Thread: What's next after Sasha's ??? A new endeavor

I've been using my Wilson Sasha's for almost 5 years now and I reckon that they offer plenty of qualities, mostly on the audiophile side.

I'm now looking for a new pair of speaker with the following criterias:

* size shall be not larger than Sasha's, ideally.

* the make and finish shall be too notch. It's not a question of technologies inside, but more the pleasure of owning a perfectly well thought and executed product.

* New speakers shall match perfectly with my Accuphase A-65 class A amplifier.

* I want to retain the following positive attributes of the Sasha's ie. High level of transparency, excellent sound stage, bass well controled which is not exciting my 29 m2 room (with 3.5 m, high celling and very solid walls), really great PRAT.

* The point I miss the most with the Sasha's is a lack of 'presence', immediacy and sense of 'freedom' for the Music. The Wilson speakers propose an intellectual way of rendering the musical feeling. It is up to me to make the effort to listen. What I'm looking for is a more immediate connection to the Music, having no effort (even inconscient) to do and being immersed into the musical event. In one word, despite lots of great audiophile qualities, the Sasha's are musically too "introverted" for my new tastes.

* The other improvement point shall be on timbres. Despite a good linearity, I can now hear the disparity of materials used for each drivers in the Sasha speaker. I need something more 'seamless' on timbres such what Vivid Audio, Zellaton, (somehow TAD as well) can propose.

I do rule out the TAD CR-1 because of its redhish wooden finish that my wife cannot accept (and would be difficult for me probably).

I also rule out all Vivid G series because of the side firing woofers that would not accomodate well my set-up.

The Zellaton are too expensive and seems to sound splendid only with the uber expensive CH Precision electronics.

I'm considering Verity Audio Parsifal or Sarastro, Nola Metro Grand gold, some Rockport, SF Strad (but its size is a killer I guess for my wife), YGA Carmel 2 (Hailey are out of reach financially).

I also need to listen to the Kaiser Chiara, Raidho D1 and D2, Living Voice RW, the new Kharma S7-S, etc ...

By experience, I know that usually I'm not emotionally touched by speakers with Ceramic drivers like Marten or alike. But who knows with Gauder or some other exotic brands.

Obviously Magico could be on my list too with the S3/S5. However I never ever had a satisfying demo with this brand. Maybe I just don't like the Soulution (or souless ...) electronics.

Any suggestions for help ??? I will be in Munich next month and I do look forward finding there my new dream speakers.

Thanks for all positive comments. I do respect and still like very much the Wilson Audio brand but I want to enjoy a deeper immersion into the musical events from each audio track. Actually, the Maxx 3 and Alexandria know how to do that, but not the 'smaller' Wilson models. Thus my willingness for a change of brand.

Take a look/listen to the Rockport Atria and Avior.

Wilson Benesch Vector

As somebody who is very familiar with both Wilson and Accuphase, enjoys the kinda presentation that you're looking for, and just so happens to agree with your synopsis of the Sasha's sound - here's what I'd encourage you to check out:

Tidal 'Piano' loudspeakers. Rich in tone and gorgeous to look at, these slim towers catch my attention every time I hear them. Personally, I feel like Tidals "entry level" Piano is more tonally fleshed out than the rest of their offerings - which tend to rely on ceramic drivers. I think these have the immersive tone that you're looking for, but they won't have the bottom end or dynamic heft of your Sasha. Despite that fact, I'd encourage you to audition these speakers should you ever have a chance to do so.

Rosso Fiorentino 'Siena' loudspeakers. After having just posted a fairly positive 'review' of my Rosso Volterras in a different thread, I'm a touch hesitant to throw up a bunch of superlatives as I don't want to come across as a fanboy. Nonetheless, I can't ignore the fact that these speakers really do offer exactly what you're looking for and then some. The top end is way more natural, extended, and smoother than the Sasha's. The midrange is slightly more open and more tonally rich. The bass is full, quick, and strong. And best of all - they'll work brilliantly with your Accuphase. Ultimately, these speakers will give you the presence and tone that you're looking for, all the while maintaining the kinda linearity that you'd come to expect from a speaker at this level. Oh, and did I mention the numerous fit and finish options? As somebody who used to be in your shoes (more or less), I can't recommend these bad boys highly enough!

