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  1. #51
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Mike, I the center comment was an aside, since like Mechnutt caught with his reference to integrating not only subs to two speakers but to a home theater!

    There are two different goals, Music and Movies. You can merge them but I find through empirical research that subwoofers are really best for home theater or bass limited main speakers. In my upcoming living room, I will have both physically in the room. However Music will be played on 2 speakers, amp, preamp- only, and Movies on ann AV Receiver with 5-9 speakers with the subwoofers. I may change my mind.

    It's no easy task integrating subs for movies music in 2 Channel.

  2. #52
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Gotcha and agreed.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Bakoon Audio, Berkeley Audio Design, Block Audio, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Franco Serblin Loudspeakers, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Koetsu Cartridges, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  3. #53
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I think that you can integrate a sub for 2ch music and for HT. You would need to get a sub with a remote control so that you can change the settings of the sub for each. I think there are subs remotes that have a memory for settings. Of course sub placement still comes into play. You will also need a source switcher to connect the sub to an AVR and 2ch preamp unless your preamp has a HT bypass.

    Digital Drive PLUS 12 Inch Subwoofer - Subwoofers
    My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Other systems- Parasound A21 amp,Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid tube DAC and Preamp, Magnepan MMG's, Monitor Audio S1's, PSB B6's, Def Tech Pro Monitor 1000's, Velodyne sub, Adcom GFR-700 AVR, Music Hall 25.2 modified CDP, Cables by Cardas Parsec, AQ Columbia DBS 72v, Wire World.

  4. #54

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o View Post

    It's no easy task integrating subs for movies music in 2 Channel.
    I don't think it is all that hard. Here's my method that has served me well for about 20 years. Start with the sub's volume control off and the crossover control at approximately 10 hz above the -3db point of your stereo speaker pair. Choose some music with what you would view as average bass content and play it. Raise the volume control until you can just barely hear the sub supporting the speakers. Now go to the crossover control and adjust the mid bass rise you created to its lowest level. That's your starting point. Tweak from there after you have accustomed yourself to the new sound with different recordings. There aren't many fuil range speakers that won't benefit from some subwoofer support.

    Typing on this site is laborious. It doesn't keep up with my typing speed - continually drops letters. Is there something I can disable to put some spark in it?

  5. #55
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post

    Typing on this site is laborious. It doesn't keep up with my typing speed - continually drops letters. Is there something I can disable to put some spark in it?
    are you using a Mac or Windows PC?
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  6. #56

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Windows.

  7. #57
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    Windows.
    On my Mac, there are zero issues. I can only suggest trying another browser.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  8. #58

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Well done. Changing browsers solved the problem Pretty sure the site was interacting with the IE spell checker. It works fine with the firefox browser.

  9. #59
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by fmw View Post
    Well done. Changing browsers solved the problem Pretty sure the site was interacting with the IE spell checker. It works fine with the firefox browser.
    IE gives more problems then any other browser I've encountered. It has always been buggy IMO. I like Chrome the best myself.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  10. #60

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I like IE because it is the only browser with one click printing. That saves me some time when I print orders in the morning. It works well with other Vbulletin forums. Firefox will work fine for this site.

  11. #61
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick U View Post
    Very nice set up. I've been tweaking settings on my subs all day. At one point I was ready to swear off subs altogether. Now the system is sounding better than ever. Lots of trial and error but here is what worked best. I turned the subs off then ran the room calibration sweep (Dirac Live) and saved a filter setting as close to flat as possible. Next I set the subs to 56 hertz and adjusted with the volume by ear.

    Love the wheels on your Wilson's. My boys would be racing those across the living room.
    Never had a problem with my kids.

    children-locked-up-in-a-cage.jpeg
    André - - - Keep it simple system
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  12. #62
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    ...And your avatar is also a good representation of that fact Andre.
    ~ Bob ~
    "And it Stoned me to my Soul" Van Morrison
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  13. #63
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I'm using a combination of crossover and DSP (via the Dual Core) and loving the results.
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Bakoon Audio, Berkeley Audio Design, Block Audio, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Franco Serblin Loudspeakers, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Koetsu Cartridges, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  14. #64

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    lol, Mike you've now officially crossed over to the dark side, you'll never have a simple system setup agian....

