp design that is in the No. 25 also made it into the 212SE....the big difference seems to be power handling
and low frequency spec. (+/- 6db at 14 Hz versus 19 Hz respectively).
I heard a set of M3s last week when I was up north paired with a Magico Q-Subs...quite nice overall but frankly even though the blending was
done meticulously for the speakers and the room, I turned the Q-Sub off after about an hour and spent the next 2+ hours much happier surprisingly
enough. The M3s have a bottom register that is very impressive...Legacy Audio Valor+Wavelet v2, Esoteric S-02 Amps HDPlex 300W, RevAudio Labs DC Umbilical, Esoteric Grandioso P1, P1PSU & dual D1 DACs, Cybershaft Prem Ltd OP21A 10 MHz Clock, Esoteric C-02X, Shunyata Everest 8000 & Altaira SG-NR hubs, Sigma SGC/CGC ground cables, VTX-Ag ground tails, AfterBurner8 duplexes, CSP Inc Q4B, S2B IEC plates, Shunyata Omega CLOCK-50 cables, Tubulus Concentus HDMI, Elrod Master Series Diamond SE & Masters Series Gold Power cords and Statement Gold XLRs, Diamond XLRs & Master Series Diamond XLRs, Shunyata OMEGA QR-s power cable, Anaconda Z-tron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables, Adona Zero GX3, GX2, GX racks, Composite Audio CF-2010, Townshend Audio Podiums, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases, pArtScience 64-well, 2D QRD 3-inch SpaceArray Diffusors
Travel/Rip: Apple MacBook Pro 16” 2023 M2 Max, 12-core CPU, 38-core GPU, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD for Audirvana+ v3, iTunes, REW Audio Analyzer, dbPowerAmp, DVD Audio Extractor
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December 12, 2017, 05:43 PM #8
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Jim,
Thank you! Your reputation for speaker integration, room-tuning, placement, etc...is well known. I may ask you to come by and render your opinion at some point in the future for this house or for the next house likely to be built next year if we can pull off a move we have in mind up north into the NC mountains.
FWIW...I heard a set of Magico M3s last week when I was up north paired with a Magico Q-Subs...quite nice overall but frankly even though the blending was
done meticulously for the speakers and the room, I turned the Q-Sub off after about an hour and spent the next 2+ hours much happier surprisingly
enough. The M3s have a bottom register that is very impressive...The Q-Sub was a fine unit, no complaints,...something about the M3s said 'play
me without a subwoofer!'...Legacy Audio Valor+Wavelet v2, Esoteric S-02 Amps HDPlex 300W, RevAudio Labs DC Umbilical, Esoteric Grandioso P1, P1PSU & dual D1 DACs, Cybershaft Prem Ltd OP21A 10 MHz Clock, Esoteric C-02X, Shunyata Everest 8000 & Altaira SG-NR hubs, Sigma SGC/CGC ground cables, VTX-Ag ground tails, AfterBurner8 duplexes, CSP Inc Q4B, S2B IEC plates, Shunyata Omega CLOCK-50 cables, Tubulus Concentus HDMI, Elrod Master Series Diamond SE & Masters Series Gold Power cords and Statement Gold XLRs, Diamond XLRs & Master Series Diamond XLRs, Shunyata OMEGA QR-s power cable, Anaconda Z-tron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables, Adona Zero GX3, GX2, GX racks, Composite Audio CF-2010, Townshend Audio Podiums, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases, pArtScience 64-well, 2D QRD 3-inch SpaceArray Diffusors
Travel/Rip: Apple MacBook Pro 16” 2023 M2 Max, 12-core CPU, 38-core GPU, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD for Audirvana+ v3, iTunes, REW Audio Analyzer, dbPowerAmp, DVD Audio Extractor
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December 19, 2017, 07:53 PM #9
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
- Posts
- 61
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I have two G1's with my magicos and it seems to depend on the type of music I play. with more modern music ie hip hop, pop, alternative, & electronic they are dialed in well. when i play jazz and classical I have to retune them.