And lastly, I'd back XV-1's recommendation. Compression horns throw out a unique sound. While the presentation isn't for everybody, there's no denying that a good horn speaker will do things that many other designs struggle to do. For example: I have a pair of Klipsch RF-7 II's sitting at my abode. You know, the kinda speakers that most audiophiles wouldn't even give the time of day. While I admit that it took me *ages* to get the speakers setup to where the horn would no longer draw attention to itself, I've been very impressed with the sound after the fact. Let me put it this way, whenever I compared them directly to my Wilson Audio Watt Pups, the Klipsch matched and even better their super expensive counterparts in numerous areas. The Klipsch threw a wider soundstage, gave the music a much more realistic sense of scale, delivered a more immediate presentation, and offered a sense of controlled power that ya just don't get with most cone n' dome loudspeakers. Of course, the Wilson's were still better at giving you all of those audiophile nicety's, and they still made for a great listen. Just the same, it's an experience that showcased (to me) just how good big horns with big drivers can be.

Originally Posted by mauidan

Take a look/listen to the Rockport Atria and Avior.

Hi mauidan, I certainly will because I usually like the Rockport house sound especially with the big Altair II.

Hi JackD

A good friend of mine told me excellent feedback regarding the VR speakers.
However, the larger models are certainly not available in France where I live. Maybe in other Eurepean countries ...

Thanks anyway. I will try to experience the VR speakers at the Munich High-End Show next month !

Originally Posted by JackD

Accuphase A-65 Class A you say?

VR-44 Active would be my recommendation. These sound stunning with Valvet A3.5R Class As.

Von Schweikert Audio VR-44 Aktive Loudspeaker | The Absolute Sound

Hi Anatta, no idea what they are, but I will check on the Web and at the coming soon Munich high-end show

Originally Posted by Anatta

Wilson Benesch Vector

Originally Posted by XV-1

When in Munich check out some horn speakers. Immediacy and life are their strengths and should go very well with the Asccuphase amps.

The only issue is there are few horn speakers the size of a Sasha which meet the OP's requirements. Even Cessaro's smallest model; Chopin and the Avantgarde Uno are bigger. Not sure if that's a deal breaker though.

Cellindo, just as a footnote, It is unlikely you would have heard a satisfying show setup with the S3/S5's as firstly they need up to 1000hrs to fully break in and open up, and thier resolution, transparency and linearity mean they can sound good or bad depending on the choice of upstream equipment. Secondly synergy is essential, and the best I found was with Vitus Class A power. Finally Myles Astor will tell you that correct setup is key to allow these speakers to disappear and to get good sound stage depth. Few show setups get it right. An exception was Magico's room at CES 2014 where they won Soundstage's Best of Show with the S3's, Vitus SM-102 mono's & a Vitus MP-L102.

With the above said, based on your requirements (depending on budget), you could also look at the Avalon Eidolon Diamond (a much underrated speaker imho), Marten Coltrane Tenor , Vandersteen 5a Carbon and Vandersteen 7.

Originally Posted by Mike

I was thinking the same thing. I like SOME horn speakers (Volti Vitorri's being one of my favs) - but they are big buggers.

Indeed the horn speakers are usually interesting musically speaking but space constraint is real and high efficiency speakers tend to force a change to low wattage SET tubed amp.
I won't be able to revamp speakers and amp.
Also, aside from Avantgarde, in term of look, fit and finish the horn speakers are sometimes not too stylish ....

Originally Posted by Hyperion

I've got Raidho, Rockport, Kaiser, Wilson Benesch, Kharma and Nola at my disposal as well as having quite a lot of experience with Wilson. I would like to help in any way I can.

Dear Hyperion,

I've already noticed that your carry many brands that are of serious interest to me.
I even said to my wife that we should do a week-end in Stockholm one day. ;-) Who knows ...

I thnk Verity is a likely speaker given the requirements and contrast with the Wilson Sasha. If I was in Europe the small Cessaro horns would need a listen. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Cellindo

Obviously Magico could be on my list too with the S3/S5. However I never ever had a satisfying demo with this brand. Maybe I just don't like the Soulution (or souless ...) electronics.

You can easily try to Accuphase - Magico match and I am confident that you will be delighted. Magico with Soulution is a pretty good sound and I even understand people who have such a combine BUT that's totally not my cup of tea.
These speakers literally love strong amplifiers which are musical and warm a bit, so A class is the best.
For your great A-70 you can try S3 or S5 (maybe Q3, but you can dont like this kind of hyper neutrality).
Ofcourse I say that as an owner of Accuphase/Magico system. Now I just wait for S7 model from Magico and think about pairing A-200 monoblocks with them. (well, unless I will betray Accuphase and go for somethin else like Vitus )

BTW. Hello for everyone. This is my first answer on the forum

Originally Posted by vagabundo

Ofcourse I say that as an owner of Accuphase/Magico system. Now I just wait for S7 model from Magico and think about pairing A-200 monoblocks with them. (well, unless I will betray Accuphase and go for somethin else like Vitus )

BTW. Hello for everyone. This is my first answer on the forum

Welcome to the forum Vagabundom . The S7's paired with A-200 mono's would sound awesome i'm sure. Tell us a bit about your rig? What gear do you own?

