Thread: Olympics doping

1 in 7 athletes over the past 10 years were doping:

BBC Sport - Leaked IAAF doping files: Wada 'very alarmed' by allegations

"According to Ashenden, the files show that athletics is now in the same "diabolical position" as cycling during the Lance Armstrong era."

wow, wow, wow.

I am not surprised. It's not about the sport and friendly competition any more, it' JUST about winning.

At least Phelps only Smoked his Dope

So what. Drugs are here to stay.

Drugs should be legal. Let them do whatever it takes to get better and better. Better coaches, better vitamins, better diets, better drugs.

There are some downsides to steroids, but they're just part of the price you may have to pay to get into the record books. It's no different than risking breaking your neck doing a spinning dismount from the balance beam or uneven parallel bars.

I'm dead serious.

Personally, I suspect pharmaceutical steroids used correctly can be more beneficial than harmful. On the other hand, who can forget the East German women swimmers.

No surprise there! Wouldn't be surprised the number is closer to 5 out of 7 that dope up unfortunately. Were there is money, power and glory people will try to cheat. Drugs can only be detected for a short period of time after being taken so it's pretty easy to take drugs nowadays and pass the tests as testing is only done in competition for amateur sports and with advance warning from the association for professional sports. The sports federation and conglomerate that own franchises do not want their athletes to be caught due to negative press, they have seen what cycling has gone through, so they make sure they don't get caught.

The exception to this is cycling where athletes have to tell their whereabouts on a continual basis, they are tested in and out of competition, during and off season, at any time of day (including the night). Lastly the Federation keep profiles of all relevant blood and biological markers for each cyclist, any variation out of the norm is considered doping. The funny thing is they still try to cheat, the latest one Tom Danielson this morning, they just try to be more creative by micro dosing. I'm forced to say it is working as they catch less and less.

I used to think like Gary, let them all be equally doped up but I found a few problems to that approach. Not all athletes get the same improvement in performance through the use of PED's (performance enhancing drugs) is the first, some athletes actually do worse on drugs than not. Then there are many direct and indirect death caused by drugs, there used to be a time where cyclist would be found dead in the morning their blood being too thick due to EPO use ( it's well recorded that cyclist wake up at night and exercise to get the blood flowing when they felt arrhythmia). There are evidence of continued illegal substance abuse after (sometimes during) their sports careers, there is strong evidence that points to the fact that athletes don't know where to draw the line between PED's and the other illegal drugs. Lastly and most important is do we really want to teach our kids to value cheats? I for one don't want to promote those values. Right now it's hidden and the powers to be are making sure that it's not well known but if it came out to the light of day I'd be curious to see how many kids would be playing soccer with their parents blessing, same for hockey, basketball and all the other sports if it was known that all professional athletes were doped up.

Exercise is great for the body and mind, as far as I'm concerned lets increase the fight in all sports to make sure they eradicate PED's. Cycling as found a way to drastically reduce the cheats with their testing procedure and Biological Passport so why don't other sport do it, it's the money I say!

Those in the area know this is such as gross oversimplification as to be ridiculous. Drugs only having a short half-life? Some perhaps. But most tests are not for the primary drugs but their metabolites that stay around for a lot longer time.

And the same goes with some of the statements here. Gary perhaps you might like to tell us about the development of testosterone and it's anabolic derivates in the '40s and '50s. And BTW, do you think PEDs/steroids all work the same way and have the same safety? Hardly. Not to mention there are water and oil based anabolic steroids. Probably more of what is being discussed especially in the case of endurance athletes probably has zip, nada, zero to do with PEDs too and more to do with Epogen and its derivatives and blood doping.

Right now this is all innuendo. Saying something looks higher is total BS. There is so much going on in drug testing that people seem to be unaware of. Does anyone know what passport testing is? How about phthalate testing? And do people realize that the US, Canada and UK have the strictest testing of all countries? Sure there are cheaters and there will always be.


And there are other things more sophisticated going on like gene doping. Whether it works is another story. Not to mention PEDs are actually old news and the new drugs are probably Myotstatin inhibitors. (aside from those who try microdosing but they are being successfully caught.)

Olympics do we even need them the risk of a bomb or worse. The countries that cheat by doping . The cost to put a Olympics on. I just wonder is it worth it.