burmester 088/911, rega rp6, sumiko blackbird, magio S3, rel g1's, rogers pa1a, nos telefunkens, wireworld plat. ic, sc
chord dave, microrendu, uptone lps 1
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December 20, 2017, 08:51 AM #10Legacy Audio Valor+Wavelet v2, Esoteric S-02 Amps HDPlex 300W, RevAudio Labs DC Umbilical, Esoteric Grandioso P1, P1PSU & dual D1 DACs, Cybershaft Prem Ltd OP21A 10 MHz Clock, Esoteric C-02X, Shunyata Everest 8000 & Altaira SG-NR hubs, Sigma SGC/CGC ground cables, VTX-Ag ground tails, AfterBurner8 duplexes, CSP Inc Q4B, S2B IEC plates, Shunyata Omega CLOCK-50 cables, Tubulus Concentus HDMI, Elrod Master Series Diamond SE & Masters Series Gold Power cords and Statement Gold XLRs, Diamond XLRs & Master Series Diamond XLRs, Shunyata OMEGA QR-s power cable, Anaconda Z-tron XLR, Elrod Statement Gold speaker cables, Adona Zero GX3, GX2, GX racks, Composite Audio CF-2010, Townshend Audio Podiums, HRS DPX Damping Plates, Stillpoints Ultra SS w/Ultra Bases, pArtScience 64-well, 2D QRD 3-inch SpaceArray Diffusors
Travel/Rip: Apple MacBook Pro 16” 2023 M2 Max, 12-core CPU, 38-core GPU, 32 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD for Audirvana+ v3, iTunes, REW Audio Analyzer, dbPowerAmp, DVD Audio Extractor
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December 20, 2017, 01:40 PM #11
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
There is so much that I could say, speaking from the experience of successfully voicing over 300 systems-with-subs to rooms, especially about the need (or not) to change the subs' settings for certain types of music.
Perhaps this 7-part series on subwoofers from Copper e-mag will offer some insights for those who have the time & interest:
Subwoofery: Trick Or Treat?
http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwoofery-trick-or-treat/
Subwoofery: Trick or Treat? - part 2
http://www.psaudio.com/article/trick-or-treat/
Wait A Minute!
http://www.psaudio.com/article/wait-a-minute/
Subwoofery: Smooth Operator?
http://www.psaudio.com/article/smooth-operator/
Subwoofery: Location, Location, Location
http://www.psaudio.com/article/location-location-location/
Subwoofery: The Basics
http://www.psaudio.com/article/38363/
Subwoofery: The Finale
http://www.psaudio.com/article/subwoofery-the-finale/DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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December 21, 2017, 03:42 PM #12
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
- Posts
- 61
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
After reading some of the articles they are very informative. I not gonna lie but most of my settings are by ear. And I agree the the “taste” section. When I play modern music the bass is set to my liking. But with classical and jazz I have specific setting I dial in to my “taste”
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December 23, 2017, 01:38 PM #13
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
IME & IMO, - and that's all it is - not presented as some absolute fact:
If you have to adjust the subs for different types of music, you have a bit more work to do.
Anytime that you are aware of them, there is still some integration to be done.
I am referring to "full-range" speakers & subs, not satellites & subs.
Often, it's because we forget that when we raise or lower the level slightly, we need to adjust the xover freq in the other direction. Otherwise, raising the sub volume level with RELs will always raise the xover frequency, same applies for reducing the sub volume level always lowering the xover freq.
Of course, this applies more obviously when the first aspect of any set-up is achieved - locate the best listening position in the room (for smoothest bass) for the main speakers. In general, the speakers shouldn't get any meaningful adjustment until the anchor point (listening position) is located.DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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December 23, 2017, 02:08 PM #14
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Jock
If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.
---------
House: Naim ND555/2PS, Naim 552, Naim 500, Studer A80/Doshi V3, Magico M2s, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Lumina IC/SC, Shunyata Everest and Omega PCs.
Workshop: Naim ND555/2 PS, VAC Master Pre, VAC Sig 200iQ, Border Patrol pre/power, Avant Garde Duo Mezzo XD, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Shunyata IC/SC, Shunyata Typhon QR/Triton V3/Sigma PCs.