Cheers,
Bodhi.

Dear Vagabundo.

Interesting point of pairing Accuphase with Magico. Never ever seen that in a shop or show floor.
Do you think one A-65 would be enough for the S5, as I don't have enough rack space for two (bridged) amps ? The S5 has the right size and price point.

I remain always worried that all Magico speakers sound 'slow' (my experience during shows, so far). They are always uber transparent and have magnificient timbres but notes attack is just not realistic enough compared to live music.

thanks in advance for your comments about speed and only one A-65.

I agree the Magico S series sound best with warm, harmonically rich Class A or A/B amps. A high end audio engineer told me as a rule of thumb the best ss amps tend to be heavy due mainly to their large, robust power supplies. He also told me headline figures such as watts/channel are not a good measure of an amplifiers ability to control a given speaker load. Current and stability are the more important considerations. The Vitus SIA-025 is both heavy (42kg) and extremely efficient (losing <1.5% voltage max tested). Vitus also quote their power figures in "true rms" which is a tougher measurement. No complaints from me!

The S3 is best suited to small to small-medium size rooms imho. The S5 is best suited to medium to medium-large rooms, whilst the S7, M Pro & Q7 are best suited to medium-large and large rooms where they can open up and shine. Agreed, system synergy is key as is room setup. And most show setups are under-done, have poor acoustics, or have mismatched amps, front end equipment or cables (almost like it was an after thought). Magico showed what you can do at CES 2014 with a well thought out setup.

The S5's are certainly fast and transparent, though not quite as much as the Crystal Arabesque with its excellent RAAL ribbon tweeter & faceted glass cabinet, however the S5's are more coherent overall, warmer and have better control, depth & texture from the mids down. Ultimatey the S5 is the more rewarding and exciting speaker overall. Though damn that RAAL tweeter is good! No wonder Magico went on to develop the diamond-coated beryllium tweet.

Bodhi +10
I have nothing else to add!

If we talk about the tweeters alone then I think that the best one is in Raidho Speakers. Extremely fast, 3-dimensional, rich and life like. But overall Magico speakers are the best what I have heard.

Originally Posted by vagabundo

Bodhi +10
I have nothing else to add!

If we talk about the tweeters alone then I think that the best one is in Raidho Speakers. Extremely fast, 3-dimensional, rich and life like. But overall Magico speakers are the best what I have heard.

Sorry my vote goes to the Magnepan ribbon. I'll also add that few have really heard what the Maggie ribbon can do because the cap used limits its sound. Nor should the NOLA ribbon tweeter that extends out to 100 kHz be overlooked either.

Originally Posted by still-one

MBL's tweeters are the most accurate from my perspective.

You don't feel that tweeter has a hardness? Does to my ears.

Since you are going to MUnich, don't miss out on the Zellaton room. Zellaton has a variety of speakers at different price points, and do not need the ultra priced electronics to sound great. I have been using the Zellaton Emotions now for 2 1/2 years and have had great results with inexpensive gear. The Job 225 amp sounds fantastic, I even have a $500 integrated here that sounds wonderful.

My biggest complaint with the amps that I have tried are with the Class D amps. But even that has changed since I now have the $2400 DAC Marashino Class D mono amps hooked up. These amps sounds incredible with these Emotions and are now my favorites.

Zellaton keeps getting many of the top honors at Munich, I am sure this year will be another one of those years.

Originally Posted by ozarktom

Since you are going to MUnich, don't miss out on the Zellaton room. Zellaton has a variety of speakers at different price points, and do not need the ultra priced electronics to sound great. I have been using the Zellaton Emotions now for 2 1/2 years and have had great results with inexpensive gear. The Job 225 amp sounds fantastic, I even have a $500 integrated here that sounds wonderful.

My biggest complaint with the amps that I have tried are with the Class D amps. But even that has changed since I now have the $2400 DAC Marashino Class D mono amps hooked up. These amps sounds incredible with these Emotions and are now my favorites.

Zellaton keeps getting many of the top honors at Munich, I am sure this year will be another one of those years.

These smaller Zellaton are definitively on my Must Audition List. Also I will add the Magico S3 now and the Kharma with their new Carbon drivers.

Originally Posted by kiwi_1282001

With your stated priority of “connecting to the music” in an emotive way and with a preference to drive the speaker with a 60 watt Accuphase A-65 amplifier thereby narrowing the search to efficient circa 90 dB / 1M / 2.82 v with high average impedance designs – I encourage you to audition the Nola KO loudspeaker. Don’t be put off by its low price tag, yes, it less than ½ the price of your current Wilson Sasha’s and perhaps not as pleasing to the eye – but I’ve found this loudspeaker to be unfailingly musical. I’ve also had the pleasure of auditioning some of Nola’s grand reference speakers and they are capable of greater incision and visceral impact but do not deliver more satisfaction (IMHO).