If you want to reduce doping a couple of ideas one better testing two if a person is proven to be doping he she is banned forever along with their couch. Their country is banned from that Olympics and the next. All Metals won by that country that year are void. Make it that tough and a lot less will cheat. Couches and Countries are as much to blame as the person doing the doping . Just my humble IMO

Or as Gary says pump them full of rocket fuel shove a candle up their back side and let them go.

Originally Posted by Garth

. . . . Or as Gary says pump them full of rocket fuel shove a candle up their back side and let them go.

I don't think I said exactly that! but just legalize it.

Originally Posted by GaryProtein

I don't think I said exactly that! but just legalize it.

That's a total cop out and something only a non-athlete or someone who doesn't know any Olympic athletes would say. (and I was an aspiring Olympian in my day.) I know quite a few Olympians and none support your statement. In fact, the number of Americans caught is infinitesimally small compared to the total number of athletes. In fact, it's just like cases of voter fraud here; nothing has been proven but lots of accusations. In fact, nothing that would hold up in court, not to mention the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

Originally Posted by KeithR

1 in 7 athletes over the past 10 years were doping:

BBC Sport - Leaked IAAF doping files: Wada 'very alarmed' by allegations

"According to Ashenden, the files show that athletics is now in the same "diabolical position" as cycling during the Lance Armstrong era."

wow, wow, wow.

DISTANCE athletes, not sprinters and Field eventers. Not to say that doping aint rife there too, but the headlines are conflating.

Originally Posted by BlueFox

Personally, I suspect pharmaceutical steroids used correctly can be more beneficial than harmful. On the other hand, who can forget the East German women swimmers.

Its all about micro-dosing now. Plus combined with Soviet-era techniques, ie combo with SYSTEMIC enzymes to control mini-inflamations from heavy training...you have a winner. Yes, you too can become Oly champ. loL

Originally Posted by RedSectorA

No surprise there! Wouldn't be surprised the number is closer to 5 out of 7 that dope up unfortunately. Were there is money, power and glory people will try to cheat. Drugs can only be detected for a short period of time after being taken so it's pretty easy to take drugs nowadays and pass the tests as testing is only done in competition for amateur sports and with advance warning from the association for professional sports. The sports federation and conglomerate that own franchises do not want their athletes to be caught due to negative press, they have seen what cycling has gone through, so they make sure they don't get caught.

The exception to this is cycling where athletes have to tell their whereabouts on a continual basis, they are tested in and out of competition, during and off season, at any time of day (including the night). Lastly the Federation keep profiles of all relevant blood and biological markers for each cyclist, any variation out of the norm is considered doping. The funny thing is they still try to cheat, the latest one Tom Danielson this morning, they just try to be more creative by micro dosing. I'm forced to say it is working as they catch less and less.


Exercise is great for the body and mind, as far as I'm concerned lets increase the fight in all sports to make sure they eradicate PED's. Cycling as found a way to drastically reduce the cheats with their testing procedure and Biological Passport so why don't other sport do it, it's the money I say!

Huh? Athletics is the MOST tested sport! Countries test, WADA tests and the IAAF directly test athletes OOC.
The biggest names gets tested the most (IC and OOC) but they never test positive until years later, if ever.

There has been bio-passports for years now and samples of Oly podium athletes since 2000 or 2004 have been stored for retesting with more spohisticated methods, so that retroactive DQs can take place. Athletes have to always make available their whereabouts and if they miss 3 out of competition (OOC) surprise tests for any reason, there is an automatic suspension.

What is missing is a collective WILL to relentlessly enforce the existing rules and for the corrupt agendas to end, most certainly that of WADA. I recall figures for WADA when Dickk OPound was inchanrge in about 2006 when the total budget was $27m and the amount actually spent in Testing was less than $3m. HQ running expenses on the other hand were more than $11. Makes sense, as Waldorf-Astoria hotel bills dont run cheap. LoL

Originally Posted by Garth

Olympics do we even need them the risk of a bomb or worse. The countries that cheat by doping . The cost to put a Olympics on. I just wonder is it worth it.

If you want to reduce doping a couple of ideas one better testing two if a person is proven to be doping he she is banned forever along with their couch. Their country is banned from that Olympics and the next. All Metals won by that country that year are void. Make it that tough and a lot less will cheat. Couches and Countries are as much to blame as the person doing the doping . Just my humble IMO

Or as Gary says pump them full of rocket fuel shove a candle up their back side and let them go.