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April 29, 2019, 04:04 PM #15
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- Feb 2019
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- 19
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April 30, 2019, 08:30 AM #16
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
IME & IMO, the 212SE is the best REL sub I have heard or worked with.
DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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April 30, 2019, 11:39 AM #17
- Join Date
- Feb 2019
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- 19
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Hi Jim,
The G1MKii has AB amp, while it is a reference model for REL. at the same time their other reference the No25 has class D amp!! To me this is confusing. Why would they use 2 different technologies at the same reference level?! This makes me feel that the 212 is better than the G1Mkii because it shares the sane technology as the No25.
2 more questions plz:
Can you tell me how the S5 sounds compared to the 212?
Could you please share with me why you prefer the 212 over the G1MKii?
I am sure that you realize that the G1 has carbon driver and sealed box design with no passive drivers. This makes me feel that it is faster and more tight due to the lack of the passive drivers.
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April 30, 2019, 11:59 AM #18
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Closer to to the 212SE than other models in the S Range. Agile & tuneful.
Less thick, more agile, tuneful, and alive, yet with better control..
My opinion comes from in-depth experience with the various models. It could be flawed and could have had more to do do with the rooms. I have no idea as to why, except to recount my actual experience with a dozen or so installations with these units.
Re the S5, it is an exceptional value, IMO.DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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April 30, 2019, 12:05 PM #19
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- Feb 2019
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- 19
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
My room is 23 x 15 and do have a pair of S5. But would like to upgrade to the 212 or G1Mkii
Why upgrade?
My goal is to achieve a big orchestral atmosphere. I need something better and faster than the S5. I am limited to REL subwoofers, this is why I am between the 212 snd G1
Your advice?
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August 16, 2019, 09:39 PM #20
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April 13, 2020, 01:21 PM #21
- Join Date
- Aug 2019
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- San Antonio, TX
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- 56
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I'm about to change from dual REL Carbon Limited subs to a single REL no. 25. I know everyone says dual subs are better than a single sub, but my experience has been different. I went from dual JL Audio F110 v2s to a single JL Audio F112 v2 and preferred the latter. I guess time will tell.
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April 19, 2020, 07:08 AM #22
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- Feb 2020
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- Germany
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Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Hi there,
although I have no direct comparison with the G1MkII and the 212SE (which I Heard only at my dealer) I can only highly recommend the No 25. I don‘t listen at high Volumens, still it does so much for making the sound become real. Without it, my system now sounds artificial and soulless.
By the way, if aesthetics are a consideration go for the No. 25 it just looks really magnificent with the grill and slightly curved upper side sloping down to the back.
Once budget allows I might go for a second to get a stereo pair - which the REL customer support and my dealer recommended (ok they might me biased). However if the depth imaging with a pair is the same as from going from mono to stereo with regular speakers, the difference should be obvious.
Anyway, please give some impressions if you go for the No 25. This will indeed be money worth spent!
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April 19, 2020, 12:25 PM #23
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- Aug 2019
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- San Antonio, TX
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Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I talked to REL on Friday. The representative that I talked to told me the no. 25 is a definite stepup in bass output. He cautioned me that going from dual REL Carbon Limited subs to a single no. 25 may negatively affect the soundstage. Do any Audioshark member's own a single no. 25? I realize all rooms/systems are different, but I'm curious of how a single REL no. 25 affected your soundstage.
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April 29, 2020, 06:32 PM #24
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- Oct 2019
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- London Canada
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Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I started with a single G1 when I was running Gamut M5’s and when I went to the Acoustic Zen Crescendo II’s I brought in a second
In my room , I won’t say the second didn’t work but there is absolutely some diminishing returns in play .... as alway your mileage may vary
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May 1, 2020, 11:29 AM #25
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- Aug 2019
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Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I received my first G1 mkII and should receive the 2nd one next week. I agree about diminishing returns, but in my experience once you hear a slight improvement, regardless of cost, it's almost impossible to forget. We pay a lot in this hobby for incremental improvements and to me it's usually worth it.