I DO like the Nola brand and in particular the Baby Grand model which is, unfortunately, out of my financial reach. I will try to audition some less expensive models including the KO's.

Originally Posted by Mike

There are many great brands, and many great choices. But what I read into your comments is that you are looking for an efficient musical speaker, a speaker with soul, a speaker that can capture the passion of the moment the music was created, as opposed to the "audiophile sounds" type speaker that checks all the audiophile boxes of bass control, separation, using the latest man made materials, etc. If that's correct, I would suggest:

1. Sonus Faber Anniversario. Sounds like Strads, has a wonderful musical presentation and a soul, but with a more conventional look. I believe they have been discontinued, so you will need to find a used pair. They come in the Violin finish or the Graphite.

Here is a video: http://youtu.be/UgKVT8NYZok

2. Focal Scala V2 Utopia III - very efficient to drive and my wife loves it's look! Maybe yours will too. But, requires a good 350-500 hours of break in. This is what I own in my family room.

3. Sonus Faber Stradivari - yes, it is wide, but it is beautiful, and efficient. A masterpiece from the master. That's what I own in my main listening room and the new "Red" finish is jaw dropping gorgeous.

4. Sonus Faber Olympica III - one of the few newer Sonus Fabers to have recaptured some of the magic of the old Sonus Fabers IMO.

5. See what comes out at Axpona and Munich.

after the love affair with Raidho, seems no one is recommending the brand.

Originally Posted by Cellindo

(...)

* I want to retain the following positive attributes of the Sasha's ie. High level of transparency, excellent sound stage, bass well controled which is not exciting my 29 m2 room (with 3.5 m, high celling and very solid walls), really great PRAT.

* The point I miss the most with the Sasha's is a lack of 'presence', immediacy and sense of 'freedom' for the Music. The Wilson speakers propose an intellectual way of rendering the musical feeling. It is up to me to make the effort to listen. What I'm looking for is a more immediate connection to the Music, having no effort (even inconscient) to do and being immersed into the musical event. In one word, despite lots of great audiophile qualities, the Sasha's are musically too "introverted" for my new tastes.

*
(...)

Properly matched and setup the Wilson Sasha's can have 'presence', immediacy and sense of 'freedom'. A good friend owned a pair in a beautiful metallic orange hue and it had them in lots (he now owns Sasha2). If your system does not show it the justification should be in the system, small details included, room and/or setup.

I have no experience with your Accuphase amplifier and do not know the details of your system - IMHO even cabling is of great importance in order to get the sense of freedom you are asking for. Again IMHO it is very easy to point great speakers - any of us has a preferred and disliked list - but it is not easy to assemble and setup a complete system in a room. And remember that only by chance you will be able to get all you want just by taking out the old speakers and replacing them with new ones. You must have spent a long time and effort optimizing your current system - it is now tuned for your current speakers.

Originally Posted by microstrip

Properly matched and setup the Wilson Sasha's can have 'presence', immediacy and sense of 'freedom'. A good friend owned a pair in a beautiful metallic orange hue and it had them in lots (he now owns Sasha2). If your system does not show it the justification should be in the system, small details included, room and/or setup.

I have no experience with your Accuphase amplifier and do not know the details of your system - IMHO even cabling is of great importance in order to get the sense of freedom you are asking for. Again IMHO it is very easy to point great speakers - any of us has a preferred and disliked list - but it is not easy to assemble and setup a complete system in a room. And remember that only by chance you will be able to get all you want just by taking out the old speakers and replacing them with new ones. You must have spent a long time and effort optimizing your current system - it is now tuned for your current speakers.

Dear microstrip.

I indeed spent 4 - 1/2 years optimizing everything around the Sasha's. The source is a dCS Vivaldi (not much to complain...) with a DiY Linux base PC audio server. All and every cables from power to USB have been very very carefuly selected. Only the room is unchanged as it is the living room and I cannot apply any acoustic treatment.

I now know all the qualities of the Sasha's (and there are many actually). I also know the little weaknesses that bother me at this moment. And I realise how difficult it will be to find a 'better' speaker still matching my system set-up and room acoustic. I also realize that cabling will most certainly some work or complete revamping with a new pair of speakers. The only stability shall be for the amplifier and source, and possibly keeping also my Shindo Monbrison preamplifier.

Originally Posted by Cellindo

Hi mauidan, I certainly will because I usually like the Rockport house sound especially with the big Altair II.

Have you seen this review of the Atria:

SoundStage! Ultra | SoundStageUltra.com (UltraAudio.com) | When the Stars Align: Rockport Technologies Atria Loudspeakers