Your suggestion is in violation of NATURAL justice.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Those in the area know this is such as gross oversimplification as to be ridiculous. Drugs only having a short half-life? Some perhaps. But most tests are not for the primary drugs but their metabolites that stay around for a lot longer time.

And the same goes with some of the statements here. Gary perhaps you might like to tell us about the development of testosterone and it's anabolic derivates in the '40s and '50s. And BTW, do you think PEDs/steroids all work the same way and have the same safety? Hardly. Not to mention there are water and oil based anabolic steroids. Probably more of what is being discussed especially in the case of endurance athletes probably has zip, nada, zero to do with PEDs too and more to do with Epogen and its derivatives and blood doping.

Right now this is all innuendo. Saying something looks higher is total BS. There is so much going on in drug testing that people seem to be unaware of. Does anyone know what passport testing is? How about phthalate testing? And do people realize that the US, Canada and UK have the strictest testing of all countries? Sure there are cheaters and there will always be.


And there are other things more sophisticated going on like gene doping. Whether it works is another story. Not to mention PEDs are actually old news and the new drugs are probably Myotstatin inhibitors. (aside from those who try microdosing but they are being successfully caught.)

TUEs help a lot....Therapeutic USE exemptions. Check out which athletes use them the most and target those.

Originally Posted by Garth

Olympics do we even need them the risk of a bomb or worse. The countries that cheat by doping . The cost to put a Olympics on. I just wonder is it worth it.

I'm going to have to agree with this also. It seems like a joke anymore. When I grew up, no Professional Athletes were allowed to compete. Now it's all Pros in the games.

The next Summer Olympics will be great for Swimmers, who will be training and swimming in raw sewage. How does a place like that even get picked for hosting if it's not safe to compete?

Then they just announced Beijing, a warm weather city, will be hosting Winter Olympics and every event will be away from the city with man-made snow. How is that even fair to a competing skier? And how do cities where it is not cold enough to have Winter get picked to host a Winter Olympics?

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

I'm going to have to agree with this also. It seems like a joke anymore. When I grew up, no Professional Athletes were allowed to compete. Now it's all Pros in the games.

The next Summer Olympics will be great for Swimmers, who will be training and swimming in raw sewage. How does a place like that even get picked for hosting if it's not safe to compete?

Then they just announced Beijing, a warm weather city, will be hosting Winter Olympics and every event will be away from the city with man-made snow. How is that even fair to a competing skier? And how do cities where it is not cold enough to have Winter get picked to host a Winter Olympics?

Wow Avery Brundidge still lives. And Olympic athletes starved to death to train and compete. Yeah right, lived on nothing. I know. That's what I want to continue.

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

. . . Then they just announced Beijing, a warm weather city, will be hosting Winter Olympics and every event will be away from the city with man-made snow. How is that even fair to a competing skier? And how do cities where it is not cold enough to have Winter get picked to host a Winter Olympics?

I'm just glad it ISN'T in the US.

Let some other country foot the bill and take the other risks of bringing crowds of people together.

Any belief that it's a great honor to host the Olympics is greatly misguided.

They should build a permanent stadium in Greece and ALWAYS do it there.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Wow Avery Brundidge still lives. And Olympic athletes starved to death to train and compete. Yeah right, lived on nothing. I know. That's what I want to continue.

I had to look him up, but yes it does look like I identify with him on some points, like amateurism for sure. What fun is is watching the same Pro Athletes that we see all the time while there are thousands of aspiring young athletes trying to compete and "Become a Pro Athlete" later in life?


""As president, Brundage fought strongly for amateurism and against commercialization of the Olympic Games, even as these stands came to be seen as incongruous with the realities of modern sports. His final Olympics as president, at Munich in 1972, was marked by controversy: at the memorial service following the murder of 11 Israeli athletes by terrorists, Brundage decried the politicization of sports and, refusing to cancel the remainder of the Olympics, declared "the Games must go on". Although Brundage's statement was applauded by those in attendance, his decision to continue the Games has since been harshly criticized, and his actions in 1936 and 1972 seen as evidence of anti-Semitism. In retirement, Brundage married a German princess; he died in 1975.""