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May 1, 2020, 11:30 AM #26
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- Aug 2019
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Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I received my first G1 mkII and should receive the 2nd one next week. I agree about diminishing returns, but in my experience once you hear a slight improvement, regardless of cost, it's almost impossible to forget. We pay a lot in this hobby for incremental improvements and to me it's usually worth it.
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May 2, 2020, 01:57 AM #27
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- Singapore
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May 2, 2020, 01:57 AM #28
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May 2, 2020, 07:57 AM #29
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- San Antonio, TX
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Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I don't know how dual G1 mkII subs will sound in my system, but I'll know next week. What I do know is I prefer a single G1 mkII to the dual REL Carbon Limited's that I had. A single G1 mkII makes the music more tangible. All of the "audiophile" things are simply better with the G1 mkII and I look forward to receiving the second sub. Although a single G1 mkII disappears, I can feel more air/pressure on the side where the sub is located and that's the only reason I'm getting a second subwoofer. Value is different for everyone, but in my opinion the G1 mkII is worth every penny.
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May 2, 2020, 07:59 AM #30
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- Aug 2019
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- San Antonio, TX
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- 56
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I don't know how dual G1 mkII subs will sound in my system, but I'll know next week. What I do know is I prefer a single G1 mkII to the dual REL Carbon Limited's that I had. A single G1 mkII makes the music more tangible. All of the "audiophile" things are simply better with the G1 mkII and I look forward to receiving the second sub. Although a single G1 mkII disappears, I can feel more air/pressure on the side where the sub is located and that's the only reason I'm getting a second subwoofer. Value is different for everyone, but in my opinion the G1 mkII is worth every penny.
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May 2, 2020, 12:04 PM #31
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- Oct 2013
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- Seattle, WA
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May 2, 2020, 02:07 PM #32
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- Aug 2019
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- San Antonio, TX
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Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I talked to REL several times and they recommended the no. 25 as the best fit with my speakers/room followed by the G1 mkII. The no. 25 is a little more than I could/wanted to spend. The Carbon Limited's that I replaced had Class D amplifiers and the G1 mkII are a step in the right direction for my system.
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May 2, 2020, 02:47 PM #33
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I believe REL will announce new additions to the reference line up, sooner rather than later. It’s just me but I would be wary investing in dual G1’s at this time lest buyers remorse sets in when new reference line comes out. The new s/812 and s/510 are significant improvements over the previous S series including Carbon Limited and certainly encroach on, damn near reaches reference territory based on conversations I’ve had. The new s series success would seem to predict new reference products to widen the gap. The No.25 on the other hand is a safe bet. It’s a monster and as good as it gets.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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May 2, 2020, 03:46 PM #34
- Join Date
- Aug 2019
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- San Antonio, TX
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Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I've actually compared my Carbon Limited's to s/812s and I kept my Carbons. I do have a friend that has dual s/812s, but I'll happily keep the G1 mkIIs. Companies will continue to improve/change products, but I can't afford to keep up with them and don't want to. If money were no object, I would have no. 25s. We all have choices and I'll live with mine.
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May 8, 2020, 09:20 AM #35
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- Aug 2019
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- San Antonio, TX
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- 56
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I received both REL G1 mkII subs. They're a great fit in my system/room. What stands out to me is how they improve spacing, the soundstage, and resolution across the audio spectrum. My wife says, "you can hear instruments better." I'm not talking night and day differences, but easily discernable differences.
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June 4, 2020, 04:25 AM #36
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- Feb 2020
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- Germany
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- 63
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Hello ricred1,
great to hear you are really enjoying your subs!!
I‘m considering the same thing, that is getting a second No. 25 for my system. John Hunter from REL always explains the effect of the second sub in a stereo pair to open up the sound stage in the two outer thirds - making the sound stage more U than V-shaped. From your experience is this the effect that you felt that adding a second sub did for you?
Also, on a Ballpark percentage scale... if the first sub adds an imaginary 100% to sound of a system - more warmth, better voice, realism, etc. how much does the second do... another 20... 50... 70%?! Just to get a rough indication.