    Welcome to the club my brother :-)

    Wilson Benesch Eminence /Torus, CH Precision, Grand Prix Monaco V2.0/Thales Statement/Ortofon Century & MC A Mono, Innuos Statement, Gobel Cables, Artesania Exoteryc/Herzan, Torus Power


    Stenheim Alumine 3, Gryphon Essence, VPI HW-40/JMW-12 Fatboy (Gimball) /DS Audio Master:EMM Labs EQ, Rockna Wavedream, Gryphon Cables, Artesania Exoteryc, Audioquest Niagara


    Focal Utopia Headphones/Arche Amplifier, Schitt Yggdrasil/Melco, Bakoon AMP 13R, Kef LS50 II/KC62, Danacable

  15. #65
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by annapolis Raider View Post
    lol, Mike you've now officially crossed over to the dark side, you'll never have a simple system setup agian....

    Welcome to the club my brother :-)


    I've learned the hard way that you can't gear (as in audio gear) yourself to great sound. You must fix the room, ensure perfect, stable power. And most importantly, creating great sound is a multi step approach. Subs are for midrange - not bass. A Crossover for the subs so they don't play too high into the frequency (I found 125hz to be best) and DSP for 150hz down only is the ONLY ONLY ONLY way to fix long, difficult bass nodes. Its a shotgun approach - not rifle.

    The biggest obstacle is overcoming laziness to try these types of things, a willingness to invest hard earned dollars and most importantly, checking preconceived notions at the door.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Avantgarde Acoustics, Avid HiFi, Bakoon Audio, Berkeley Audio Design, Block Audio, Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Chord, Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, FirstWatt, Focal Headphones, Franco Serblin Loudspeakers, Furutech, Fyne Audio Loudspeakers, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Koetsu Cartridges, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Naim Audio, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, SimAudio, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, Vivid Audio Loudspeakers, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  16. #66

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Most Audiophiles will hate hearing this but, the room is the ultimate speed limit on the performance of any gear. The bigger the room generally the higher the speed limit. I don't care what gear you buy, a bad room with trump the performance of perfectly good gear every time. In the long run, actually measuring and attempting to fix the issues will always be cheaper than saying "well that didn't work, I'll try some different gear"

    It was very interesting at this year's CES when you actually had some good examples of BIG room sound, with the Focal Grande Utopia setup and the Perfect 8 setup. I heard from more than a few people had never heard sound like that from a stereo. There's a reason, its called Physics.

    Wilson Benesch Eminence /Torus, CH Precision, Grand Prix Monaco V2.0/Thales Statement/Ortofon Century & MC A Mono, Innuos Statement, Gobel Cables, Artesania Exoteryc/Herzan, Torus Power


    Stenheim Alumine 3, Gryphon Essence, VPI HW-40/JMW-12 Fatboy (Gimball) /DS Audio Master:EMM Labs EQ, Rockna Wavedream, Gryphon Cables, Artesania Exoteryc, Audioquest Niagara


    Focal Utopia Headphones/Arche Amplifier, Schitt Yggdrasil/Melco, Bakoon AMP 13R, Kef LS50 II/KC62, Danacable

  17. #67
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    +1

    Well said, especially checking preconceived notions at the door.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    I've learned the hard way that you can't gear (as in audio gear) yourself to great sound. You must fix the room, ensure perfect, stable power. And most importantly, creating great sound is a multi step approach. Subs are for midrange - not bass. A Crossover for the subs so they don't play too high into the frequency (I found 125hz to be best) and DSP for 150hz down only is the ONLY ONLY ONLY way to fix long, difficult bass nodes. Its a shotgun approach - not rifle.

    The biggest obstacle is overcoming laziness to try these types of things, a willingness to invest hard earned dollars and most importantly, checking preconceived notions at the door.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Jock

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

    ---------

    House: Naim ND555/2PS, Naim 552, Naim 500, Studer A80/Doshi V3, Magico M2s, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Lumina IC/SC, Shunyata Everest and Omega PCs.

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  18. #68
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick U View Post
    Very nice set up. I've been tweaking settings on my subs all day. At one point I was ready to swear off subs altogether. Now the system is sounding better than ever. Lots of trial and error but here is what worked best. I turned the subs off then ran the room calibration sweep (Dirac Live) and saved a filter setting as close to flat as possible. Next I set the subs to 56 hertz and adjusted with the volume by ear.