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

I had to look him up, but yes it does look like I identify with him on some points, like amateurism for sure. What fun is is watching the same Pro Athletes that we see all the time while there are thousands of aspiring young athletes trying to compete and "Become a Pro Athlete" later in life?


""As president, Brundage fought strongly for amateurism and against commercialization of the Olympic Games, even as these stands came to be seen as incongruous with the realities of modern sports. His final Olympics as president, at Munich in 1972, was marked by controversy: at the memorial service following the murder of 11 Israeli athletes by terrorists, Brundage decried the politicization of sports and, refusing to cancel the remainder of the Olympics, declared "the Games must go on". Although Brundage's statement was applauded by those in attendance, his decision to continue the Games has since been harshly criticized, and his actions in 1936 and 1972 seen as evidence of anti-Semitism. In retirement, Brundage married a German princess; he died in 1975.""

Since you weren't aware of Brundage until just now, I'm confident in saying that Brundage's idea of amateurism might not be in line with your own. It is well known among those who followed the Olympics history closely that Brundage was a hypocrite who pushed to maintain strict amateurism while aggressively profiting handsomely from it. In fact, it can be reasonably argued that he pushed to maintain amateurism to maintain control over the athletes for the purpose of allowing him to profit from their ventures. He couldn't have profited as such legally under the present system. For the record, I'm uneasy about the naked professionalism of today's Olympic athletes, but at least they are not suffering years of hardship to pursue their dreams while being quickly forgotten about after their careers were over, with a few notable exceptions. They are also not being exploited for profit without at least profiting themselves. Almost no one connected with the Olympics wants to be associated with Brundage at this point, even most of his former allies.

As far as doping is concerned, this surprises no one who follows the Olympics and Track and Field in particular. If you applied the doping standards of Pro Cycling and Track & Field to any popular professional team sport, such as Football, Soccer, and Baseball, a lot more players in those leagues would get popped. The point is that cyclists and track athletes get popped more in part because they have stricter standards to adhere to. For instance, if you take enough Benadryl, you will flunk a cycling or T&F doping test. So don't get a nasty head cold without telling the governing body. Even if you disclose the illness and remedy ahead of time, you're not in the clear if they determine they don't like the test results anyway. https://www.erowid.org/pharms/diphen..._testing.shtml
Drug Information Group

Asindc,

You are so right...

Doping, the USADA test about every sport you can think of, including bowling, dance sport etc..I would say every sport has someone taking PED

Originally Posted by wisnon

Huh? Athletics is the MOST tested sport! Countries test, WADA tests and the IAAF directly test athletes OOC.
The biggest names gets tested the most (IC and OOC) but they never test positive until years later, if ever.

Based strickly on USASA data for 2014 ,from the sports I checked, the athletes that were tested the most on average were................. triathletes

Athlete Test History | U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA)


There are a number of factors which renders the fight to doping hard, one being new drugs being developed without any way to test, what should be on the list (AFAIK sodium bicarbonate is not on the banned list but is known in buffering lactic acid), TUE (therapeutic use exception- a fair number of pro cyclists are on bronchodilator TUE so it does raise a concern) to name a few but I can't fathom stopping the fight if not for the kids.

True story that happened a few months ago; as coach is in a kids cycling club we have a number of kids who just ride for fun but some of them want to try to live the dream. One kid we have been training for a couple of years was offered and he accepted a contract in a junior team, he's presently 16 years old. The team has an annual budget in the low 6 figures so you can see they are serious and expecting results. His year started all right but after 2 months he dropped his training a notch, kids will be kids, and finding excuses for his coach as to why he hasn't been on the ball. Anyways on one such race he was dropped while going up a hill and his excuse was that he could get enough air in his lungs so low and behold his coach of the day told him he had asthma and gave him a bronchodilator (been riding with the kid long enough to know he doesn't suffer from asthma). Don't know and don't care how the coach got it but he should be shot! Anyways the kid gets home and tells his mom the he has asthma and that is why he didn't do as well as he thought, mom went livid and didn't know how to deal with the situation. Fortunately he stopped using that pump. Since then the team kinda dropped him and he's feeling like a pile of crap, if he didn't have a good support group around him he would certainly be PED material to get his "career" going. At the end of the day is he not pro material and he never will be.