Appreciate your thought and keep enjoying your wonderful subs!!
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June 4, 2020, 06:40 AM #37
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Congrats!!!
IMO, IME, when installed properly, the second sub is not so much about the bass, it's about the space...DPT4ME - Dynamics, Presence & Tone for Musical Engagement; MBP (3) - stripped down for music only; Shunyata Omega & Sigma USBs; ISO REGEN w/short Curious USB links; Berkeley Alpha USB; Aqua La Scala II Optologic DAC; Schiit Yggdrasil - fully updated; Ayre Codex dac - updated; Pass Labs INT-60 integrated amp; Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE-2 preamp, Quicksilver Mono 120 amps w/Tung-Sol KT150s; Quicksilver Mid Mono amps w/Gold Lion KT77s; Fyne Audio 703s; Symposium Svelte Plus & Ultra Platforms; REL S-812 subwoofers; Duelund DCA12GA speaker cables; AV Room Service EVPs, Stein Music Harmonizers, Duelund DCA16GA & 20GA ICs; Shunyata Denali 6000S/V2; Tripp Lite PCs; Wyred 4 Sound power cords; AudioDharma cable cooker; dedicated custom room; various GIK & ASC room treatments; etc.
www.getbettersound.com
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June 4, 2020, 12:33 PM #38
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- Aug 2019
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- San Antonio, TX
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Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Hello Musiclover,
"Also, on a Ballpark percentage scale... if the first sub adds an imaginary 100% to sound of a system - more warmth, better voice, realism, etc. how much does the second do... another 20... 50... 70%?! Just to get a rough indication."
In my opinion adding a second sub is about space and equal pressurization of my room. It's very hard to quantify the percentage of change, but I would say 10% or less as a rough estimate. As with everything else audio related, despite the "small" percentage regarding improvements, adding the second sub, once you "hear" the difference it's hard to ignore. I submit this hobby is usually about incremental system improvements that are relatively expensive.
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June 4, 2020, 08:08 PM #39
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Adding my second 212SE was a significant improvement to my overall musical enjoyment.Maybe a 30% improvement...!!!
Listening Room: 25' L x 18' W x 23' H..system on the long wall
Speakers: Tidal 'Contriva Diacera-SE
Amps: Chalice Audio 'Grail' SET mono blocks with Psvane WE 845 / 300b tubes
Source: Lumin X-1 Network Music Player
HighFidelity MC-1 Pro Helix conditioner
Cables:
Audience-Studio One RCA interconnect
SilverSmith 'Fidelium' speaker cables
Silent Source 'Music Reference' Power Cords x 3
Innuos 'PhoenixNet' Switch
CAD-CG-1
Audioquest 'fog lifters' under the Fidelium cables
Arya Audio-RevOpods under my Tidal Speakers
REL 212 SE Subwoofer x 2
Nordost V2 ethernet cable
EVP Isolation footers- subs-speakers- Lumin
Tweaks:
Stillpoints Ultra SS under amps
EVP HDR isolators 2" x 8...under my Lumin A1 and PSU
EVP HDR isolators 4" x 16..under my Tidal speakers and my REL 212 SE subs
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June 7, 2020, 04:15 PM #40
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- Feb 2020
- Location
- Germany
- Posts
- 63
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Thanks a lot for the feedback... so I feel there are definitely sonic benefits for adding a second sub. Now I „just“ have the get the necessary funds, hehe...
Btw what cables are you using for the G1 MkII and 212SE - both power cords and signal/subwoofer cables?
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June 7, 2020, 04:51 PM #41
- Join Date
- Aug 2019
- Location
- San Antonio, TX
- Posts
- 56
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I'm currently using the stock subwoofer cables. I ordered REL Baseline Blue subwoofer cables a couple of weeks ago, but they're on back order. I hope to have them in a week or two. I'm using Audioquest power cords on my subwoofers, but I've already ordered two Clarity Vortex power cords to match the rest of the power cords in my system.
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June 8, 2020, 09:16 PM #42
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I added the Baseline Blue to my 212SEs (I have a pair of them) and absolutely loved it. Made a huge difference.