    Love the wheels on your Wilson's. My boys would be racing those across the living room.
    Thanks Rick.. The Wheels are the easiest way to get them temporarily setup. According to Wilson, you shouldn't leave them on the castors when they've been setup because the woofers aren't designed to be at the height they are with the castors. I can attest they're correct, once I put them on the spikes, the bass cleaned up a lot and was actually deeper and tighter.

    I'm still a believer in not using an active crossover. I do agree that time alignment is a big issue without one. It's a damned if you, damned if you don't scenario. Without active crossovers the highs and mids keep musicality (at least from my experience with the Bryston). With active xovers bass does integrate a better, but you lose all the goodness of a pure sounding source with that crossover in the signal path. I'm interested in trying something else, but at some point the issue becomes moot when I consider price. Here's what I mean: If I spend $15-20K on a crossover, I could easily just upgrade my Sasha's to Alexia's for that price (plus just a bit more, but hey it's not that much more). For it to be worth it, the most I'd be willing to spend would be about $4-6K.

    Here's how it looks now.



    And in "Disco" mode with my Philips Hue lights (totally off-topic, but they're fun as heck)

    Ref System: Wilson Alexx on Stillpoint Ultras w/Base, dCS Rossini & Upsampler & Clock, Audio Research REF 160S, REF 6SE, WW Platinum Everywhere, Roon
    Office System: B&W N802D2, NAD M10
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  19. #69
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Great setup. The way you have the sub in the pics, you can manually adjust time alignment by moving it forward and backward a small amount at a time. Somebody told me a long time ago it was where the cone starts not the front exterior that matters. ???????? I play with it until it sounds right.

    YAY for Phillips Hue lights. they are soooooo much fun. I have a whole light bar w 10 bulbs above my chair and 2 behind my subs to play with when I'm listening.

    photo.JPG

    Edit - pic is upside-down ???????? I'll work on that.
    Jock

    If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters.

    ---------

    House: Naim ND555/2PS, Naim 552, Naim 500, Studer A80/Doshi V3, Magico M2s, 2 Magico Q-Sub 15s, Lumina IC/SC, Shunyata Everest and Omega PCs.

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  20. #70
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Love it Jock. That's a heck of a light bar. Hope you have it bolted to the rafters!! I just replaced all our recessed lights with their new R30 bulbs. Very cool. Now if I could get a wall mounted keypad to control them that would be a home-run.

    Bryan

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post
    Great setup. The way you have the sub in the pics, you can manually adjust time alignment by moving it forward and backward a small amount at a time. Somebody told me a long time ago it was where the cone starts not the front exterior that matters. ???????? I play with it until it sounds right.

    YAY for Phillips Hue lights. they are soooooo much fun. I have a whole light bar w 10 bulbs above my chair and 2 behind my subs to play with when I'm listening.

    photo.JPG

    Edit - pic is upside-down ???????? I'll work on that.
    Ref System: Wilson Alexx on Stillpoint Ultras w/Base, dCS Rossini & Upsampler & Clock, Audio Research REF 160S, REF 6SE, WW Platinum Everywhere, Roon
    Office System: B&W N802D2, NAD M10
    Living Room System: B&W N804D, NAD M10, Velodyne DD+10
    Bedroom: Dynaudio Focus 160, NAD M10, Velodyne DD+10

  21. #71
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    . A Crossover for the subs so they don't play too high into the frequency (I found 125hz to be best) and DSP for 150hz down only is the ONLY ONLY ONLY way to fix long, difficult bass nodes. Its a shotgun approach - not rifle.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    So you let your Subs take over and play 125hz and down?
    2 Channel: Sonus Faber Elipsa's, JL sub, McIntosh 501 amps, McIntosh tuner, pre-amp, CD player, Wire World. Pro-ject TT.

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  22. #72
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I've never found an active crossover that doesn't negatively affect the sound quality of the mains. If your system is resolving and accurate enough, anything you put inline can (and typically does) negatively affect the sound quality.