Is this story uncommon, from what I have seen in cyclist that have potential and plateau, no. Should it be left alone, hell no! Remember it's hard as hell for a kid who is used to winning (and seeing himself having a professional career) to start losing as competition becomes sharper while climbing through the ladders. Quite tempting to take the shortcut, anyways at that age they think they are invincible so they'll be fine they think.

And now let's not talk of parents trying to live their athletic dreams through their kids, think of the pressure the kid is going through.

Anyways the more they can do to curb PEDs in sports the better.

Originally Posted by RedSectorA

Based strickly on USASA data for 2014 ,from the sports I checked, the athletes that were tested the most on average were................. triathletes

Athlete Test History | U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA)


There are a number of factors which renders the fight to doping hard, one being new drugs being developed without any way to test, what should be on the list (AFAIK sodium bicarbonate is not on the banned list but is known in buffering lactic acid), TUE (therapeutic use exception- a fair number of pro cyclists are on bronchodilator TUE so it does raise a concern) to name a few but I can't fathom stopping the fight if not for the kids.

True story that happened a few months ago; as coach is in a kids cycling club we have a number of kids who just ride for fun but some of them want to try to live the dream. One kid we have been training for a couple of years was offered and he accepted a contract in a junior team, he's presently 16 years old. The team has an annual budget in the low 6 figures so you can see they are serious and expecting results. His year started all right but after 2 months he dropped his training a notch, kids will be kids, and finding excuses for his coach as to why he hasn't been on the ball. Anyways on one such race he was dropped while going up a hill and his excuse was that he could get enough air in his lungs so low and behold his coach of the day told him he had asthma and gave him a bronchodilator (been riding with the kid long enough to know he doesn't suffer from asthma). Don't know and don't care how the coach got it but he should be shot! Anyways the kid gets home and tells his mom the he has asthma and that is why he didn't do as well as he thought, mom went livid and didn't know how to deal with the situation. Fortunately he stopped using that pump. Since then the team kinda dropped him and he's feeling like a pile of crap, if he didn't have a good support group around him he would certainly be PED material to get his "career" going. At the end of the day is he not pro material and he never will be.

Is this story uncommon, from what I have seen in cyclist that have potential and plateau, no. Should it be left alone, hell no! Remember it's hard as hell for a kid who is used to winning (and seeing himself having a professional career) to start losing as competition becomes sharper while climbing through the ladders. Quite tempting to take the shortcut, anyways at that age they think they are invincible so they'll be fine they think.

And now let's not talk of parents trying to live their athletic dreams through their kids, think of the pressure the kid is going through.

Anyways the more they can do to curb PEDs in sports the better.

Anyways the more they can do to curb PEDs in sports the better.

well said

This way over my pay grade and nothing to do with audio I am with drawing any thing I wrote is IMO only and not my area of knowledge .

Interesting?

CBC.ca report: "IAAF denies ignoring suspicious doping test results". Here's a
reader's response:

"This push to the utmost limit of the human body has,
sadly, a clinical side to it. Supplementation and doping are divided only by a
very thin line. It is no surprise that some countries will use any means
necessary to get their athletes on the podium. In some cases, their methods will
neither trigger a positive or negative. Anyone who has done lab work will tell
you why this falls in a grey area as far as interpreting results.

Then
there is the regulation. You can't ban an athlete for a test when there is no
official rule on the substance he/she used. The process is long, the substance
must be identified, then tested. The process for detection needs to be
established and perfected. The governing body must then agree to either ban it
or not.

This gives the opportunists that wriggle room to take advantage
of. By staying ahead of the system, they counter it completely.

My real
concern is, are the athletes master of their own bodies or are they being
coerced into taking untested treatments".

Years ago, a lab tech once told me that 85% of the benefits of PEDs could be had by perfectly legal food supplementation.

The idea was to understand nutrition and bio-chemistry and to ingest PRECURSOR foodstuff. Certain Omega oils in the right combination and doses, mexican yams and other extracts that aid in the production of natural testosterone. Progesterone for the protection and longevity of free ENDOGENOUS androgens in the bloodstream, etc. Some of this stuff I guess would be activated by first pass thru the liver.

Endogenous means that the metabolites wont flag any test as being alien to the body and the only potential issue would be that test/profile where levels would naturally rise over time and could flag a bio-passport ratio and trigger a false positive. Nothing illegal now or ever about endogenous hormones and proper nutrional execution.