That said, I’m running stock (!) power cords on them, so I’ll have to do something about that.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ProAmplification: DartZeel 468 (2) // DartZeel NHB18NS Mk. II
Tuner: MagnumDynalab 108T/SE
Table/Cart: J.Sikora Reference // Integrity HiFi Tru-Glider - DSAudio GrandMaster EX // Integrity HiFI Tru-Glider - Ortofon A Mono
Equalizer/Phono Pre: DSAudio Master3
Speakers: TAD R-1 MkII, REL Six Pack of REL Carbon Specials
Power: Nordost QBase8 Mk3, QX4, Qkore1, 3 and 6 (chassis), QK1 (2), QV2 (2), Chord GroundAray (signal), Chord Line Aray (3), Chord Professional, AddPOWR EAU2 (2)
DAC/Serv-stream: LampiZator Horizon/ Taiko Extreme
Elrod Master Statement Diamond SE Speaker Cables
Elrod Master Statement Diamond PCs (7), Evolution Acoustics 50 ohm (Zeel Connection), Nordost Odin2 IC (2), Nordost Valhalla II USB, CH Acoustic X20 IC, Final Touch Audio Elara PCs (6)
AudioDesk Systeme RCM
CMS Ultra 2.0 Footers TT (2) and TD (2), Revopods (2) and SortKones and EVPs where they work
Critical Mass Systems Ultra-Q Rack > Silence Focus Amp Stands
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June 9, 2020, 10:45 AM #43
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- Aug 2019
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- San Antonio, TX
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- 56
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
[QUOTE=Hounddog;304559]I added the Baseline Blue to my 212SEs (I have a pair of them) and absolutely loved it. Made a huge difference.
"Made a huge difference." How? What did the Baseline Blue improve?
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June 9, 2020, 11:28 AM #44
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
The new cables improved everything. Tighter, crisper bass, but with plenty of body. I bought them used, so it was quite cost effective. I am not sure of my set up in my new room and I may need to use the wireless connection, so I’ll have a comparison.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ProAmplification: DartZeel 468 (2) // DartZeel NHB18NS Mk. II
Tuner: MagnumDynalab 108T/SE
Table/Cart: J.Sikora Reference // Integrity HiFi Tru-Glider - DSAudio GrandMaster EX // Integrity HiFI Tru-Glider - Ortofon A Mono
Equalizer/Phono Pre: DSAudio Master3
Speakers: TAD R-1 MkII, REL Six Pack of REL Carbon Specials
Power: Nordost QBase8 Mk3, QX4, Qkore1, 3 and 6 (chassis), QK1 (2), QV2 (2), Chord GroundAray (signal), Chord Line Aray (3), Chord Professional, AddPOWR EAU2 (2)
DAC/Serv-stream: LampiZator Horizon/ Taiko Extreme
Elrod Master Statement Diamond SE Speaker Cables
Elrod Master Statement Diamond PCs (7), Evolution Acoustics 50 ohm (Zeel Connection), Nordost Odin2 IC (2), Nordost Valhalla II USB, CH Acoustic X20 IC, Final Touch Audio Elara PCs (6)
AudioDesk Systeme RCM
CMS Ultra 2.0 Footers TT (2) and TD (2), Revopods (2) and SortKones and EVPs where they work
Critical Mass Systems Ultra-Q Rack > Silence Focus Amp Stands
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June 10, 2020, 01:10 PM #45
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- Aug 2019
- Location
- San Antonio, TX
- Posts
- 56
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
My REL Baseline Blue cables shipped and I'll have them on Friday. I'm curious to hear what impact they'll have in my system.
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June 11, 2020, 03:01 AM #46
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
- Location
- Germany
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- 63
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Eager to hear your experiences, too. Might wanna join the Bassline club as well, if the improvements you get are similar. Especially since I find the cable’s price quite moderate in comparison to what the subs and especially other cables like power cords etc can cost.
So fingers crossed you enjoy them a lot!!