    There are a lot of great articles on how to get a subwoofer to align with the phase of your mains. JL has a series of 3 articles and there is a 3rd party Website that discusses how to do it. Essentially, you have to plug the ports on your mains (they act as essentially a 2nd speaker per channel), and once you do that you can get your phase aligned. From there it's a matter of picking the right x-over freq and then levels. So suffice it to say, I've figured out how to integrate subs into my setup seamlessly. After that, I went and changed my whole system, upgraded my amps to the 2000 series, my Sashas to Alexias and my F110's to a pair of HGS-18's (beasts) and I couldn't be happier.

    The articles are named:
    Adding a Home Audio Subwoofer – JL Audio Help Center - Search Articles.pdf
    Aiming With White Noise.pdf
    Aligning the Phase.pdf

    They even have several noise loops you can download to play to use for this exact purpose. Some of this info can be found at https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...-Audio-Support. If you can't find the other's, I'll gladly post them here if you ask.
    Ref System: Wilson Alexx on Stillpoint Ultras w/Base, dCS Rossini & Upsampler & Clock, Audio Research REF 160S, REF 6SE, WW Platinum Everywhere, Roon
    Office System: B&W N802D2, NAD M10
    Living Room System: B&W N804D, NAD M10, Velodyne DD+10
    Bedroom: Dynaudio Focus 160, NAD M10, Velodyne DD+10

  23. #73
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I use a REL Gibraltar 2, crossed over at 40Hz to add a subtle "bloom" to my TAD CR-1's.

  24. #74
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingRT10 View Post
    If you are going to use a sub in a 2 channel system, do yourself a favor and purchase an active crossover.
    Tacking a sub on at the bottom of your full range speakers, is a comlete disaster. It muddles the bass on certain Cd's and will only sound good on Cd's that you have the sub balanced for them alone.

    (I have SF Elipsa's and JL subs)
    A long read but it echo's your sentiments.


    almost everything you ever wanted to know about subwoofers
    by Barry Ober
    http://soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm

  25. #75
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by radioactive View Post
    I've never found an active crossover that doesn't negatively affect the sound quality of the mains.
    I just posted on this in another thread so I will not repost, see link below.

    https://www.audioshark.org/showthrea...094#post297094

    In short, there may be a way to do it in your room, but often the crossover on the sub will invert phase, you have to invert it back to zero not 360!

  26. #76
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I use a JL Audio CR-1 crossover. JL's T/S group has a specific procedure to properly volume and phase align your sub and crossover using a crossover point of 80Hz. Using JL's crossover correctly phase aligned will significantly enhance the mains mids and highs, while providing a low end only a few esoteric speakers with separate bass towers can match.
    ________________________________
    Len
    Acoustic Frontiers Acoustic Design media room; Raidho D3; Boulder 1160; JL Audio F212v2; EMM Labs DV2; EMM Labs XDS1v2 (transport); JL Audio CR-1; Ansuz Mainz8 D-TC; Solidtech ROS; Nordost & Ansuz cabling & resonance control.
    http://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5013

  27. #77
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by LenWhite View Post
    I use a JL Audio CR-1 crossover. JL's T/S group has a specific procedure to properly volume and phase align your sub and crossover using a crossover point of 80Hz. Using JL's crossover correctly phase aligned will significantly enhance the mains mids and highs, while providing a low end only a few esoteric speakers with separate bass towers can match.
    I read a white paper from one it's designers recently, apparently to do it right one sends subwoofer signal through and delays the mains.

    The internal speaker crossovers time and phase change plus different frequencies travel at different rates or something like that.

    It's complex, and the unit is supposed to make it simple.

  28. #78
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Fundamentally a crossover allows the low bass to be removed from the mains removing a big source of vibration. It also frees up the stereo amp from having to reproduce the most demanding frequencies.

    I've read and communicated with the Sound Doctor, he knows from where he speaks.
    ________________________________
    Len
    Acoustic Frontiers Acoustic Design media room; Raidho D3; Boulder 1160; JL Audio F212v2; EMM Labs DV2; EMM Labs XDS1v2 (transport); JL Audio CR-1; Ansuz Mainz8 D-TC; Solidtech ROS; Nordost & Ansuz cabling & resonance control.
    http://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5013

  29. #79
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Fundamentally a crossover allows the low bass to be removed from the mains removing a big source of vibration. It also frees up the stereo amp from having to reproduce the most demanding frequencies.