I think the problem is that most of the PED predisposed athletes are too lazy to do the research and too undisciplined to implement a proper nutrional plan? Myles, can you comment on this?

Originally Posted by wisnon

Years ago, a lab tech once told me that 85% of the benefits of PEDs could be had by perfectly legal food supplementation.

The idea was to understand nutrition and bio-chemistry and to ingest PRECURSOR foodstuff. Certain Omega oils in the right combination and doses, mexican yams and other extracts that aid in the production of natural testosterone. Progesterone for the protection and longevity of free ENDOGENOUS androgens in the bloodstream, etc. Some of this stuff I guess would be activated by first pass thru the liver.

Endogenous means that the metabolites wont flag any test as being alien to the body and the only potential issue would be that test/profile where levels would naturally rise over time and could flag a bio-passport ratio and trigger a false positive. Nothing illegal now or ever about endogenous hormones and proper nutrional execution.

I think the problem is that most of the PED predisposed athletes are too lazy to do the research and too undisciplined to implement a proper nutrional plan? Myles, can you comment on this?

No, that stuff is old wives tales. Like Russian deer antler velvet. And a host of crap. Did you ever see Bigger, Stronger, Faster?

Take Tyler Hamilton. Best shape of his life and he is being passed like he is standing still by those doing drugs. And don't forget the drug's have multiple benefits including a few on the nervous system that is rarely talked about. For athletes, the effect of PEDs is far from just building muscle. And they help even in building muscle in many different ways.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

No, that stuff is old wives tales. Like Russian deer antler velvet. And a host of crap. Did you ever see Bigger, Stronger, Faster?

Take Tyler Hamilton. Best shape of his life and he is being passed like he is standing still by those doing drugs. And don't forget the drug's have multiple benefits including a few on the nervous system that is rarely talked about. For athletes, the effect of PEDs is far from just building muscle. And they help even in building muscle in many different ways.

Don't they create a little "Shrinkage" also?

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

Don't they create a little "Shrinkage" also?

Not necessarily.

Isn't this just the good old "cat & mouse" game? The whole doping thing is so old now. When it happened in baseball, and records that stood for decades were broken, I became very jaded about professional sports. Then, one has to wonder whether it happened in golf with T Woods. How did he go from a skinny kid to a line backer, in such a short time?

With the Olympics, you would hope things are held to a higher standard. But they aren't. How do we know that countries, Governments themselves are no behind these events?

The Governing Olympic committee, the IOC, is at a cross roads. Do they allow some "safe" forms of doping and essentially let the genie out of the bottle or do they continue this endless charade of a cat and mouse game?

If you carefully examine public opinion after a doping incident, its interesting how people rarely point fingers at the athletes or their country, but rather at the IOC for not doing a better job. They are in a lose/lose situation.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Not necessarily.

It's proven that steroids in males cause :

• Prominent breasts
• Baldness
• Shrunken testicles
• Infertility
• Impotence

Not to mention

• Severe acne
• Increased risk of tendinitis and tendon rupture
• Liver abnormalities and tumors
• Increased low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (the "bad" cholesterol)
• Decreased high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol (the "good" cholesterol)
• High blood pressure (hypertension)
• Heart and circulatory problems
• Prostate gland enlargement
• Aggressive behaviors, rage or violence
• Psychiatric disorders, such as depression
• Drug dependence
• Infections or diseases such as HIV or hepatitis if you're injecting the drugs
• Inhibited growth and development, and risk of future health problems in teenage

And then you have the Human growth Hormones

Human growth hormone

• Joint pain
• Muscle weakness
• Fluid retention
• Carpal tunnel syndrome
• Impaired glucose regulation
• Cardiomyopathy
• High cholesterol (hyperlipidemia)
• Diabetes
• High blood pressure (hypertension)

If these people want to kill themselves with drugs go for it, but don't do on the sports field.