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June 11, 2020, 04:06 AM #47
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
You will have to re- integrate the subs after you add the cables. I found that I had to add more gain. That takes about five minutes and then it’s great. REL has YouTube videos on it and information on their site.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProAmplification: DartZeel 468 (2) // DartZeel NHB18NS Mk. II
Tuner: MagnumDynalab 108T/SE
Table/Cart: J.Sikora Reference // Integrity HiFi Tru-Glider - DSAudio GrandMaster EX // Integrity HiFI Tru-Glider - Ortofon A Mono
Equalizer/Phono Pre: DSAudio Master3
Speakers: TAD R-1 MkII, REL Six Pack of REL Carbon Specials
Power: Nordost QBase8 Mk3, QX4, Qkore1, 3 and 6 (chassis), QK1 (2), QV2 (2), Chord GroundAray (signal), Chord Line Aray (3), Chord Professional, AddPOWR EAU2 (2)
DAC/Serv-stream: LampiZator Horizon/ Taiko Extreme
Elrod Master Statement Diamond SE Speaker Cables
Elrod Master Statement Diamond PCs (7), Evolution Acoustics 50 ohm (Zeel Connection), Nordost Odin2 IC (2), Nordost Valhalla II USB, CH Acoustic X20 IC, Final Touch Audio Elara PCs (6)
AudioDesk Systeme RCM
CMS Ultra 2.0 Footers TT (2) and TD (2), Revopods (2) and SortKones and EVPs where they work
Critical Mass Systems Ultra-Q Rack > Silence Focus Amp Stands
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June 13, 2020, 06:08 PM #48
- Join Date
- Aug 2019
- Location
- San Antonio, TX
- Posts
- 56
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
I received the REL Baseline Blue cables. I don't want to exaggerate, but to simply say that the REL Baseline Blue cables makes a difference would be an understatement. Everything and I mean everything is improved relating to detail across the entire audio spectrum. Adding the second subwoofer improved space and equalized my room. I'm willing to say as it pertains to improving detail, adding the Baseline Blue is more impactful than adding the second subwoofer.
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June 14, 2020, 06:36 AM #49
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
Amplification: DartZeel 468 (2) // DartZeel NHB18NS Mk. II
Tuner: MagnumDynalab 108T/SE
Table/Cart: J.Sikora Reference // Integrity HiFi Tru-Glider - DSAudio GrandMaster EX // Integrity HiFI Tru-Glider - Ortofon A Mono
Equalizer/Phono Pre: DSAudio Master3
Speakers: TAD R-1 MkII, REL Six Pack of REL Carbon Specials
Power: Nordost QBase8 Mk3, QX4, Qkore1, 3 and 6 (chassis), QK1 (2), QV2 (2), Chord GroundAray (signal), Chord Line Aray (3), Chord Professional, AddPOWR EAU2 (2)
DAC/Serv-stream: LampiZator Horizon/ Taiko Extreme
Elrod Master Statement Diamond SE Speaker Cables
Elrod Master Statement Diamond PCs (7), Evolution Acoustics 50 ohm (Zeel Connection), Nordost Odin2 IC (2), Nordost Valhalla II USB, CH Acoustic X20 IC, Final Touch Audio Elara PCs (6)
AudioDesk Systeme RCM
CMS Ultra 2.0 Footers TT (2) and TD (2), Revopods (2) and SortKones and EVPs where they work
Critical Mass Systems Ultra-Q Rack > Silence Focus Amp Stands
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June 14, 2020, 12:03 PM #50
- Join Date
- Aug 2019
- Location
- San Antonio, TX
- Posts
- 56
Re: REL No. 25 versus G1 MkII, versus 212SE...
[QUOTE=Hounddog;305137]Good to hear. I have always had a pair of stereo subs, so can’t compare the two, but the cables made a significant positive difference in my system. I’m surprised more folks don’t give it a try.
There are some that believe cables don't make a difference. In addition, all systems are different and can have different results. e.g. When I had REL Carbon Limited subwoofers I preferred the low-level connection. With the REL G1 mkII subwoofers I prefer the high-level connection. I just say to each their own.
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
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