    I've read and communicated with the Sound Doctor, he's a wise man.
    Last edited by LenWhite; March 16, 2020 at 06:59 PM. Reason: Duplicate, sorry.
    ________________________________
    Len
    Acoustic Frontiers Acoustic Design media room; Raidho D3; Boulder 1160; JL Audio F212v2; EMM Labs DV2; EMM Labs XDS1v2 (transport); JL Audio CR-1; Ansuz Mainz8 D-TC; Solidtech ROS; Nordost & Ansuz cabling & resonance control.
    http://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5013

  30. #80
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by LenWhite View Post
    Fundamentally a crossover allows the low bass to be removed from the mains removing a big source of vibration. It also frees up the stereo amp from having to reproduce the most demanding frequencies.

    I've read and communicated with the Sound Doctor, he's a wise man.
    Must be an echo in here.......haha.

    He says it straight out that the controls on the sub woofer will only add more delay to an already delayed and out of phase subwoofer. Being 360 out of phase, as in measuring well on a computer screen isn't going to help things in reality.

  31. #81
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Sorry about the echo - lol: No question a crossover is necessary for proper integration of a subwoofer.
    ________________________________
    Len
    Acoustic Frontiers Acoustic Design media room; Raidho D3; Boulder 1160; JL Audio F212v2; EMM Labs DV2; EMM Labs XDS1v2 (transport); JL Audio CR-1; Ansuz Mainz8 D-TC; Solidtech ROS; Nordost & Ansuz cabling & resonance control.
    http://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5013

  32. #82
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by kach22i View Post
    Must be an echo in here.......haha.

    He says it straight out that the controls on the sub woofer will only add more delay to an already delayed and out of phase subwoofer. Being 360 out of phase, as in measuring well on a computer screen isn't going to help things in reality.
    Regardless of time delay isn't 360º out of phase actually in phase?
    2Ch: Sumiko Blackbird, Rega RB300 (modified), VPI HW-19 (modified), ARC SP-9MKIII, DBX 223SX, Dyna MKIII (radically modified), Magnepan 1.7, Dual 12" DIY TL subs, 2 bridged Crown XLS-402's, 14" HP laptop/2GB USB HDD, Emotiva XDA-2

  33. #83

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeESP9 View Post
    Regardless of time delay isn't 360º out of phase actually in phase?
    2 channel system and subs.

  34. #84
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeESP9 View Post
    Regardless of time delay isn't 360º out of phase actually in phase?
    Under test conditions of a steady tone maybe.

    Under conditions of music there will be a time lag.

    I've read that some people find this time lag to be pleasing as it adds a sense of depth and space.

    Others are sensitive to the timing inaccuracies.

    I suspect that because I like panel speakers and open baffle speakers such time delays would just mix all the better with my dipolar speakers, but I cannot say for sure.

    Just saying being out of phase 360 may not be the end of the world. Worse things like being 90 degrees out of phase I suppose.

  35. #85
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.



    I've never employed an active x-over but it's interesting how some of you reach some of your conclusions. I don't find integrating a sub to the mains a disaster but rather quite the opposite Although I do find integrating and tuning subs a potential royal pain in the ass as it is perhaps the most difficult and tedious thing to accomplish. But it can and must be done.

    I recently installed a second Rythmik E15 subwoofer on the left to match the one on the right. The one on the right I'd been fine-tuning for several years and had just gotten it soooo fine-tuned just days before installing the second sub.

    Everything about the 2nd sub is identical to the first in the way of symmetry to within 1/4", cables, custom footers anchoring it rock solid to the subflooring, mass-loading, each on its own dedicated 20 amp outlet, line, circuit, the settings, etc.

    Regardless, since installing the 2nd sub I've spent just a bit of time attempting to fine-tune both subs (identically) and as things stand, I do not consider the subs as fine-tuned as could be but for now I call it close enough.