And Hamilton also took the performance-enhancing drug EPO and lost his medals. His quote " “We were fully delinquents, if not criminals. If there was one product that we could almost not do without, it was EPO.”
Read more at Tyler Hamilton on Postal Service drug cheats: 'We were delinquents' - VeloNews.com

Originally Posted by CPP

It's proven that steroids in males cause :

• Prominent breasts
• Baldness
• Shrunken testicles
• Infertility
• Impotence

Not to mention

• Severe acne
• Increased risk of tendinitis and tendon rupture
• Liver abnormalities and tumors
• Increased low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (the "bad" cholesterol)
• Decreased high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol (the "good" cholesterol)
• High blood pressure (hypertension)
• Heart and circulatory problems
• Prostate gland enlargement
• Aggressive behaviors, rage or violence
• Psychiatric disorders, such as depression
• Drug dependence
• Infections or diseases such as HIV or hepatitis if you're injecting the drugs
• Inhibited growth and development, and risk of future health problems in teenage

And then you have the Human growth Hormones

Human growth hormone

• Joint pain
• Muscle weakness
• Fluid retention
• Carpal tunnel syndrome
• Impaired glucose regulation
• Cardiomyopathy
• High cholesterol (hyperlipidemia)
• Diabetes
• High blood pressure (hypertension)

If these people want to kill themselves with drugs go for it, but don't do on the sports field.

And Hamilton also took the performance-enhancing drug EPO and lost his medals. His quote " “We were fully delinquents, if not criminals. If there was one product that we could almost not do without, it was EPO.”
Read more at Tyler Hamilton on Postal Service drug cheats: 'We were delinquents' - VeloNews.com

Aromatase inhibitors
hCG

Effects vary depending on PED.

Supra physiological doses.

They still have no idea what the active form of HGH actually so what are they referring to?

Just a tip of the iceberg of the naïveté.

Like the myths don't squat past parallel or let your knees go past your toes. It might be wrong but if it's repeated a million times, it becomes a fact. Not to be argumentative but have you actually seen the research papers or at best read a review. We know about all the problems with reading reviews. Not to mention much of the research is downright crap.

Ok for some reason won't let me edit- not to mention the studies often quoted are anecdotal and that doesn't fly in today's scientific world.

Myles, I am forced to agree with you and in my former company we made r-HCG, trialled aromatase inhibs for reproductive Health and also made rec HGH. All from Rx market.

I guess in a way we could have been consisdered a perfect PED company. LoL. Only topical testosterone was missing.

Originally Posted by wisnon

Myles, I am forced to agree with you and in my former company we made r-HCG, trially aromatase inhibs for reproductive Health and also made rec HGH. All from Rx market.

I guess in a way we could have been consisdered a perfect PED company. LoL. Only topical testosterone was missing.

The future is myostatin inhibitors.

Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

The future is myostatin inhibitors.

is there any science to support this as compared to humans who eat a healthy low-calorie and low-fat diet, along with exercising regularly, already have low myostatin level.

PS, I could not edit either, weird.

Originally Posted by CPP

is there any science to support this as compared to humans who eat a healthy low-calorie and low-fat diet, along with exercising regularly, already have low myostatin level.

PS, I could not edit either, weird.

I think he meant for Oly grade athletes who train way and above what normal people would do.

Originally Posted by wisnon

I think he meant for Oly grade athletes who train way and above what normal people would do.

but is there any science that supports myostatin inhibitors

You mean with reference to its efficacy as a PED or at least a MoA that could support that conjecture?

Dunno, but perhaps Miles does.

One other point, your term science is very general. It could mean experimentation or it could mean clinical trials, with or without bio-markers, in vitro activity, preclinical receptor hits or even just animal studies.

do you mean some of that or all?

Originally Posted by CPP

but is there any science that supports myostatin inhibitors

Belgian Blue cattle and knock out gene studies. Did u see the picture of that genetically engineered dog. Normal but 2X the muscle.

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Originally Posted by Myles B. Astor

Belgian Blue cattle and knock out gene studies. Did u see the picture of that genetically engineered dog. Normal but 2X the muscle.

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Saw the one with the two rats

Originally Posted by CPP

Saw the one with the two rats

Remember gene expression is just like a car's accelerator and brake. Some gene products accelerate and others inhibit. Genes that control life<-->death. Genes that promote growth and genes that inhibit growth. Oncogenes whose activity produces cancer and tumor suppressor oncogenes whose absence promotes cancer. Take that foot off the brake and voila, more muscle growth.

Actually same goes with nervous system. There are stimulatory and inhibitory nerves to muscles.