    BTW, I'm rather pleased with the Rythmik subs' performance. But only after much fine-tuning. The subs are mated to a pair of full-range VMSP RM-40 speakers and I've got the subs' x-over set around 84Hz. And though each main speaker has two 9" inch woofers plus a 9" passive radiator I still find the RM-40's bass to be the speaker's weakest link.
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  36. #86

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post

    Great video!
    Awesome presence/life sensation.



    I share your dilemma.

  37. #87
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spock View Post
    Great video!

    Awesome presence/life sensation.

    I share your dilemma.
    Thanks, Spock. Hope you're doin' well.
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  38. #88
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post


    I've never employed an active x-over but it's interesting how some of you reach some of your conclusions. I don't find integrating a sub to the mains a disaster but rather quite the opposite Although I do find integrating and tuning subs a potential royal pain in the ass as it is perhaps the most difficult and tedious thing to accomplish. But it can and must be done.

    I recently installed a second Rythmik E15 subwoofer on the left to match the one on the right. The one on the right I'd been fine-tuning for several years and had just gotten it soooo fine-tuned just days before installing the second sub.

    Everything about the 2nd sub is identical to the first in the way of symmetry to within 1/4", cables, custom footers anchoring it rock solid to the subflooring, mass-loading, each on its own dedicated 20 amp outlet, line, circuit, the settings, etc.

    Regardless, since installing the 2nd sub I've spent just a bit of time attempting to fine-tune both subs (identically) and as things stand, I do not consider the subs as fine-tuned as could be but for now I call it close enough.

    BTW, I'm rather pleased with the Rythmik subs' performance. But only after much fine-tuning. The subs are mated to a pair of full-range VMSP RM-40 speakers and I've got the subs' x-over set around 84Hz. And though each main speaker has two 9" inch woofers plus a 9" passive radiator I still find the RM-40's bass to be the speaker's weakest link.
    Yes, I too believe that subs are necessary to complete most systems.
    I do question your setup in trying to mirror match the exact location of your subs.
    If you look into multiple sub setup/placement you find many approach it as placing subs in non symetrical locations. Doing so helps to to smooth the bass, working with the rooms peaks and nulls for better integration.
    A good read on this can be found from Audiokenisis/James Romeo on their "Swarm" subwoofer system.
    This may or may not be helpfull in your application but it does shed some light on a different approach.
    My System:
    Lumin A-1
    Joule Electra LA150 Signature Plus
    Pass XA30.5
    Line Magnetic 845ia
    JMR (Reynaud) Offrande Supreme V2
    18" Open Baffle Subs
    Cables: Teo Audio, Cerious Tech, Fusion Audio.
    Two dedicated 20 Amp circuits. Shunyata Hydra. EP2050
    DIY bass traps and custom curved diffusors.

  39. #89
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jadedavid View Post
    Yes, I too believe that subs are necessary to complete most systems.
    I do question your setup in trying to mirror match the exact location of your subs.
    If you look into multiple sub setup/placement you find many approach it as placing subs in non symetrical locations. Doing so helps to to smooth the bass, working with the rooms peaks and nulls for better integration.
    A good read on this can be found from Audiokenisis/James Romeo on their "Swarm" subwoofer system.
    This may or may not be helpfull in your application but it does shed some light on a different approach.
    I'm unsure how to respond here. Either you

    1. Watched the video I provided and dislike what you've heard so you're suggesting alternative options.
    2. You didn't watch the video and prefer non-symmetrical configs and suggesting your preferred method.
    3. You like reading all the ways others strive to achieve a superior bass and you're just tossig out another option.

    Regardless, in my limited research and experience I find it rather difficult to discern who knows what they are talking about when it comes to high-end audio in general and especially when it comes to achieving a superior / musical bass. Everybody sounds good on paper but few seem able or even willig to actually demonstrate a superior / musical bass.

    In my case, since I only recently acquired a 2nd sub, though aware of both options, the symmetrical option just seemed to make more sense to me. I could have chosen the wrong option but I'm rather pleased thus far, especially since I've yet to do any painstaking fine-tuning with the pair. So far, I think I spend maybe 30 min or 45 min at most doing any tuning and I'm impressed enough that I've made a satisfactory choice but perhaps not the best choice.

    Below is a sample of what I consider a musical bass. You've got a better suggestion, by all means show me, don't tell me. Again, everything can sound good on paper but it's another thing to actually demonstrate it. Like the fella' says, talk is cheap.

    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  40. #90
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    No, I did not watch your videos as I personally find on line videos to be very subjective.
    You truly may have found the best place for your subs, in your room, to your liking.
    As to showing you, If you look at the AMROC room mode calculator you can see where the peaks and nulls appear in any given room.
    It is my understanding that placing two or more transducers in the same peak/null location has minimal additive effect. Thus I referenced multiple sub placement from Duke LaJune AKA "The Swarm". It has received accolades from The Absolute Sound.
    Some find this approach beneficial.
    If you enjoy the placement you have then that's great, just enjoy.
    My System:
    Lumin A-1
    Joule Electra LA150 Signature Plus
    Pass XA30.5
    Line Magnetic 845ia
    JMR (Reynaud) Offrande Supreme V2
    18" Open Baffle Subs
    Cables: Teo Audio, Cerious Tech, Fusion Audio.
    Two dedicated 20 Amp circuits. Shunyata Hydra. EP2050
    DIY bass traps and custom curved diffusors.

  41. #91
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jadedavid View Post
    No, I did not watch your videos as I personally find on line videos to be very subjective.
    You truly may have found the best place for your subs, in your room, to your liking.
    As to showing you, If you look at the AMROC room mode calculator you can see where the peaks and nulls appear in any given room.
    It is my understanding that placing two or more transducers in the same peak/null location has minimal additive effect. Thus I referenced multiple sub placement from Duke LaJune AKA "The Swarm". It has received accolades from The Absolute Sound.
    Some find this approach beneficial.
    If you enjoy the placement you have then that's great, just enjoy.
    And what in high-end audio isn't very subjective?

    So you like to hypothesize? Nice. But isn't that even far more subjective and a bigger waste of everybody's time than listening to music?
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  42. #92
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    And what in high-end audio isn't very subjective?

    So you like to hypothesize? Nice. But isn't that even far more subjective and a bigger waste of everybody's time than listening to music?
    Enjoy your music, as I have previously stated. Or perhaps you missed that part.
    My System:
    Lumin A-1
    Joule Electra LA150 Signature Plus
    Pass XA30.5
    Line Magnetic 845ia
    JMR (Reynaud) Offrande Supreme V2
    18" Open Baffle Subs
    Cables: Teo Audio, Cerious Tech, Fusion Audio.
    Two dedicated 20 Amp circuits. Shunyata Hydra. EP2050
    DIY bass traps and custom curved diffusors.

  43. #93
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    And what in high-end audio isn't very subjective?

    So you like to hypothesize? Nice. But isn't that even far more subjective and a bigger waste of everybody's time than listening to music?
    See also post #9 in the "re: DSP and Parametric EQ" thread.
    My System:
    Lumin A-1
    Joule Electra LA150 Signature Plus
    Pass XA30.5
    Line Magnetic 845ia
    JMR (Reynaud) Offrande Supreme V2
    18" Open Baffle Subs
    Cables: Teo Audio, Cerious Tech, Fusion Audio.
    Two dedicated 20 Amp circuits. Shunyata Hydra. EP2050
    DIY bass traps and custom curved diffusors.

  44. #94
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by jadedavid View Post
    Enjoy your music, as I have previously stated. Or perhaps you missed that part.
    Thanks, jade. Much appreciated and don't forget... The hypothesizing mind is a terrible thing to waste - especially on others.
    "The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt, the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. No, wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy" -me

  45. #95
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stehno View Post
    Thanks, jade. Much appreciated and don't forget... The hypothesizing mind is a terrible thing to waste - especially on others.

    How does the saying go? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
    Perhaps with all your wisdom you may wish to write a book so the rest of us can learn from your vast knowledge and experience. Just saying.
    Or is that hypothesizing?
    My System:
    Lumin A-1
    Joule Electra LA150 Signature Plus
    Pass XA30.5
    Line Magnetic 845ia
    JMR (Reynaud) Offrande Supreme V2
    18" Open Baffle Subs
    Cables: Teo Audio, Cerious Tech, Fusion Audio.
    Two dedicated 20 Amp circuits. Shunyata Hydra. EP2050
    DIY bass traps and custom curved diffusors.

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2 channel system and subs.

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